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  1. #461
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Well you couldn't just add ice lance damage to icicles as it would add more burst in pvp.

    My suggestion would be to give deep freeze a second purpose so that it can be used any time without triggering its cd to launch icicles. However if you had a FoF proc it would act as it currently does, launch icicles and trigger its cd. This prevents you from launching all the big icicles from a deep freeze combo just after the target becomes un-frozen.

    I think blizz would say its too complicated but its a fairly minor thing that would allow for good players to get more out of the spec in pve and pvp.

    I'm not the first person to suggest this but I think my version is a bit different.
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  2. #462
    Dreadlord
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    Nah, if they lower the mastery to 1.5 again, there would be no problem imho. I have spoken to many high rated pvpers (I really don´t know sh*t about pvp) and they all say the same "if frost goes live like this, frost pvp is dead". So if they do nothing further, they will/have to do something once 5.4 and the season is live. The funny thing is, pvp and pve both have the same problem now: Our new mastery is tied too much to casting now and lost it´s burst ability. So once where have to move or a lot or multi dot, frost suffers a huge loss of it´s mastery.
    Giving us control to our icicles will not solve one of this problems, but it would do what you have described: A better player can get more out of the spec. Oh PvPers would hate the df solution, because of spell dispel. Pretty interesting to watch the problems trough a pvp point of view. They really hate the changes ^^
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-08-06 at 08:21 AM.

  3. #463
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @Citizen: agree to all

    I have made more test in Proving.
    I really think it's a good way to test mechanics in controlled environment.

    The fact that it's 463 capped making feel strange: it's difficult to be hit capped. There isn't enough hit and blue gem in our gear actually.

    1. damage feel OK
    2. Icicle feel weak on multi-target.
    3. I have launch a few non-FoF IL to force launch Icicle to some specific target.
    4. Having IL building Icicle would help a lot on movement.
    5. BF-FFB hit like a wet noodle.
    6. not having a glyph for trading IV cooldown & damage (like Combustion/Arcane Power) is a great disadvantage.
    7. where is our burst ?


    On talent/glyph:

    • Mage bomb -- NT is mandatory, LB can be OK but FB isn't usable.
    • L90 -- Invocation is near mandatory, new RoP can be OK but IW can't be proced.
    • Major glyph -- Split is mandatory, Water Elem isn't, IV glyph depend on enemy's group (fast NT Vs fast Icicle)


    For 6.0 :
    If haste won't be to high valued, IV could be change into an hybrid CD - 6%/12% haste buff + 38%/36% mini-bolt.
    And for my previous idea of a release spell on short hasted CD, it could have a less than 20s base duration.
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  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Nah, if they lower the mastery to 1.5 again, there would be no problem imho. I have spoken to many high rated pvpers (I really don´t know sh*t about pvp) and they all say the same "if frost goes live like this, frost pvp is dead". So if they do nothing further, they will/have to do something once 5.4 and the season is live. The funny thing is, pvp and pve both have the same problem now: Our new mastery is tied too much to casting now and lost it´s burst ability. So once where have to move or a lot or multi dot, frost suffers a huge loss of it´s mastery.
    Giving us control to our icicles will not solve one of this problems, but it would do what you have described: A better player can get more out of the spec. Oh PvPers would hate the df solution, because of spell dispel. Pretty interesting to watch the problems trough a pvp point of view. They really hate the changes ^^
    Let me guess, the high rated players you spoke to haven't actually been on PTR trying out mages right? I've pretty much spent 90% of my game time on PTR trying out frost mages and I can safely say that mages is no where bad. Icicles alone can add 100-150k of damage during your burst if you manage to get some frostfire bolts in there.

    Mages will still be able to kill you in a deep while the healer is stuck in a silence. You can still come out from Invisibility and unleash hell upon someone. If you fail, start stack some juicy Icicles for a guaranteed kill the next frozen orb if DR's is reset. Nothing has really changed for Frost Mages in PvP. You can still kill without the Icicles but you should always have them back in your mind since they do help alot during burst.

    What I want blizzard to do is to make the icicles easier to track, would be nice if they added a buff so you could see what time there is remaining on them.
    Last edited by Sprinkler; 2013-08-06 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #465
    Mages will still be able to kill you in a deep while the healer is stuck in a silence. You can still come out from Invisibility and unleash hell upon someone.
    Thats actually bad as we (PVE mages) were promised this was done under premise of gapping PvP burst and decoupling it from PVE problems.

  6. #466
    Dreadlord
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    Nope, talking to guys who get their gladiator title every season - frost mages of course. Why should I talk to players about PTR changes who haven´t been on the PTR? Sorry don´t get your point here. 150k Icicles? With 65% resilience in pvp gear? Sorry I don´t pvp and I don´t want to start a pvp discussion here. If you are happy with the changes and if you are able to perform as usual, I´m happy for you.

    My Icicles hit for ~10 - 12k with 42k SP vs 65% resilience btw
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-08-06 at 02:16 PM.

  7. #467
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    150k Icicle ?
    It's what I can obtain on dummy from a very very good BF-FFB/frostbolt's crit.
    With 40% mastery, it's a 375k crit on FB or FFB. Even in PVE, it's not so common out of burst.
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  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Nope, talking to guys who get their gladiator title every season - frost mages of course. Why should I talk to players about PTR changes who haven´t been on the PTR? Sorry don´t get your point here. 150k Icicles? With 65% resilience in pvp gear? Sorry I don´t pvp and I don´t want to start a pvp discussion here. If you are happy with the changes and if you are able to perform as usual, I´m happy for you.

    My Icicles hit for ~10 - 12k with 42k SP btw
    I dont mean that every single icicle does 150k, but all 5 do that combined. The mages who stream frequently would agree with me is far from dead in 5.4. I know they are still almost as good as we are in 5.3, with the nerfs to hunters in 5.4 mages will be even better. I'm not at home but I can jump onto PTR tonight and post some screenshots if you'd like.

  9. #469
    Dreadlord
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    Don't bother! As I said, if you are happy with the changes, I´m happy for you. As you can see, my Icicles hit for 10k from frobo hits and 20k from frobo crits with 42k SP in 554 gear.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Don't bother! As I said, if you are happy with the changes, I´m happy for you. As you can see, my Icicles hit for 10k from frobo hits and 20k from frobo crits with 42k SP in 554 gear.
    Cant say I am, I want Frost mage playstyle from WOTLK back, that's when mages were alot of fun. Blizzard have slowly taken every bit of that away, and sorry if I might sound aggressive or pissed in my posts(I get that alot from other forums I'm a member in) but im actually not. :-)

  11. #471
    Field Marshal Sombrelune's Avatar
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    Iron Juggernault testing, confirmed that Icicles is a very good mastery... when you have only one target. It was my second or third source of dps ( second when i used NT and third when I used LB) with around 20% of my dps. Of course Frosbolt was my first source of dps.

    I noticed that Frigid blast did 5% of my dps regularly where he did less than 2 % before. Very good 4p

    1 target Icicles shine.
    2 target Icicles shine more
    3 close target it's still ok
    After, the nightmare begins : More NT, More IL ( during frozen orb), less icicles.

  12. #472
    I really really want to be able to turn off the damn icicles hovering above my character, and i would like to be able to track the duration and damage of each icicle being stored.

    But all in all i find this new mastery pretty meh, it's another thing to wind up, no one is going to hold off on to AT double FoF proc to get 5 stacks of icicles, they launch painfully slow via ice lance. AND it has not fixed pvp's burst at all.
    So why did blizzard even bother changing it.

    If arcane wasn't painfully boring now, and i loved arcane in Cata
    If fire wasn't so freaking RNG based and landing an op combustion a such huge part of it's dps
    I wouldn't be playing frost next patch

    FFS fix combustion base it off the last pyro landed and make everyone happy
    Make our water elementals hit for more than a trivial amount
    Make arcane about more than casting for arcane blasts using AM procs and resetting with barrage or evocation it's mind numbing

  13. #473
    Suggestion.
    How would you guys feel if Blizzard (spell) could also generate Icicles?

    I think it could help with grouped up multi target fights as we have lost a fair bit of our bomb damage with this new mastery.
    I would even enjoy dotting up a few targets then flame strike and blizzard. Having shards fall from the sky and shoot from the player would look freaking cool too.

  14. #474
    Dreadlord
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    We brought Juggernault down to ~50 - 45%. Pretty nice fight for frost (short and fast movement required)

    Overall in all tries:

    Frigid Blast (2.3%)
    Legendary Cloak "Essence of Yu'lon" (3.1%)
    Icicles (13.6%) - 4th overall
    Ice Lance (13.7%) - 3th overall

    Our old trinkets proc rate is waaaay lower than before.

    Tried BoH and only got 8% uptime o_O

    AMP DPS and Heal is pretty nice for high sustained damage, but Darkspear is stronger (if meta procs and/or forzen orb is up). Really hope they bring a fix, because Icicles and maybe Waterbolt have to stack this trinket!

    Getting a BF proc at the end of Alter Time always results in a 2p buff loss.

    Frost feels good single target with the new mastery, tier 16 bonuses and glyphs, but as stated gazillion times, there are rarely single target fights nowadays.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-08-07 at 01:22 AM.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Don't bother! As I said, if you are happy with the changes, I´m happy for you. As you can see, my Icicles hit for 10k from frobo hits and 20k from frobo crits with 42k SP in 554 gear.
    I think the 150k Icicles came from a idea on AJ. Something about pooling 5 `BF/Ffb charges before using icelance. FFb has to crit for ~75-80k though (mine is more like 60-65k on ptr in next seasons gear ) you have to be Lucky with procs and lazy dispellers and stall Icelances.
    The thread http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23.../page__st__180
    My own experience in pvp is that you pretty much forget icicles. You rarely shoot more than 1-2 at the time and their average dmg is compareable with living bomb ticks. It feels like a nerf and im pretty sure it is a nerf. More importantly, its a pretty boring playstyle (dot up and fish for procs).
    It is a nerf to fun, but as the lvl 90 talent fiasco have shown, fun is subjective and cant be used as a perimeter when designing video games

    I think i personally would like the Icicles more if they could crit (but ignore generators crit). That would devalue ffb`s as proc generator (since they a guarenteed to give big icicles) and make casting frostbolt feels more worthwhile. It would allso give better on demand burst and play well with shatter. Would be a pve nerf though.

  16. #476
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Or better, make IL generate Icicle and release on FFB.

    ...

    Isn't it what we suggest from the start ??
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  17. #477
    Wow that is awesome so it looks like if you can consistently keep casting it will be an unlimited barrage of ice that consistently cast with u and I noticed a post about the glyph for ice lance maybe changing to allow the icecycles to hit a 2nd target the same way ice lance glyph works now just for icecycles included? If so that will be awesome.

  18. #478
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraedax View Post
    Wow that is awesome so it looks like if you can consistently keep casting it will be an unlimited barrage of ice that consistently cast with u and I noticed a post about the glyph for ice lance maybe changing to allow the icecycles to hit a 2nd target the same way ice lance glyph works now just for icecycles included? If so that will be awesome.
    That's how the glyph works. Icicles cleave like IL/.

  19. #479
    oi41.tinypic.com/2qxxili.jpg
    oi41.tinypic.com/1zpm7ug.jpg

    Just showing some numbers to prove I'm not talking out of my butt

    38% Mastery btw
    Last edited by Sprinkler; 2013-08-07 at 03:32 PM.

  20. #480
    As sidenote: You have magearmor. I know resilience lowers it at the other end but we have to take that in mind.

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