1. #1

    The Lack of Everything

    So I was attempting to get some sleep last night, and I began thinking about how the arms warrior is non-existent in pve and the overall disappearance of warriors in pvp. And that is really not that much of a suprise to me.

    (and please excuse my bad use of the English language)
    And btw sorry I cant use links in this post (first time posting), but if you doubt my numbers and data-related stuffs (i like people who question everything), you can find everything in Noxxic-Realistic Dps, Noxxic-Maximum Dps, Icy Veins (the stat priorities), World of Wargrafs (pve and pvp warrior representation) and World of Logs (Dps numbers for ToT bosses)

    If we first look at the warrior from a pve point of view, we can quickly make out why they are dying in pvp,
    First off, if you chose to pve as a warrior, you will probably not get to do anything but dps as a fury warrior. Since what I have experienced is that most guilds who plan to clear the current tier as heroic before it gets outdated probably wont accept a prot warrior simply because they lack the ridiculous tank dps we have now in mists, and most of the prot warriors who do raiding now is most likely a old member of their guild who they most likely wont switch out because of their reputation within the guild. So your left with the choice between arms and fury, which is not that much of a choice at all. Because the scaling issues with arms and fury, fury bypasses arms with some numbers at 510 ilvl, which is achievable through lfr+some valor pieces. So you are left with the fury spec. Dont misunderstand me, I think fury is one of the funniest specs to play in mists, but the numbers you throw out is just too low to be competitive against any other class/spec. But if you take a further look at the max dps for the class (aka against a dummy) the fury warrior is back up at the rank 12 and 13.

    We are suffocating because our movement and re-position is way too slow and awkward, and that is hitting us heavily on any fight with movement. As we all see in the noxxic page for dos rankings, we fury lies pretty much at the bottom with the frost dk. After every target switch/getting out from fire etc. we must wait a couple GCDs to have our rage and other stuffs in place. And this patch blizz chooses to buff arms AoE, which is already our strong side, as we all see from the Tortos log from the World of Logs. If we buff our primary attacks (mortal strike and bloodthirst) then they may get more valued as attacks and not a Plague Strike for frost dks.

    Now that Im done addressing that issue, lets take a step back and take a look at the stat priority for us warriors. As we all know, we dps (arms&fury) warriors will always prioritize crit (arms to a soft cap of 32%) over any other secondary stat. And because of the high crit reliance for fury warriors, it makes them operate extremely badly with low enrage uptime. But now that we almost are at the end of this expansion, fury has cached up with arms and arms is left at a very bad position. And this is inevitable how the two specs works now, having fury depend everything on the crit (if you didnt know our mastery: Unshackled Fury is pretty much a buff to our crit rating) it scales so well that its outdpsing arms with some serious numbers now. So basically poeple will pick arms for their entry blues and switch to fury further in the expac. The fear of having thisare going screwed-up cycle repeat the next expansion is definitely bothering me. One of the ways I think we can fix arms with is giving them more with haste and mastery, just make their mastery and haste scale better. If you are going to buff something, blizz, then please consider this.

    And I really dont think there is anything more from a pve point of view. I will not complain anything about how deterrence, cloak of shadows and ATMS is overpowered, as we all have our strong utility sides (Shattering Throw).

    Now to the pvp part of this post (I dont think there is much to be addressed here):

    We are kited way to easily, blizz. Lets say Im a fury warrior pvping. Just colossus smashed, having stacked 2 Raging blows and all my cooldowns poped. Then the hunter you have been hitting for like 10 seconds goes like: haha, he just poped hes cooldowns, imma kite him till his cooldowns has worn off and then I will stay stationary and kill him just to let him know how low dps he has without his cooldowns. As we all know dps cooldowns have no effect if you cont hit anything. Which brings us to our second issue,

    Fury warriors is just too cooldown-based and easily-kited (the latter is addressed to all pvp warriors) so they can get results anywhere near where unholy dks and ret paladins are now (yes, im still talking about fury). But I wont expect any changes on this simply because the entire spec is built up around this 20-sec Colossus Smash cooldown, and the massive qq after the revamping of the spec will just not be worth it. So serious warrior pvp players is left with one choice outside of Prot pvp, which is arms.

    The somewhat recent pvp resilience buff has hurt us warriors more than others. Now dont misunderstand me, im not one of those who rages in the forums with their ¨pvp isnt fun anymore now that people dont die within 3 GCDs¨ and ¨now every single noob can come into a bg and not die¨arguments. I think the buff of resilience have made pvp more approachable and easier to get into. But the classes who previously could outdps a single healer poping cooldowns and spamming mana-inefficient spells is hurt much more than the ones who couldnt. And especially us warriors, who have had our burst nerfed over and over again this expansion, is left with the choice of either adapt to the new slower pvp style or go and do something else. As we see in the World of Wargrafs pvp distribution site (it was a link here - send your angry letters to (just imagine its a ¨at¨ symbol here)MMOChampion), the participation of warriors in pvp has dropped tremendously. Again, im not saying the resillience buff was wrong, but blizz please give us our burst back.

    One more thing before I go to sleep: Our poor ranged dps consists of Heroic Throw, Storm Bolt (You will probably not choose this talent over Avatar-the-counter-kiting tool), and Dagger Throw (I like how it procs weapon enchants faster than anything else), which is really not that much of a ranged option. You are most likely better off targeting the circle for your Heroc Leap during that time. Which leads us back at our poor counter-kiting discussion

    Now this is everything I have in my little brain that I wanted to share with you guys who randomly stumbled over my article that I choose to post here instead of the battle.net/wow forums. And please remember this is purely my feelings about this class and nothing more. So what do you guys think, please let me know.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by JesseGoesHam View Post
    We are suffocating because our movement and re-position is way too slow and awkward, and that is hitting us heavily on any fight with movement.
    You shouldn't have any problems hitting the bosses in ToT unless it's a monk tank taunting him and even then that problem can be usually solved with clever heroic leap usage.

    Now that Im done addressing that issue, lets take a step back and take a look at the stat priority for us warriors. As we all know, we dps (arms&fury) warriors will always prioritize crit (arms to a soft cap of 32%) over any other secondary stat. And because of the high crit reliance for fury warriors, it makes them operate extremely badly with low enrage uptime. But now that we almost are at the end of this expansion, fury has cached up with arms and arms is left at a very bad position. And this is inevitable how the two specs works now, having fury depend everything on the crit (if you didnt know our mastery: Unshackled Fury is pretty much a buff to our crit rating) it scales so well that its outdpsing arms with some serious numbers now. So basically poeple will pick arms for their entry blues and switch to fury further in the expac. The fear of having thisare going screwed-up cycle repeat the next expansion is definitely bothering me. One of the ways I think we can fix arms with is giving them more with haste and mastery, just make their mastery and haste scale better. If you are going to buff something, blizz, then please consider this.
    How do you get your number for the soft cap? Overpower gives an additional 60% critchance which means you still need 45% crit raidbuffed to have 100% crit chance (60% overpower bonus + 45% crit self - 5% boss crit reduction = 100%). Fury caught up to Arms? Afaik fury was always ahead of Arms.

    As you said Arms has the problem that it doesn't scale well with haste or mastery. Fury on the other hand already approaches a gear level where mastery overtakes crit due to having a 80%+ enrage uptime already.

    And I really dont think there is anything more from a pve point of view. I will not complain anything about how deterrence, cloak of shadows and ATMS is overpowered, as we all have our strong utility sides (Shattering Throw).
    Who is even using Shattering Throw anymore? Not worth it for a 10man and most 25man don't bother with it. I think the last time I used it was in a MSV hc pug during the spirit kings because I didn't trust the priests.

  3. #3
    Fury is middle of the pack. We are not so bad that we get subbed but nowhere near the top. We have certain raid utilities such as skull banner and rally cry which is useful every fight. We have mocking banner and disrupting shout which is useful for mageara and we have mass spell deflect which gets us our raid spot on leishen.

    Hard to justify why you ever need more than 1 fury.. But most 25 man would wish to run with at least 1.

    Now, if you want to top the meters you should roll warlock, Mage. If you wanna top melee meters, it is WW or rogue.

    That's sums it up this tier.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by senturion View Post
    Fury is middle of the pack.
    I see people say this a lot, yet every class has 1 if not 2 dps specs that are better than Fury (all 3 for Locks and Rogues).

    Based off of raidbots 25H DPS chart from the last 2 months

    DKs - Unholy is better, Frost is worse.
    Druid - Both Feral and Boomkin are better.
    Hunter - BM and Surv are better, MM is worse.
    Mage - Arcane and Fire are better, Frost is worse.
    Monk - WW is better.
    Paladin - Ret is better.
    Priest - Shadow is better.
    Rogue - Assassin, Subtlety, and Combat are all better.
    Shaman - Enhance is better, Ele is equal.
    Warlock - Affliction, Destro, and Demo are all better.

    So out of the 23 dps specs Fury is 18th! 4 of the 5 specs behind us can re-spec to something better (Arms is the 5th spec that cant). Out of 11 classes we are last.

    Not saying we need a huge buff, just that we are definitely not "middle of the pack".

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    It's to the point where I honestly don't care how well other classes perform in anyone elses raids except my own. I don't raid 25m, so I don't care how well classes perform in 25, I care how they do in 10. I don't care about normal, or in 520 gear, or 550 gear. I care about heroic, and around 540 gear. If it were to cost me a raid spot, I'd care. It doesn't. Do those other situations matter? Yes, but I'm not going to structure an argument about them for the following reason.

    There are literally TOO MANY variables to argue this point. You need to be much more specific. 10/25? Heroic? What type of progression and how far? Skill level (most fury warriors are bad which skews logs)? Gear level? Trinkets? Strategy? Other raid DPS? Any special strat that gains/costs a person DPS? How much can you cheese? How much are you cheesing? How much can other classes cheese? How much does that impact accuracy.

    So on ad nausium.

    Define paramaters. Be specific. Than we can say "In X situation Y is weak/strong." because although fury CAN be lower, I tend to see my fury warrior at 541 ilvl beating my UH DK by about 10k (And I'm much better at my warrior too so thats a small part.) I also tend to see individual DPS changing GREATLY depending on the fight.

    Nor is everything about pure DPS potential. Effective DPS (E.G not "wasted" damage like cheesing heads on Meg) and DPS when its needed (E.G tendons on heroic spine) are even better parameters.

    I'd like a slight DPS buff. I'd like more utility and survivability tweaks more though. Most of the time we don't wipe because of lack of DPS from the fury warrior.

    EDIT: I just had someone link me BL sub 2 minute kill of heroic feng as "proof" that warriors need buffs. Please. Don't be that guy....
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-07-20 at 01:17 PM.

  6. #6
    I play 25m and at ilevel 545 and with most 5.3 content on farm I would say that fury is really right smack middle or even middle lower of the pack.

    H Jin'rokh: fight length really matters for us but with most H guilds killing Jin'rokh ~2-3 mins.. We as fury is right smack middle on this fight. Losing out to Rogues, WW, Mages and Warlocks.

    Horridon: Depending on uptime on boss... We can get top 5. If we pad and other classes pad as well.. We'd lose to WW and warlocks who can break 400k easily.

    Council: mid-lower of the pack

    Mageara: top 5 if we get to BS worms. We drop further down the more ferals/warlocks are in the raid composition

    Jikun: lose to WW, Rogues and Mages

    Durumu: middle lower

    Animus: mid of pack

    Qon: mid of pack

    Twins: upper mid if we BS adds

    leishen: upper mid if we BS adds
    Last edited by senturion; 2013-07-20 at 01:42 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post

    EDIT: I just had someone link me BL sub 2 minute kill of heroic feng as "proof" that warriors need buffs. Please. Don't be that guy....
    To be fair here while it of course isn't a representative example it shows some obvious flaws in current game design with casters having that ridiculous front load capability at least that's how I perceive it.
    Anyways warrior damage is mediocre and doesn't go well above that even with additional resources via incoming damage and has among the most punishing mechanics in the game. Bladestorm helps a decent bit. Not sure if there is much more to it - I doubt anyone will open up mass recruitment for warriors any time soon.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-07-20 at 04:26 PM.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Rokugan's Avatar
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    I just love looking at worldoflogs and seeing if I beat rank 1 on this fight for fury warriors I might be 5th on dps in the raid yay!!!

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    To be fair here while it of course isn't a representative example it shows some obvious flaws in current game design with casters having that ridiculous front load capability at least that's how I perceive it.
    Anyways warrior damage is mediocre and doesn't go well above that even with additional resources via incoming damage and has among the most punishing mechanics in the game. Bladestorm helps a decent bit. Not sure if there is much more to it - I doubt anyone will open up mass recruitment for warriors any time soon.

    The reason you are wrong is that in a 2 minute fight warriors CAN NOT burst at the start and at execute. Make it a 3:30 fight and it would change quite a bit.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    The reason you are wrong is that in a 2 minute fight warriors CAN NOT burst at the start and at execute. Make it a 3:30 fight and it would change quite a bit.
    Regardless if that is true or not - I don't see how this has anything to do with what I mentioned as in seeing a flaw in the massive burst differential design wise. If you feel that this is good design so be it but I do not see some sort of wrong/right situation.

  11. #11
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    It's to the point where I honestly don't care how well other classes perform in anyone elses raids except my own. I don't raid 25m, so I don't care how well classes perform in 25, I care how they do in 10. I don't care about normal, or in 520 gear, or 550 gear. I care about heroic, and around 540 gear. If it were to cost me a raid spot, I'd care. It doesn't. Do those other situations matter? Yes, but I'm not going to structure an argument about them for the following reason.

    There are literally TOO MANY variables to argue this point. You need to be much more specific. 10/25? Heroic? What type of progression and how far? Skill level (most fury warriors are bad which skews logs)? Gear level? Trinkets? Strategy? Other raid DPS? Any special strat that gains/costs a person DPS? How much can you cheese? How much are you cheesing? How much can other classes cheese? How much does that impact accuracy.

    So on ad nausium.

    Define paramaters. Be specific. Than we can say "In X situation Y is weak/strong." because although fury CAN be lower, I tend to see my fury warrior at 541 ilvl beating my UH DK by about 10k (And I'm much better at my warrior too so thats a small part.) I also tend to see individual DPS changing GREATLY depending on the fight.

    Nor is everything about pure DPS potential. Effective DPS (E.G not "wasted" damage like cheesing heads on Meg) and DPS when its needed (E.G tendons on heroic spine) are even better parameters.

    I'd like a slight DPS buff. I'd like more utility and survivability tweaks more though. Most of the time we don't wipe because of lack of DPS from the fury warrior.

    EDIT: I just had someone link me BL sub 2 minute kill of heroic feng as "proof" that warriors need buffs. Please. Don't be that guy....
    * Must have watched our stream and now realizes my arguments *

    TLDR...Not the strongest spec atm, but having 2 warriors as fury vs 2 rogue (just example)....sure we won't do as much damage but damnit if our aoe raid cds (both demo banner and RC along with skull banner) keep us definitely viable.

  12. #12
    Over 9000! apepi's Avatar
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    You even have a lack of mods:/, only one on this forum.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  13. #13
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    You even have a lack of mods:/, only one on this forum.
    I play warrior, I just forget to post here so I can take over
    Last edited by Kerdoz; 2013-07-22 at 12:13 AM.

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