1. #1

    Demo Stat Weight Question (Decision Time)

    Armory. I just got a head piece yesterday, so the one that's currently equip doesn't have the legendary meta (it will as later tonight, though). I'm also going to pick up Falling Blossom Threads so I can ditch my current boots.

    With those 2 new piece of gear, I finally reached a point where haste is simming significantly ahead of mastery. SimCraft has my haste at 3.68, int at 5.58, and mastery at 3.02. My question is, is this the route I want to go at ilvl 530? I've been balancing both values for some time now, so I'm a bit unease stacking haste (I've read for some people it works, for others it doesn't).
    Last edited by WildcatTM; 2013-07-19 at 06:38 PM.

  2. #2
    At 430 your gear and stats will change so rapidly that it's probably not worth optimizing. Not that you need it for heroics/LFR anyway. You are probably better off spending time grinding out gear pieces instead of trying to optimize something that may completely change by the next day. Stat weights are contingent on your current values, so any new piece might throw things in disarray.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord Arian21's Avatar
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    get to 500+ then start optimizing . In general demonology stats are best left balanced .

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    At 430 your gear and stats will change so rapidly that it's probably not worth optimizing. Not that you need it for heroics/LFR anyway. You are probably better off spending time grinding out gear pieces instead of trying to optimize something that may completely change by the next day. Stat weights are contingent on your current values, so any new piece might throw things in disarray.
    FML. I meant 530! Just edited my post. Check the armory next time! ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arian21 View Post
    get to 500+ then start optimizing . In general demonology stats are best left balanced .
    FML. I meant 530! Just edited my post. Check the armory next time! :-O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arian21 View Post
    get to 500+ then start optimizing . In general demonology stats are best left balanced .
    With regards to what you said, I'm currently waiting for a balanced simulation to finish up with 9534 haste and 9459 mastery. Going with my current stat weights, I have over 11K in haste and 6K in mastery. These numbers give me a 177K on a standstill fight.

  5. #5
    There is an ongoing debate as to whether Haste or Mastery are the go-to "dump stat". Haste breakpoints (the one you can reach most comfortably with the given gear) are a given, of course. Simcraft tends to have a haste-bias for several reasons, and is in any case just a theoretical scenario. In practice, given the specific nature of ToT encounters, actual weights may vary, but are hard to model accurately.

    In general, there is likely a very small difference between Haste and Mastery. Several high-profile warlocks (like Sparkuggz) advocate Mastery, but others fare well with Haste, too. The likely conclusion is that it's mostly personal preference, with certain specific fights being a bit more biased one way or another (Lei Shen for example works better with Mastery).

    Your off-spec is also something to consider. If you are running Demo/Destro (a popular combo for ToT), then you are better off stacking Mastery, as it will benefit Destro more on the fights where you go that spec (likely Primordius and Ra-Den, possibly others). 8097 Haste -> Mastery is a common popular reforge towards that end.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    8097 Haste -> Mastery is a common popular reforge towards that end.
    Essentially, this. I'm no expert on Demo personally, having only just picked it up somewhat recently, but from all the research I've done into it, it seems that most high end warlocks advocate going for haste thresholds for the extra Doom tick, (with glyph of EA), and then dumping the rest into mastery. The mechanics of most of the ToT fights just work well with those stats. Especially since having the extra Doom tick is an extra Fel Imp spawned, and then having more mastery is extra fel imp damage. Having 500 extra haste over the threshold doesn't boost the damage of the fel imp that's spawned any more than being 10 haste over the threshold. And with all of the multitarget fights in ToT, you should have a ton of Fel Imps on most fights, and they're the largest source of your damage, so going for mastery to boost their damage even more is just ideal, so long as you're still above the threshold to spawn extras.

  7. #7
    Finally finished my sims:

    Full Haste Profile
    Intellect: 19372
    Haste: 11478
    Mastery: 7152
    DPS: 177373

    Haste Breakpoint, All Mastery Profile
    Intellect: 20132
    Haste: 8094
    Mastery: 10899
    DPS: 176846

    Relatively Even Haste and Mastery Profile
    Intellect: 19052
    Haste: 9534
    Mastery: 9459
    DPS: 176805

    They're all fairly close. I think I might go full haste next week to see how it goes for me. Anything to increase my RPPM procs, especially UVLS. Any other input and personal experience?

  8. #8
    Going haste with RPPM in mind is not really fruitful. Statistically, the variance is so high that you'd need to do THOUSANDS of attempts to see a real difference in proc rates. Nobody will actually do that in real life raiding, but Simcraft does - that's why it values haste higher.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Going haste with RPPM in mind is not really fruitful. Statistically, the variance is so high that you'd need to do THOUSANDS of attempts to see a real difference in proc rates. Nobody will actually do that in real life raiding, but Simcraft does - that's why it values haste higher.
    So I'll probably dump the haste profile, then. That's either the clear yes for me or a clear no. The 2 profiles I'm deciding between are the even distribution and the haste break point. I see more people argue over those then the full haste profile. The difference between the two are almost minimal at best.

    I wonder if I'll notice losing out on 11700 DPS from the imps if I go for a balanced distribution.

  10. #10
    i would take all sims when it comes to demo with a grain of salt, any spec really. go with whatever setup you want, the differences is barely noticable. personally i would go with 8100 haste and rest into mastery, it seems to work best for me.

  11. #11
    I really dislike your trinket :P

    Are you at a point where you could get the shadowpan one? Should be a pretty big deal.

    As to haste vs mastery, in the range you are sitting (>8.1k and <14.8k) the only points where I would expect haste value to spike is before the HoG tick threshold at ~9.3k haste (Endless afflictions). For the fights you have remaining, full on haste would be of potential benefit for both Council, and Animus - especially if you can break 14.8k by them . Everything else, lower haste with more mastery should be better overall, as they all include some aoe heavy point, which beats out 0.5% dps you might gain on singletarget.

  12. #12
    The single target difference between 14K+ haste and 8100 haste > mastery is within the noise of RNG fight to fight variance. 10K sims are nice but you'll kill a boss maybe a dozen or two dozen times period. The difference in aoe between high haste and high mastery is very different...at least in terms of aoe burst which is sort of the name of the game in ToT heroics.

    Thus the general consensus that a bit of theoretical top end isn't worth gutting your aoe burst. Thus the 8100 haste with the rest to mastery being so popular. Two small things to counterpoint though. First haste or mastery is a playstyle so you will do better at the one you play better...just understand how each stat impacts the fights. Second, you can go up to 9778 (call it 10K'ish) haste if you offspec affliction.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    I really dislike your trinket :P

    Are you at a point where you could get the shadowpan one? Should be a pretty big deal.
    At the pace we clear content, it's pretty much a waste of valor. Sooner or later a trinket will drop for me. But if all my other gear is upgraded, then I'll probably go for it.

    As to haste vs mastery, in the range you are sitting (>8.1k and <14.8k) the only points where I would expect haste value to spike is before the HoG tick threshold at ~9.3k haste (Endless afflictions). For the fights you have remaining, full on haste would be of potential benefit for both Council, and Animus - especially if you can break 14.8k by them . Everything else, lower haste with more mastery should be better overall, as they all include some aoe heavy point, which beats out 0.5% dps you might gain on singletarget.
    Good points. Thank you, mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    The single target difference between 14K+ haste and 8100 haste > mastery is within the noise of RNG fight to fight variance. 10K sims are nice but you'll kill a boss maybe a dozen or two dozen times period. The difference in aoe between high haste and high mastery is very different...at least in terms of aoe burst which is sort of the name of the game in ToT heroics.

    Thus the general consensus that a bit of theoretical top end isn't worth gutting your aoe burst. Thus the 8100 haste with the rest to mastery being so popular. Two small things to counterpoint though. First haste or mastery is a playstyle so you will do better at the one you play better...just understand how each stat impacts the fights. Second, you can go up to 9778 (call it 10K'ish) haste if you offspec affliction.
    I was thinking about hitting the 10K mark since I do off-spec as affliction. I only had the opportunity to use it once or twice, though.

  14. #14
    I didn't see any real change in demo's damage between 8100 > mastery and the aff haste breakpoint but I noticed aff went up quite a bit (or I was lucky w' meta and trinket procs who knows). It didn't fascinate me to the point I delved the logs over it just an observation. I just am able to make the swing by reforging my chanye/TF wrists/jinrok legs so its not much of a headache to swap for me. I MS demo with aff OS though I only really use aff on jinrok (if I care about dmg), primordius, and tortos since people are getting really lazy now about turtle dmg lol. (No its not max dmg but that isn't what makes the fight easier...though I usually offer to sit for people who need something) I use demo sac on council, ji kun, and ra den (just for the orb dmg).

    TLDR the gap between 8100 haste > mastery and 10K'ish haste for demo is negligible while aff seems to gain quite a bit. If its easily doable in your itemization go for it its certainly a versatile setup for aff/demo.

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