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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    New talent grid:

    Other Changes (mostly just wild ideas, expect frost):

    Changes:

    All:

    - Roling Blood has been removed. Pestilence is the way to spread diseases. MoP made it too easy to spread diseases. I want to replace Unhoyl Blight as well, but i can't think of any replacements for it.

    - Chillblains has been removed from talents and is now a frost passive. Old Desecration has taken it's place.

    - Blood tap has been removed. Runic Empowerement is now a blood and frost passive once again. Runic Corruption is an unholy passive.

    - Replaced Tier 5 with DPS CD's.

    Blood:

    Blood has been split into two talents:

    * Dark Guardian (Tank)

    * Blood (dps) *

    Ps. this is just an idea. Waiting for feedback before i change something here.

    Frost:

    - Removed the Obliterate damage bonus from Might of the Frozen Wastes

    - Reverted Might of the Frozen Wastes to what it was in Cataclysm (has a 45% chance to grant 10 runic power on auto attacks, and a 10% melee damage bonus)

    - Increase Obliterate damage from 230% weapon damage to 260% weapon damage.

    - Removed the Frost Strike damage bonus from Threat of Thassarian

    - Increased Frost Strike damage from 105% to 155%

    - Keep the other parts of Threat of Thassarian, make it work with Necrotic Strike as well.

    - Howling Blast (main target) hits for higher than Obliterate and Frost Strike, but now has a 8 sec CD, Rime reset it's CD (as in Wotlk). This way we'll be using Obliterate primary as the runic power builder, while Howling Blast hits for more, but requiers the use of Obliterate. That way we wont be using Howling blast over Obliterate, but both..

    Unholy:

    - Unholy Frenzy has been removed (due to new dps-tier).

    Some really great ideas and some of them not;
    1) As you said, unholy blight should also be changed to synergise with other t1 talents, also i think old Blood Tap should be replaced with Plague Leech.
    2) Death Zone change is fine.
    3) Desecration is underpowered in that tier for unholy since unholy doesn't use Festering Strike much in PVP, make triggering spells NS,FS,SS (i have no idea about blood). Also i'm not sure about frost if it will ever think about taking Desecration since they will already have Chillbains? And biggest problem for this tier in general is Strangulate is EXTREMELY weak compared to Asphyxiate so Asphyxiate will always dominate this tier. What do they have to do is lowering CD of strangulate to 30 sec, remove rune cost, and reduce its duration to 4 sec. 5 sec stun > 4 sec silence

    4) I liked your idea of Death Siphon,
    5) Hysteria is cool, Remorseless Storm is great, since army of dead is not usable in arena i have no idea about 3rd talent in that tier.

    6) YAY! give me back my hungering cold and screw your remorseless winter.

    Also they need to lower the runic power cost of Frost Strike and also lower Frost Presences FS cost reduction so that Frost will be able to switch to Blood Presence when needed without sacrificing HUGE dps. Like, instead FS is 35 RP and FrostP reduces FS cost 15, FS is 30 and FrostP reduces its cost by 10.


    DKs have so much potential, I don't think we are very underpowered, but we need some changes to make class more attractive and fun to play, without making the class OP, there is so many thing can be improved, but designers are not playing this game, not considering suggestions, and i don't expect any decent change soon.

    Our ridiculous talent design shows how much time they have spent on us.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Djouga View Post
    I feel like, on top of all scaling issues, the rune system itself is obsolete and should be completely reworked in 6.0.
    I think it should work like shadow orbs or soul shards and leave Runic Power to be the actual ressource.
    For example, let's say a DK has one set of 3 runes: he could use them however he wants to increase his damage, his defense or use a special ability.

    Then comes the Runic power:
    Since hunters and rogues have a full bar of ressource available, Runic Power should stay the way it is and go the way of the warrior to be like Rage:
    -Runic power generating abilities (auto attacks or cooldown-based small attacks)
    -Runic power consuming abilities (heavy attacks)
    This would help the devs to smooth out the skills, the rotation and the CDs of both DPS and tank DKs.

    It would also prevent ressource overcapping for both RP and runes, for which we are currently the only class with that kind of issues. (warriors can dump rage easily, same for rogues, same for hunters)

    well this dont sound bad actually been playing DK blood sinds wrath and the rune system is old i hope they do some changes to the runeforging to

    Same Shit Different Day

  3. #223
    That would be so much like warrirorish then.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    New talent grid:

    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=663001


    Other Changes (mostly just wild ideas, expect frost):

    Changes:

    All:

    - Roling Blood has been removed. Pestilence is the way to spread diseases. MoP made it too easy to spread diseases. I want to replace Unhoyl Blight as well, but i can't think of any replacements for it.

    - Chillblains has been removed from talents and is now a frost passive. Old Desecration has taken it's place.

    - Blood tap has been removed. Runic Empowerement is now a blood and frost passive once again. Runic Corruption is an unholy passive.

    - Replaced Tier 5 with DPS CD's.

    Blood:

    Blood has been split into two talents:

    * Dark Guardian (Tank)

    * Blood (dps) *

    Ps. this is just an idea. Waiting for feedback before i change something here.

    Frost:

    - Removed the Obliterate damage bonus from Might of the Frozen Wastes

    - Reverted Might of the Frozen Wastes to what it was in Cataclysm (has a 45% chance to grant 10 runic power on auto attacks, and a 10% melee damage bonus)

    - Increase Obliterate damage from 230% weapon damage to 260% weapon damage.

    - Removed the Frost Strike damage bonus from Threat of Thassarian

    - Increased Frost Strike damage from 105% to 155%

    - Keep the other parts of Threat of Thassarian, make it work with Necrotic Strike as well.

    - Howling Blast (main target) hits for higher than Obliterate and Frost Strike, but now has a 8 sec CD, Rime reset it's CD (as in Wotlk). This way we'll be using Obliterate primary as the runic power builder, while Howling Blast hits for more, but requiers the use of Obliterate. That way we wont be using Howling blast over Obliterate, but both..

    Unholy:

    - Unholy Frenzy has been removed (due to new dps-tier).
    If they split blood into two talents then blood (dps can play as 2h frost does now. While 2h frost and DW frost can play like they should play, with Frost Strike as the main damage skill and more focus on runic power and rapid fast strikes with low downtime and lots of frost damage (as they (espesially 2h) was pre-MOP). I hate what they did to 2h frost in MoP. Blood (dps) can have that playstyle (like it was in Wotlk). The one-skill based 2h frost (heavy Obliterate) doesn't fit Frost. Frost should be mostly about dealing frost damage. 2h frost is soo not frost'ish anymore.


    3) Desecration is underpowered in that tier for unholy since unholy doesn't use Festering Strike much in PVP, make triggering spells NS,FS,SS (i have no idea about blood). Also i'm not sure about frost if it will ever think about taking Desecration since they will already have Chillbains? And biggest problem for this tier in general is Strangulate is EXTREMELY weak compared to Asphyxiate so Asphyxiate will always dominate this tier. What do they have to do is lowering CD of strangulate to 30 sec, remove rune cost, and reduce its duration to 4 sec. 5 sec stun > 4 sec silence
    I feel like CHillblains is by far the best talent for pvp right now. For me it's Chillblains > DA > Asphyxiate. I would probably take Death's Advance or Desecration if they made CHillblains a Frost passive skill.

  5. #225
    I guess you are not playing arenas then? Cuz i haven't seen any DK above 2k rating using anything other than asphyxiate. For RBGs, yes chillbains is better choice than Asphyxiate.

  6. #226
    Good News everyone! /sarcasm off.

    So they now change rppm mechanic proccrates only to only increase with haste if the proc itself does not interact with haste in anyway (so basically flat dmg and no statproccs) which means that ALL current and new rppm trinkets are affected.
    Although they say they will increase the basic proc chance of affected proccs it is a huge nerf as we currently rely on our rppm trinkets.

    So the change to uh pres is a farce, a 20 haste buff to garg is all thats left and bl and uh frenzy are greatly diminished in effectivity as they previously increased rppm proc chances.
    The ultimate reason for this is bringing rppm trinkets in line with normal icd trinkets and currently those non rppm trinkets are really really weak for us as their proccs have ridiculously low uptime and the stronger passive effect can't make up for it.
    Feather is currently far superior to the 4 non rppm trinkets next patch and is especially because of festerblight even superior to their respective heroic versions or at least on par.
    Even for non haste users is this a huge downgrade compared to normal because of our highly increased proc chances comapred to other classes.

    Additional our hast scalign dps wise gets a huge downgrade pushing our mediocre (uh) and really bad (frost) stat scaling even more down, resulting in less gain form additional gear.
    While i normally try to stay optimistic this basically obliterates our left competitiveness and is likely to destroy festerblight completely which the possible exception of pure patchwerk encounters if the increased base proc chances are high enough to keep the feather in a overly good state.

    All in all we will now need really remarkable buffs, possibly in the direction of about 20-30% as our setboni are shit,we are being carried by "overpowered" trinkets currently and our sclaing takes even more damage from this rppm change/nerf.
    Although this number is given that blizz plans to balance meeles and casters alike unlike this content where mages ar ahead 25-30% of every competitive melee with the exception of rogue.
    Yeah that definetly made my day, hope that the class tunings begin soon.
    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Azshara/raikh/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raikh/advanced

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  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Just make increased movement speed baseline... And the frost presence is actually boosting DW way more than 2h; I think it would be a better idea to increase strength instead so both would scale a bit better with gear and both would benefit from this bonus. I think aswell that we don't really need a less cost for DC, instead I'd make SD proc a bit more consistent.
    Yeah, the movement speed increase needs to be made baseline for the class for a couple of reasons. We really do need that extra speed in PvE and it would also help to even out the value of DA as a talent choice in the grid.

    As I mentioned in the post, 2H Frost needs to want Mastery more than it does right now. Something would have to change.

    Unholy already gets a discount on DC, we would just be baking it into UP for the same reason that FS is discounted in FP.

    The main idea is having a PvP Presence that all of the other presences are balanced around. I think it's doable and worth the effort.

  8. #228
    As I mentioned in the post, 2H Frost needs to want Mastery more than it does right now. Something would have to change.
    Yes indeed. 2h frost needs to focus more on Frost damage (Frost Strike mainly, and some Howling Blast), and less on Obliterate.

    Remove this stupid MOP 2h frost playstyle already. Screw the 1-skill playstyle, Obliterate and all about MOP 2h frost!

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    Good News everyone! /sarcasm off.

    So they now change rppm mechanic proccrates only to only increase with haste if the proc itself does not interact with haste in anyway (so basically flat dmg and no statproccs) which means that ALL current and new rppm trinkets are affected.
    Although they say they will increase the basic proc chance of affected proccs it is a huge nerf as we currently rely on our rppm trinkets.

    So the change to uh pres is a farce, a 20 haste buff to garg is all thats left and bl and uh frenzy are greatly diminished in effectivity as they previously increased rppm proc chances.
    The ultimate reason for this is bringing rppm trinkets in line with normal icd trinkets and currently those non rppm trinkets are really really weak for us as their proccs have ridiculously low uptime and the stronger passive effect can't make up for it.
    Feather is currently far superior to the 4 non rppm trinkets next patch and is especially because of festerblight even superior to their respective heroic versions or at least on par.
    Even for non haste users is this a huge downgrade compared to normal because of our highly increased proc chances comapred to other classes.

    Additional our hast scalign dps wise gets a huge downgrade pushing our mediocre (uh) and really bad (frost) stat scaling even more down, resulting in less gain form additional gear.
    While i normally try to stay optimistic this basically obliterates our left competitiveness and is likely to destroy festerblight completely which the possible exception of pure patchwerk encounters if the increased base proc chances are high enough to keep the feather in a overly good state.

    All in all we will now need really remarkable buffs, possibly in the direction of about 20-30% as our setboni are shit,we are being carried by "overpowered" trinkets currently and our sclaing takes even more damage from this rppm change/nerf.
    Although this number is given that blizz plans to balance meeles and casters alike unlike this content where mages ar ahead 25-30% of every competitive melee with the exception of rogue.
    Yeah that definetly made my day, hope that the class tunings begin soon.
    This was a very discouraging read. We need to be honest though, we won't see major damage tuning that we actually need. Its discouraging really because the class is fun to play but our scaling issues will continue every expansion until they do a serious overhaul. Its also hard to ask for that being one of the new classes considering at least three or four other vanilla classes deserve an overhaul as well. Looks like 5.4 Could be my exit from this game after nine years.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    Additional our hast scalign dps wise gets a huge downgrade pushing our mediocre (uh) and really bad (frost) stat scaling even more down, resulting in less gain form additional gear.
    While i normally try to stay optimistic this basically obliterates our left competitiveness and is likely to destroy festerblight completely which the possible exception of pure patchwerk encounters if the increased base proc chances are high enough to keep the feather in a overly good state.

    All in all we will now need really remarkable buffs, possibly in the direction of about 20-30% as our setboni are shit,we are being carried by "overpowered" trinkets currently and our sclaing takes even more damage from this rppm change/nerf.
    You're very conveniently ignoring the fact that every spec in the game is being severely influenced by RPPM trinkets scaling with haste in such a fashion. This will scale everyone back, and it also means they'll be forced to redo number tuning.
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  11. #231
    Yeah every spec loses dps of course, but it impacts us the most, not only because feather carries us, but further more we get much more out of rppm trinkets than other classes because of UH pres and runic corruption increasing rppm procs, furthermore increases unholy frenzy rppm even so, not any class has a haste cd.

    RC gets fixed either way, but thats already a hard hit which needs a dmg buff on its own. Additionally this change is likely to break festerblight which probably wouldn't have been the case without the chnage, because before feather would have been BiS atleast until the very end of the content with 580 trinkets or alteast on par with them.

    The feather granted us a new playstyle which brought us up where we are now and rppm interacted fairly well with us although thorugh a bug. Its currently on par with a core mechnaic and that gets broken with this change.

    There will be buffs but i doubt they'll grant us much as it can easily break pvp as our dmg there is already strong and the gear scaling issue barely exists in pvp.
    Gear won't bring us up anywhere, our setboni won't help us and no trinkets can do that either.
    Blizz was never really good on tuning the dk and i doubt they'll have a masterplan this time. I will see, maybe they surprise me but that sounded pretty much like a deathsentence for us.
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    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raikh/advanced

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  12. #232
    I really don't like being a doomsayer nor an advocate for the worst but with these recent bombshells I really can't see Death Knights coming out as the winners. Even before the bug fix we were in the middle dps-wise. They did/will compensate with the UH true haste thing, yet Frost hasn't had a single change. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the trinket change will affect haste, and with that we'll have an almost abysmal scaling. DW frost is affected the least I suppose, but from what I've heard from the PTR things aren't exactly good as it is.

  13. #233
    Field Marshal Riven's Avatar
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    Fak.

    That's no fun. All stats equally bad now? There's going to have to be some serious number tuning or something..

    Oh, and watch out for the next expac Beta feedback thread for DK's. I really don't want us to get somewhat ignored again, so I'll make one ASAP when it goes up.

    Edit:
    Also grats to Magdelena for getting an item named after them!
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105807
    Last edited by Riven; 2013-08-02 at 03:33 AM.

  14. #234
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riven View Post
    Also grats to Magdelena for getting an item named after them!
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105807
    Thanks It was a huge surprise, and I'm very honoured. Good to see it's well itemised!

    Edit: Also wanted to say that number changes for 5.4 are coming. Patience folks. Remember that a lot of what they're basing this on is current Siege testing, which is why I've emphasised the importance of taking logs when testing encounters. We've only just concluded 10N testing, and there's a heck of a lot to come.
    Keep calm and keep logging.
    Last edited by Magdalena; 2013-08-02 at 05:39 AM.
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  15. #235
    Update!

    New talent grid:

    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=663001


    Class Changes:

    Talent Changes:

    - Roling Blood has been removed. Pestilence is the way to spread diseases. MoP made it too easy to spread diseases. I want to replace Unhoyl Blight as well, but i can't think of any replacements for it.

    - Chillblains has been removed from talents and is now a frost passive. Old Desecration has taken it's place.

    - Blood tap has been removed. Runic Empowerement is now a blood and frost passive once again. Runic Corruption is an unholy passive. (maybe?)

    - Replaced Tier 5 with DPS CD's.

    - New Presences:
    Death presence: New tank presence. Mostly like what blood is now.
    Blood presence: Increases auto-attack damage and critical chance.



    The new tank spec. Blood (current) has been split into 2 talent trees. Blood is now dps while Dark Guardian is the tank spec.

    Design Idea: A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to sustain himself in the face of an enemy onslaught. (current description of blood. Fit's it's new name). The spec is a combination of the current blood spec and a more warlock-like DK.

    Key skills:
    - Death Strike (unholy and frost rune) same as now. Converts runes into detah runes.
    - Dark Strike (death rune) deals shadow damage.
    - Life Siphon (runic Power): Deals 1850 to 2150 Shadow damage to an enemy target, healing the caster for 100% of the damage dealt.
    - Harvest life (Mastery): your Rune Strike and Life Siphon now steals life from the enemy, placing an absorbing shield on you, absorbing x% of the damage dealt.
    - Bone Shield: same as now
    - Death and Decay: same as now
    - Soul Shriek: Deals x Shadow damage to all enemies in a 15 yard cone in front of the caster, silencing them for 5 sec.



    The "new" dps spec. Blood (current) has been split into 2 talent trees. Blood is now dps while Dark Guardian is the tank spec.

    Mostly the same as in Wotlk. healing has been greatly reduced.

    design idea: Much like what 2h frost is now, a hard hitting death king dealing physical damage primary. Some new skills has been added. Some (from Wotlk has not been brought back) . Deals heavy damage on auto-attack as well. Doesn't docus much on diseases.

    Key-skills:
    - Heart Strike is now the Death Strike of it's time (double-rune damage skill. No longer heals). Hart hitting skill (like Obliterate is now)
    - Blood Strike is now the aoe-strike (cleave), aoe-part of it is now granted through a passive skill, learned at level x.
    - Rune Strike: same as now, damage increased. Make it more fun in a way, more unique.
    - New passive skil, Armor Piercing: When you use Heart Strike you have a chance to grant armor piercing, causes you to ignore 50% armor for 5 sec.
    - Death Coil: same as now, + a passive skill to increase it's damage (a little more ranged capabilities).
    - Dancing Rune Weapon: same as now
    - Empowered Rune-weapon: Increases melee damage by x and reduces the coldown of Dancing Rune Weapon by x%.




    MOP changed frost in a bad way. It made 2h and DW play differently, resulting in 2h becomming a 1-skill spec while DW becomming a Howling Blast spammer. Neither of these are good and there has to be a balance between. Howling Blast shouldn't be the main rune-skill, but should be a viable option to Obliterate, dealing great ranged damage. OIbliterate should be the rune-skill to use at melee-range, but shouldn't be as dominant as it is for 2h frost right now. Frost should be more about dealing frost damage, more than 2h is now, and less than DW is now. Less Obliterate and more frost damage for 2h, more Obliterate and less frost damage for DW. A balance between what 2h and DW is like now. Frost should be based around Frost damage, with Obliterate as a strong secondary skill, primary used to build runic power for Frost Strike, and granting the Rime Proc. Frost relies too much on procs as well at the moment, so i'm trying to find a solution to this as well.

    - Might of the Frozen Wastes has been Removed

    - Obliterate damage has been increased from 230% (current) to 260% weapon damage. (to make it better than Howling Blast without Rime proc, and better in melee range)

    - Frost Strike damage bonus from Threat of Thassarian has been removed

    - All melee-skills now hits with off-hand while dual wielding (DW viability)

    - Frost Strike damage has been increased from 105% to 155% weapon damage (more frost damage)

    - New passive skill: Razorice. Same as glyph, but now works with 2h as well. (more Frost Damage)

    - Rime now increases all Frost damage by 20% for your next Howling Blast or Icy Touch (more frost-damage based, Cinderglacier)

    - Killing Machine now increases critical strike chance of your 2 next Obliterate and Frost Strike by 50% (less random)



    - Unholy Frenzy has been removed (due to new dps-tier).


    More to come...
    Please, give me feedback, all constructive criticism is welcome. Tell me what you think of it and what you'd like to change. Some of these changes are probably dumb or OP.
    Last edited by Wrien; 2013-08-03 at 09:24 PM.

  16. #236
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
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    I want old bloodboil back

  17. #237
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurenguard View Post
    I want old bloodboil back
    That's not old bloodboil, that's already bloodboil v2.

    Old BB had no animation other than you "shouting" and the targets erupting. Then they decided to visualize it and gave it the giant blood fog animation that caused targeting issues for everyone but the DK himself and performance issues for a lot of people. Hence it was replaced by the current one.

  18. #238
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    Update!
    Add some passive for blood dk that includes something about armor penetration.
    [For example passive] : Every 5th Heartstrike has a 50% chance to ignore 100% of targets armor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    That's not old bloodboil, that's already bloodboil v2.

    Old BB had no animation other than you "shouting" and the targets erupting. Then they decided to visualize it and gave it the giant blood fog animation that caused targeting issues for everyone but the DK himself and performance issues for a lot of people. Hence it was replaced by the current one.
    I was referring to it as old as it was around at the start of cata and disappeared.
    And yes the v1 sucked even more than the current one.
    Last edited by Of-the-horde; 2013-08-03 at 09:20 PM. Reason: fixed typos

  19. #239
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    That's not old bloodboil, that's already bloodboil v2.
    Technically, that's still older than the current implementation.

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  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    Update!
    If we were to ever receive 4th specs, then I agree that this should be the route they take. I'm sure that bringing Blood dps back would excite a lot of people. But anyway, here is some constructive criticism on a few things:

    I feel very strongly that Rolling Blood should be made baseline and Pestilence removed from the game along with the rest of our first tier of talents. We only have 6 tiers and those talents are taking up precious space.

    Do you mean make the Chilblains "slow" passive for Frost or both the slow and the "root"? If both, then that would be a huge advantage for Frost. Personally, I would like to see the Chilblains "slow" made into a glyph available for all specs. They can do what they want with the "root". Delete it or put it back in the grid.

    Man, I want to play RC with Frost all the time. I'm being spoiled right now with this bug in place. I think the T75 talents have to stay (unless they completely change the rune system). But, they obviously need to be moved to at least T60 for leveling purposes. And after they fix this latest bug, they need to slightly increase the proc time of RC so that it can compete with RE/BT.

    ---

    I'm not so sure you can tie the healing abilities/shield to runic power in such a way. AMS soaking for example would be problematic. Also, let's not dump the generic sounding Rune Strike onto another spec. I would argue that Death Coil is our best looking ability and I think it would be nice to have another spec use it and more often than Unholy.

    I like the idea of Heart Strike being the featured strike for Blood again. Maybe the armor penetration bit could be used in some way for their spec-specific Mastery. That would be fitting.

    I think that Frost would still do too much physical damage (Obliterate) and not enough frost damage. This wrecks our Mastery and would make Frost and Blood dps too similar in design. I like the idea of Rime increasing the damage of whatever you use (HB/IT); I think that could be even higher (50%)? Soul Reaper changed to shadowfrost damage is another place to look. Some other passive like old Necrosis would be another way to increase frost damage without breaking anything.

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