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  1. #21
    Hopefully they will buff all specs, but personally i'd like to see MM as the best single target dps.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Beoren View Post
    Hopefully they will buff all specs, but personally i'd like to see MM as the best single target dps.
    THIS^
    /10char

  3. #23
    Survival>BM? no way simply because atm BM is superior and the buffs in ptr affect all 3 spec, because that BM is superior too, MM forgot this spec for the rest of expansion, need a rework to compete with Survival/BM

    The reason is at the moment in live, the difference from BM-MM is about 10-13k that is a LOT, this difference is too big to simply correct with a few buffs to the spec.
    Last edited by keygy; 2013-07-20 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by keygy View Post
    Survival>BM? no way simply because atm BM is superior and the buffs in ptr affect all 3 spec, because that BM is superior too, MM forgot this spec for the rest of expansion, need a rework to compete with Survival/BM

    The reason is at the moment in live, the difference from BM-MM is about 10-13k that is a LOT, this difference is too big to simply correct with a few buffs to the spec.
    So if they buffed aimed shot by lets say 60% and bm by nothing, it wouldn't be corrected?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by lopk View Post
    And sims aren't accurate because they don't take into account any humanisms (i.e. human error) that actual testing will provide.

    Don't get me wrong, I will prefer sims to actually testing almost all of the time (or - shocker - use BOTH of them), but as soon as you say that human testing means absolutely nothing, you lose any bit of credibility.
    Not trying to be inflammatory, but your information is incorrect. Human testing is meaningless because of RNG. No person has enough time to do the amount of in game testing necessary to rule out RNG as the sole reason for difference in DPS between two different setups. It requires the many thousands of trials only possible with a simulation. Now that doesn't mean in game testing has no purpose. Just that it shouldn't be used to compare DPS.

    Also, simulations do take into account "humanisms" as you put it. In simcraft, on the globals tab inside the options tab you will find a setting called player skill. This is changeable to account for human errors such as wasted GCDs or using a foucs dump when your main ability is off cooldown. Simulations also account for human reaction times. For example in the SV script, you will find the line "actions+=/explosive_shot,if=buff.lock_and_load.react". This is telling the sim that it needs to wait (I believe the default is 0.5 sec) before preforming the action because it takes time for a human to notice the buff, process the meaning, and react accordingly.

    Alternatively, you may be mixing up simulations (SimulationCraft) with calculations (femaledwarf) which do not take human error into account.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jfk View Post
    So if they buffed aimed shot by lets say 60% and bm by nothing, it wouldn't be corrected?
    Don't bother. He has tiny brains.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by D R E A D E D View Post
    Who are you? use the sim. Human tests, no matter HOW MANY TESTS or HOW MUCH DAMAGE you do per test, are never accurate. They mean absolutely nothing
    It's the other way around, sims mean nothing, they haven't meant anything since wrath and they continue to go down that path.

    Every patchwerk boss you do as a human will be different everytime, your mood, your rng luck, your timing and your focus will be a variable that always will change the outcome of your performance and there still hasn't been a sim that even remotely can simulate that, nor can they even simulate hunters properly without that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keygy View Post
    Survival>BM? no way simply because atm BM is superior and the buffs in ptr affect all 3 spec, because that BM is superior too, MM forgot this spec for the rest of expansion, need a rework to compete with Survival/BM

    The reason is at the moment in live, the difference from BM-MM is about 10-13k that is a LOT, this difference is too big to simply correct with a few buffs to the spec.
    With the readiness change, bm is behind sv. If you spent a few hours a day on dummies on ptr, you would have figured it out yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jfk View Post
    So if they buffed aimed shot by lets say 60% and bm by nothing, it wouldn't be corrected?
    That still wouldn't be enough. Aimed shot damage is fine, it doesn't need to a gazillion amount of damage. What needs to be buffed in MM :

    Chimera shot and steady shot, and even the bleeds need to do more (make it like warriors, scale it with haste).

    Buff chimera and steady shot by 25% and make the bleeds scale with haste would do a lot, without making them too powerful in pvp.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    That still wouldn't be enough. Aimed shot damage is fine, it doesn't need to a gazillion amount of damage. What needs to be buffed in MM :

    Chimera shot and steady shot, and even the bleeds need to do more (make it like warriors, scale it with haste).

    Buff chimera and steady shot by 25% and make the bleeds scale with haste would do a lot, without making them too powerful in pvp.
    Buffs are needed. But your percentages are too high. Let's stay realistic.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    With the readiness change, bm is behind sv. If you spent a few hours a day on dummies on ptr, you would have figured it out yourself.
    That is not true at all. BM is still better. It is also too early to tell which will be the best when 5.4 comes out.

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    That is not true at all. BM is still better. It is also too early to tell which will be the best when 5.4 comes out.
    I honestly don't care much at this point in time, but I've heard many people stating BM is behind. I mean come on, SV and BM are so close on live atm.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    It's the other way around, sims mean nothing, they haven't meant anything since wrath and they continue to go down that path.

    Every patchwerk boss you do as a human will be different everytime, your mood, your rng luck, your timing and your focus will be a variable that always will change the outcome of your performance and there still hasn't been a sim that even remotely can simulate that, nor can they even simulate hunters properly without that.
    Weird statement. You say sims are useless, and seem to imply that in-game testing is much more important/useful.

    Then you go on to explain how dps in-game will be different all the time depending on rng, timings, etc, which is completely true. This leads to the indirect conclusion that in-game testing is also useless.

    The very simple truth is this: In-game testing varies on a large number of factors, which means you can never reliably compare different specs, gear, reforges, etc, even if you spend hours every day on a training dummy (which is also quite faulty because you don't have raid buffs, which change things). Simulations or calculations (simcraft and femaledwarf) are certainly far from perfect, but it's the best tool we have.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesftw View Post
    the "main" spec is gonna be whichever i have most fun playing , all 3 of them being bland, boring and almost exactly the same dosnt help tho...
    Reroll to a different class, you obviously dont like hunters.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  13. #33
    The Patient Varum93's Avatar
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    have to wait for the readiness changes before anything is final tbh.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Reroll to a different class, you obviously dont like hunters.
    ^This. No matter what alt I try and level, I always come crawling back to my beautiful, unique, lovable little pet tamer!

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hareu View Post
    survival isn't always better for aoe, bm can do a lot of aoe, survival aoe is only better than bm if targets are quite all stacked up and if they won't die right away, bm aoe is a lot better if everything is stacked, beast cleave does a shit ton.
    Beast Cleave is fine for 2-5 sec burst AoE(such as Lei Shen balls) while SV gains more when the targets stay alive due to SrS ticks.

    Overall, SV is better, just because of Serpent Sting applied to the targets deals so much more damage than Beast Cleave and is way easier to use and isn't prone to RNG Pet AI(BM is useless on Heroic Magaera).

    OT: I believe Blizzard wants to keep it as it is now, BM for single target/cleave, SV for everything else, MM for lols

  16. #36
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    too soon

    10char
    Chaos! Madness! Like a hug for your brain!¯\(°_o)/¯
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
    14/14h and finally done

  17. #37
    Still belive BM will come out on top asfar as single target.

    For aoe i would love 1-2 seconds longer duration on Beast Cleave.

  18. #38
    Money is on Beast Mastery given the encounter structure, revert of Stampede nerf, and further signature buffs incoming. The fights are largely spread adds which hurts Survival or single target burns which favors Beast.

    I don't have faith in them balancing Marks.

  19. #39
    im going SV, because i been SV the entire expac so far cause i dont enjoy being BM.
    i like MM also, but i left it alone mostly cause it just couldnt reach the dps i wanted for raiding.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    It's the other way around, sims mean nothing, they haven't meant anything since wrath and they continue to go down that path.

    Every patchwerk boss you do as a human will be different everytime, your mood, your rng luck, your timing and your focus will be a variable that always will change the outcome of your performance and there still hasn't been a sim that even remotely can simulate that, nor can they even simulate hunters properly without that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    With the readiness change, bm is behind sv. If you spent a few hours a day on dummies on ptr, you would have figured it out yourself.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That still wouldn't be enough. Aimed shot damage is fine, it doesn't need to a gazillion amount of damage. What needs to be buffed in MM :

    Chimera shot and steady shot, and even the bleeds need to do more (make it like warriors, scale it with haste).

    Buff chimera and steady shot by 25% and make the bleeds scale with haste would do a lot, without making them too powerful in pvp.
    How is that any different from just buffing aimed shot? your theory is irrelevant

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