[Guardian][PTR] Dream of Cenarius scaling question

[Snubiz]

So, has anyone tried using Dream of Cenarius for guardian spec on PTR? I would love to know how it scales. According to the tooltip on this website, it scales with Attack Power instead of spell power...?

Wouldn't this lead to some really high healing with decent stack of vengeance?

[Arielle]

Take the tooltip and substitute "AP/2" for "SP".

Wouldn't this lead to some really high healing with decent stack of vengeance?

Yes, that's the point. Otherwise it's pretty worthless.

[exochaft]

The actual amount you'll be healed does vary a bit due to the inherent variance of Healing Touch, but for a snapshot at between 50-55k AP total, I was seeing between 86-99k Healing Touch hits and between 147-166k Healing Touch crits over a fairly small sample size (hence why I call it a snapshot). Keep in mind, with my gear on the PTR, that's 7-10K Vengeance.

With our HP right now on the PTR, a 25man raiding environment could have you around 500k AP Vengeance upper cap, leading to almost 300k non-crit HT heals. Not saying you will reach that cap feasibly, but the potential HT heal is strong. Also, with our crit levels, there's likely over a 40% chance for that HT to crit. With any decent amount of raid Vengeance, the amount HT will heal is on par with Renewal I've found. The obvious downside is the randomness of the proc tied to Mangle crits and HT being on the GCD.

[Viromand]

The obvious downside is the randomness of the proc tied to Mangle crits and HT being on the GCD.

How long does the buff actually hold. If it is like the current DoC buff the randomness will not be that hard on us

[exochaft]

How long does the buff actually hold. If it is like the current DoC buff the randomness will not be that hard on us

It's an 8-second duration on the buff.

[Arielle]

It's an 8-second duration on the buff.

I'm 99% certain it's actually 10. Not long enough though.

[exochaft]

I'm 99% certain it's actually 10. Not long enough though.

Currently on the PTR it's 8 seconds (checked it again to be certain). I agree it's definitely not long enough, though. I'd rather the duration be long enough that we can rely on it to be up when needed... although Blizz might see this as being too powerful in light of how strong the HT can be compared to talents like Renewal. For those that care, it doesn't extend the timer if you proc it again, just refreshes to the 8 second duration.


*edit* - Figured I'd throw up a couple numbers from beating on a target dummy with no Vengeance concerning DoC for Guardian (45k AP with 64% melee crit). Over the course of 6 minutes and 52 seconds (using Incarnation and Berserk only twice and prioritizing using the HT proc versus a Mangle to prevent proc waste), I managed to do 3,877,097 healing with 34 uses of Healing Touch. That averages to roughly 114k per Healing Touch and about 9.4k HPS with no Vengeance.

*edit #2* - Might as well throw in the Ursoc's Vigor (aka, the tier 4pc) healing in case people were wondering. Did it during the DoC test, so I didn't keep up maximum uptime, only 80%. However, I did exactly 700k healing with the 4pc with 80% uptime, so I could extrapolate that 100% uptime with no Vengeance would be 875K, yielding 2.1k HPS.

[Viromand]

I guess I alredy know the answer but is HT off gcd while DoC is procced? that would be so awesome

[Arielle]

I guess I alredy know the answer but is HT off gcd while DoC is procced? that would be so awesome

Not yet, no.

[exochaft]

I did some LFR on the PTR with my guild to sort out mechanics, and I had a chance to test out DoC as Guardian on the 3rd boss (forget the name of it). Since we did several attempts on the severely over-tuned boss, there was the stacking Determination buff that skewed the numbers slightly, although we only took it up to 20%.

Be that as it may, the amount that HT is capable of healing with even 150-200k Vengeance is pretty nuts even with scaled down gear, as you're scaled down to 496. On our attempts with 10% and 15% determination, I managed to get several HT crits for over 600k on fellow raids members (the 4pc and FR were more than enough to keep me alive, so I used all the procs on other people). On average, accounting for Determination scaling, I averaged around 200-300k HT heals while actively tanking the boss and adds. I won't lie, most of the healing went to overheals because no one usually got that low, but there were several times a raid member was fairly low and my HT boom-healed them to full. Thus far, I haven't found the need to use HT on myself during PTR testing since most of our tanking toolkit is enough to keep myself alive comfortable (since FR/Renewal are off the GCD, and I don't like waiting on GCDs if I can avoid it).

Anyone else have some numbers from DoC on the PTR? I'll make an effort to use DoC on most bosses if possible.

*edit* - With respect to HT being on the GCD, I almost think it needs to be the more I play around with DoC. I know, it would be super awesome if it wasn't... but the heal can be so strong that it needs to be a decision between using the heal versus doing anything else for the sake of balance. However, I still think the proc should definitely last much longer than 8 seconds.

[colinumich]

well 300k is wonderful.(since renewal probably gives u 20-40k healing, which depend on ur stams) so how often does it trigger( in 2min duration) renewal is a life saving skill..still have to think twice..

[Arielle]

well 300k is wonderful.(since renewal probably gives u 20-40k healing, which depend on ur stams) so how often does it trigger( in 2min duration) renewal is a life saving skill..still have to think twice..

Simple math.

0.21875 (Mangles / Sec) * 120 (Seconds) * 0.76 (Crit chance in 553) * 0.45 (Chance to Proc) = 8.9775

So, a lot.

[Viromand]

since renewal probably gives u 20-40k healing, which depend on ur stams

Well renewal heals for 30% of our max hp, so I doubt hat you will raid with 120k this expansion. With 800k life renewal heals for about 260k. Cant really compare both one is a heal talent off the gcd where DoC is in an utility talenttier, which normaly gives you dps and hps. Except DoC which only gives you heal and a dmg loss

0.21875 (Mangles / Sec)

That would be a mangle every 4.7seconds. Isnt that a bit too theoretical? That would mean perfect gcd usage and perfect mangle usage. Not to mention the gcd spent on HT cannot proc mangle. Which would actually be pretty cool if it did with a high chance.

[Deleted]

That would be a mangle every 4.7seconds. Isnt that a bit too theoretical? That would mean perfect gcd usage and perfect mangle usage. Not to mention the gcd spent on HT cannot proc mangle. Which would actually be pretty cool if it did with a high chance.

Calculating with anything except optimal usage is just arbitrary. If you want, redo the calculations with your own mangles / sec.

[colinumich]

i guess there is a small problem in your calculation, the a bear's total health probably reach 1.2M-1.5M(not 120k) and 30% is 300-500k, not 800k, so that means renewal will disappear?

[exochaft]

i guess there is a small problem in your calculation, the a bear's total health probably reach 1.2M-1.5M(not 120k) and 30% is 300-500k, not 800k, so that means renewal will disappear?

Renewal still has its place, as the off-the-GCD emergency heal that you know when it will be available. That peace of mind is more than enough for Guardians to take it. If the HT proc from DoC did yield an off-the-GCD heal, Renewal still has benefit as being reliable. From the testing I've done on the PTR with DoC, I cannot stress enough that as is the talent is almost entirely about healing someone else in a raid setting due to the RNG of the proc, the length of the proc, the healing being on the GCD, and Guardians having more efficient methods of healing ourselves up.

[colinumich]

Renewal still has its place, as the off-the-GCD emergency heal that you know when it will be available. That peace of mind is more than enough for Guardians to take it. If the HT proc from DoC did yield an off-the-GCD heal, Renewal still has benefit as being reliable. From the testing I've done on the PTR with DoC, I cannot stress enough that as is the talent is almost entirely about healing someone else in a raid setting due to the RNG of the proc, the length of the proc, the healing being on the GCD, and Guardians having more efficient methods of healing ourselves up.

i got some concerns. renewal is useful when a bear's health is low and without enough aggro to use skill. so I am concerned if dream of cenarious is triggered often,does that means we will always have one when we needed? and i guess thats the key point. I agree renewal is a life saving skill, so it is still unknown unless we encounter every boss in SOO

[Deleted]

i got some concerns. renewal is useful when a bear's health is low and without enough aggro to use skill. so I am concerned if dream of cenarious is triggered often,does that means we will always have one when we needed? and i guess thats the key point. I agree renewal is a life saving skill, so it is still unknown unless we encounter every boss in SOO

DoC HT is still rather cluch since you won't really have one "when it's needed" and you'll have to use a GCD for it. Renewal is more of an emergency button when you need it, I'd rather think of DoC as a misfit talent at the moment. Especially since Ghostcrawler mentioned they want to bring guardians closer to active mitigation and away from pure dodge. As it stands Guardian DoC is a badly designed Frenzied Regeneration clone and will probably be dropped at the first sign of changes to either SD or FR. I'd stick with HotW or NV with 5.4 for any serious tanking, perhaps there will be bosses where the DoC will be useful for boss-specific mechanics like healing blobs on Immersus (sp?)

[exochaft]

I'd stick with HotW or NV with 5.4 for any serious tanking, perhaps there will be bosses where the DoC will be useful for boss-specific mechanics like healing blobs on Immersus (sp?)

Unless things change, you'll likely be using HotW on Immersus. On the PTR, Tranquility will heal up the corrupted blobs, and near the end of the encounter a HotW + caster weapon + Tranquility is really sick on a large clump of them (I usually end up in the top 3 healing done on the blobs in a 25man raid). I tried using DoC for the encounter, but the activation of the blob phase takes too long to use a DoC proc from hitting the boss, and the phase doesn't last long enough to feasibly proc DoC in most cases. The healing portion via NV was just completely worthless at any point in the fight.

I haven't had a chance to test all the encounters at least once, since the PTR testing times aren't very convenient for me. Damage loss aside, there were a couple of encounters that didn't need healing from NV or HotW, but DoC could do nicely for spot healing. Again, the damage loss probably is enough to keep us from even using DoC in that situation (since the encounters are not designed assuming a tank is going to be healing people, it's just icing on the cake), but the potential is there.

[Arielle]

I don't think I'll recommend anyone taking DoC unless it gets some mechanical attention before 5.4 goes live.