Current issues with Death Knights overall.

[TheSerialSniper]

Blood is the only tank spec with reactive mitigation versus active. Death striking before you take a heavy hit is in-effective compared to after taking a hit, forcing you to tank re-actively to be able to mitigate damage like all the other tanks who can mitigate before getting hit. If the devs need a reason why this is bad all they need to do is count the number of blood tanks that have tanked ra-den and then compare to other classes.

[Mormolyce]

Talents, you can let your cat choose them and, it wont be no difference at all.

That's the way talents are supposed to be. If there were boobytrap talents that gimp you if you take them, they would be pointless.

[Beefkow]

Would add much needed mastery scaling for 2H Frost, but doesn't fix the underlying problem of KM; it'd still be ignored in 98% of all cases. (unless of course Obliterate's damage scaled much better with it)



Would thematically fit Unholy no doubt, I'm just not sure if I like it. Also, that UF duration thing seems pretty out of place there.

Overall I agree with you, the DPS specs' Masteries should be reworked into something more interesting. Whether it's your ideas or something entirely different, I'm not sure.





So you don't want the Mastery to shift toward pet damage because you feel it'd make Unholy too reliant on it, but you'd welcome it if it made Unholy as reliant on pets as Beast Mastery? Not entirely sure what you mean here...

I just don't like the pet play style is what i am saying, but i would welcome it if it did more dmg, and i mean ALOT more dmg.

Its like saying i don't like festerblight and i like standard unholy, but however festerblight is doing more dmg than standard unholy, so i have to do festerblight if i want to do more dmg, does that make more sense?

[Maelstrom51]

That's the way talents are supposed to be. If there were boobytrap talents that gimp you if you take them, they would be pointless.

Well, talents having little to no effect is also pointless.

[SSHA778]

Well, talents having little to no effect is also pointless.

The glass is half full or half empty. What you're stating is simply the opposite viewpoint.

E.g.:
Talents having little-to-no effect means you are free to choose whichever talent you want and not be penalized (i.e., you are not penalized by your choice). Talents having little-to-no effect means they're all equally worthless because none of them is superior (i.e., your choice is irrelevant because there is no gain).

Blizzard wants it so that you are not penalized by your choice; that's their overall goal. I agree that not every tier meets that goal, but some do.

[Schizoide]

Not being penalized is a worthwhile goal, but all talents being equally worthless is not the only way to achieve it.

[Omertocracy]

Like I prefaced. The ideas were while I was delirious. Whether they were good ideas or not is not the point. The point is they were better ideas than we already have because they are interesting. And the duration of UF thing was thrown in because... ... well I don't remember why.

[DarthMetatron]

Well, talents having little to no effect is also pointless.

Exactly like our secondary stats.

You can take no talents, gem all strength, and only reforge hit/expertise and you will not be any worse off than someone who spends a ton of time balancing everything out and perfectly setting up their DK.

Nothing matters. They have killed our class in MoP.

[Tesseh]

Not enough HOT LAZERZ skills. Needs sorting out.

[Wrien]

New talent grid:

http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=663001


Other Changes (mostly just wild ideas, expect frost):

Changes:

All:

- Roling Blood has been removed. Pestilence is the way to spread diseases. MoP made it too easy to spread diseases. I want to replace Unhoyl Blight as well, but i can't think of any replacements for it.

- Chillblains has been removed from talents and is now a frost passive. Old Desecration has taken it's place.

- Blood tap has been removed. Runic Empowerement is now a blood and frost passive once again. Runic Corruption is an unholy passive.

- Replaced Tier 5 with DPS CD's.

Blood:

Blood has been split into two talents:

* Dark Guardian (Tank)

* Blood (dps) *

Ps. this is just an idea. Waiting for feedback before i change something here.

Frost:

- Removed the Obliterate damage bonus from Might of the Frozen Wastes

- Reverted Might of the Frozen Wastes to what it was in Cataclysm (has a 45% chance to grant 10 runic power on auto attacks, and a 10% melee damage bonus)

- Increase Obliterate damage from 230% weapon damage to 260% weapon damage.

- Removed the Frost Strike damage bonus from Threat of Thassarian

- Increased Frost Strike damage from 105% to 155%

- Keep the other parts of Threat of Thassarian, make it work with Necrotic Strike as well.

- Howling Blast (main target) hits for higher than Obliterate and Frost Strike, but now has a 8 sec CD, Rime reset it's CD (as in Wotlk). This way we'll be using Obliterate primary as the runic power builder, while Howling Blast hits for more, but requiers the use of Obliterate. That way we wont be using Howling blast over Obliterate, but both..

Unholy:

- Unholy Frenzy has been removed (due to new dps-tier).

[Deleted]

- Roling Blood has been removed. Pestilence is the way to spread diseases. MoP made it too easy to spread diseases. I want to replace Unhoyl Blight as well, but i can't think of any replacements for it.
- Blood tap has been removed. Runic Empowerement is now a blood and frost passive once again. Runic Corruption is an unholy passive.

Can't agree with that, I'm sorry.

As blood, our snap aggro is already bad enough, we don't need it to be nerfed even more by having to spread diseases via pestilence.

Also, blood tap is very handy when it comes to death strike timing. I've never liked RE for blood, and never will.

Both of these things are very, very important for tanking.

[Rothulean]

Unholy: Increases damage by your pets, guardians, minions, etc. by x%. Also increases the duration of Unholy Frenzy by x%. (base duration lowered to balance)

Unholy's mastery would be far better by simply making SS full shadow.

[Beefkow]

Unholy's mastery would be far better by simply making SS full shadow.

Lol, idk how that is going to work, the higher the mastery... the more the damage becomes converted into shadow? please explain.

However, i am very interested in a way that involves making wimpy strike, more into a "scourge" strike.

[Xevz]

Lol, idk how that is going to work, the higher the mastery... the more the damage becomes converted into shadow? please explain.

However, i am very interested in a way that involves making wimpy strike, more into a "scourge" strike.

I think he means like frost strike, where it does 100% of weapon damage as shadow or something. I kind of agree, the current scourge strike is way outdated where it is weak against plate classes since they removed armor penetration and resistances.

[Clash the DK]

Here is my idea on how to better streamline our presences. This is inspired by Ultimadwarf on the talent grid maker website. This is just a rough example. But the premise is to have one specific presence just for PvP and do away with presence disparity once and for all. The key to this sample design would hinge on Frost as a whole gaining increased value from Mastery, whether through new spec mechanics/design or a new Mastery all together.

Blood Presence - (Blood Tanking) - You assume the presence of Blood, increasing Stamina by 25%, base armor by 55%, rune regeneration by 20%, and reducing damage taken by 10%. Threat generation is also significantly increased. Movement speed is increased by 15%.

Frost Presence - (Frost DPS) - Strengthens you with the presence of Frost, increasing Mastery by 10%, Runic Power generation by 20%, and reducing the cost of Frost Strike by 10 Runic Power. Movement speed is increased by 15%.

Unholy Presence - (Unholy DPS) - You are infused with unholy fury, increasing Haste by 20%, and reducing the cost of Death Coil by 10 Runic Power. Movement speed is increased by 15%.

Death Presence - (PvP) - You assume the presence of Death, increasing Stamina by 25%, base armor by 55%, rune regeneration by 20%, and reducing damage taken by 10%. Maximum Runic Power is increased by 30 and the duration of effects that remove control of your character are reduced by 20%. Movement speed is increased by 15%.

---

Improved Blood Presence - Reduces the chance that you will be critically hit by melee attacks while in Blood Presence by 6%.

[Beefkow]

I think he means like frost strike, where it does 100% of weapon damage as shadow or something. I kind of agree, the current scourge strike is way outdated where it is weak against plate classes since they removed armor penetration and resistances.

So wait, the more mastery the higher the % weapon damage converted into shadow?

So if i had about 6k mastery, i would have 124% physical ------ shadow

12k mastery 148%physical ------ shadow and so forth? that actually sounds interesting.

[Xevz]

So wait, the more mastery the higher the % weapon damage converted into shadow?

So if i had about 6k mastery, i would have 124% physical ------ shadow

12k mastery 148%physical ------ shadow and so forth? that actually sounds interesting.

No just remove the physical damage part. Exactly like frost strike, frost damage except shadow damage. Isn't that how frost works, the mastery increases frost damage and frost strike is all frost damage.

[Beefkow]

No just remove the physical damage part. Exactly like frost strike, frost damage except shadow damage. Isn't that how frost works, the mastery increases frost damage and frost strike is all frost damage.

That is actually what i sorta said, i should be a little more specific, the physical is converted INTO shadow damage, or turned into shadow dmg, so basically if i had X mastery then the damage SS WOULD HAVE ORIGINALLY put out as physical turns into shadow, and then the 25% for each disease ends up increasing the physical turned into shadow portion part so the net result is pure shadow dmg.

[Deleted]

Here is my idea [...].

Just make increased movement speed baseline... And the frost presence is actually boosting DW way more than 2h; I think it would be a better idea to increase strength instead so both would scale a bit better with gear and both would benefit from this bonus. I think aswell that we don't really need a less cost for DC, instead I'd make SD proc a bit more consistent.

[Azerul]

New talent grid:

Other Changes (mostly just wild ideas, expect frost):

Changes:

All:

- Roling Blood has been removed. Pestilence is the way to spread diseases. MoP made it too easy to spread diseases. I want to replace Unhoyl Blight as well, but i can't think of any replacements for it.

- Chillblains has been removed from talents and is now a frost passive. Old Desecration has taken it's place.

- Blood tap has been removed. Runic Empowerement is now a blood and frost passive once again. Runic Corruption is an unholy passive.

- Replaced Tier 5 with DPS CD's.

Blood:

Blood has been split into two talents:

* Dark Guardian (Tank)

* Blood (dps) *

Ps. this is just an idea. Waiting for feedback before i change something here.

Frost:

- Removed the Obliterate damage bonus from Might of the Frozen Wastes

- Reverted Might of the Frozen Wastes to what it was in Cataclysm (has a 45% chance to grant 10 runic power on auto attacks, and a 10% melee damage bonus)

- Increase Obliterate damage from 230% weapon damage to 260% weapon damage.

- Removed the Frost Strike damage bonus from Threat of Thassarian

- Increased Frost Strike damage from 105% to 155%

- Keep the other parts of Threat of Thassarian, make it work with Necrotic Strike as well.

- Howling Blast (main target) hits for higher than Obliterate and Frost Strike, but now has a 8 sec CD, Rime reset it's CD (as in Wotlk). This way we'll be using Obliterate primary as the runic power builder, while Howling Blast hits for more, but requiers the use of Obliterate. That way we wont be using Howling blast over Obliterate, but both..

Unholy:

- Unholy Frenzy has been removed (due to new dps-tier).

Some really great ideas and some of them not;
1) As you said, unholy blight should also be changed to synergise with other t1 talents, also i think old Blood Tap should be replaced with Plague Leech.
2) Death Zone change is fine.
3) Desecration is underpowered in that tier for unholy since unholy doesn't use Festering Strike much in PVP, make triggering spells NS,FS,SS (i have no idea about blood). Also i'm not sure about frost if it will ever think about taking Desecration since they will already have Chillbains? And biggest problem for this tier in general is Strangulate is EXTREMELY weak compared to Asphyxiate so Asphyxiate will always dominate this tier. What do they have to do is lowering CD of strangulate to 30 sec, remove rune cost, and reduce its duration to 4 sec. 5 sec stun > 4 sec silence

4) I liked your idea of Death Siphon,
5) Hysteria is cool, Remorseless Storm is great, since army of dead is not usable in arena i have no idea about 3rd talent in that tier.

6) YAY! give me back my hungering cold and screw your remorseless winter.

Also they need to lower the runic power cost of Frost Strike and also lower Frost Presences FS cost reduction so that Frost will be able to switch to Blood Presence when needed without sacrificing HUGE dps. Like, instead FS is 35 RP and FrostP reduces FS cost 15, FS is 30 and FrostP reduces its cost by 10.


DKs have so much potential, I don't think we are very underpowered, but we need some changes to make class more attractive and fun to play, without making the class OP, there is so many thing can be improved, but designers are not playing this game, not considering suggestions, and i don't expect any decent change soon.

Our ridiculous talent design shows how much time they have spent on us.