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  1. #101
    I remember rogues being fairly crap at the start of t11, but they did a balance patch fairly early on (like 1-2 months into cata) which made us solid.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I remember rogues being fairly crap at the start of t11, but they did a balance patch fairly early on (like 1-2 months into cata) which made us solid.
    Yes that was 4.0.6 that buffed up combat and sub to lvl most remember them for.

  3. #103
    Banned SinisterAU's Avatar
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    I'd personally be okay with a redesign of combat, but I hope they don't touch assassination. As long as every spec has Slice and Dice and Rupture i'm happy.

  4. #104
    Another PTR build, not a single rogue change.

  5. #105
    "As long as rupture and slice and dice" ->. Lol.

    I actually and legit want these moves in every spec generally. But you had to know, random bannedguy, that a lot of rogues do not want rupture in combat and slice and dice in a lot of places (everyone just picks their spec to be the one without slice and dice because they want that spec to be like frost DK or something).

    I like rupture in combat because it is cool and nice to habe a move that will slightly outdamage evis if it goes full duration.
    I like slice because it is powerful- but like mutilate barely has it already.

    I don't think there would be a rogue change every PTR build. They are mostly happy with rogues. I think they are still working on combat. The set bonuses are also all fucked up still. But like, we already saw some changes early on.

  6. #106
    Rupture is fine as a mechanic but it needs to tick for a lot more... at least for combat. Technically it does a lot of damage for assassination but only due to VW.

    I think SnD shouldn't just be removed because it would dumb down our specs far too much, but they could definitely nerf it back to the original amount and increase cp builder / finisher damage which would make our specs feel more reliant on our input (as opposed to having auto attack on and standing in range).

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I think SnD shouldn't just be removed because it would dumb down our specs far too much.
    My only question is, Why is SnD still a finishing move?
    - Assassination effectively got rid of using the ability on a combo point basis.
    - Using the combo points messes up the flow of the rotation for combat.
    - Relentless Blades and Ruthlessness do not benefit from it.
    - Expose armor was a non-damaging "finishing move" that consumed combo points but it's not anymore (and rightfully so).
    - All finishing moves should be damaging in general.

    Remove the cp requirement and slap a fixed 30 seconds duration on it.
    Last edited by Shinob1; 2013-07-27 at 08:40 AM.

  8. #108
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinob1 View Post
    Remove the cp requirement and slap a fixed 30 seconds duration on it.
    God forbid we get another 30/60 seconds "must press this button" thing like Tricks of the Trade and the old Hunger for Blood with no player input at all. It would be even worse design than what it is right now.

    I was planning to make a "let's tinker our Rogues come 6.0" kind of thread, so we could have a lenghty and constructive post about suggestions and ideas about how our class could be "tweaked" for 6.0. If it got enough player input and became something coherent, it could be posted on the US beta forums (they don't care about EU forums, so...) and hope it doesn't become another bucket of promises as it happened on previous Betas.

    As I see it, Combo Points and Energy aren't going anywhere, even if we somehow get it on the Rogues instead of the target. That's something that must be taken in mind; we won't see a Warlock-level revamp with unique resources for every spec.

    Because of that, each spec must become unique by how it delivers its damage; damaging finishers should have its own perks for each spec instead of being carbon copies of each other.

    PD. An idea of mine:

    Tricks of the Trade
    15 Energy 100 yd range
    Instant 30 sec cooldown

    Empowers your target's specialization, providing a benefitial boost to you and your target:
    Damage role: increases damage done by 15% for 6 seconds. Increases the Rogue's Attack Power by X% (based on the amount of damage done by the target) for 4 seconds after the initial effect fades.
    Healer role: increses healing done by 15% for 6 seconds. X% of the healing done during that time will be copied to the Rogue as a 4 second HoT.
    Tank role: transfers all threat generated by the Rogue for 6 seconds.

    Reasoning behind the conditional AP increase on the damage role effect: It promotes coordination and good play by timing Tricks with other DPS burst windows, improving your damage potential at the same time.
    Last edited by Linneth; 2013-07-27 at 09:17 AM.

  9. #109
    Having to spend combo points on SnD and Recup ruins the whole class for me. It feels like a complete chore and is the reason why my rogue tends to be my least played class. Much rather they were removed and rogues were buffed in other areas to compensate.

  10. #110
    I actually enjoy Tricks. With mutilate being top spec there is a lot of time to plan and execute tricks weaving. I.E swapping its target throughout the fight to who will gain the most benefit. I previously wasn't super good at this due to combat being super sexy in cata and being unable to think fast enough.

    The general idea of your fix to tricks would promote this kind of game play more which is only a good thing. Me likely! it adds depth to game play, forces players to think and makes rogues important, which we sometimes lack.

    These are the smart idea that blizz should be hearing about. Not Ksp is bad moan moan make a glyph for it.
    Last edited by Lumbermill; 2013-07-27 at 11:33 AM.

  11. #111
    Linneth: Your tricks change removes choice from it. During progression you will tricks a healer. Period.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Linneth: Your tricks change removes choice from it. During progression you will tricks a healer. Period.
    Unlikely. Not all fights are healing intensive. Or indeed all sections of the fight.

    At random take Durumu, yes you would tricks the healer during light spectrum phase. In a non phase it is not healing intense therefore you wouldn't tricks a healer, you would tricks your highest single target dps. but would need to plan to have it off cd to trick the healer during light spectrum (the difference between a good and average player). Then during maze phase you can weave tricks on a dps to the kill the walls then have it back up to aid healing during the maze.

    It wouldn't be as simple as derp tricks healer 100% of the time. Just as tricks right now isn't just derp tricks the same target for the whole fight. Sure you can do that but you aren't maximising the tool you have been given.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Linneth: Your tricks change removes choice from it. During progression you will tricks a healer. Period.
    The best way to increase the healing output is *always* to reduce the time a fight lasts. You trix a dps, unless the damage taken is greater than what the healers can heal, in which case a hotfix is on the way.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I think SnD shouldn't just be removed because it would dumb down our specs far too much,
    Why do you think they wouldn't put something in its place? The idea of removing snd isn't to dumb down but to have 3 specs doing something different. Just removing snd wouldn't fix anything.

  15. #115
    Is everyone here whining talking about PvE?
    Cus you know... Wether you like it or not.. Rogue's will always be a more PvP oriented class. And in PvP, a rotation can never become boring if you have lots of tools like a rogue has.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-07-28 at 06:57 AM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephalo View Post
    Is everyone here whining talking about PvE?
    Cus you know... Wether you like it or not.. Rogue's will always be a more PvP oriented class. And in PvP, a rotation can never become boring if you have lots of tools like a rogue has.
    Maybe in Vanilla it would have been that way, but even that argument is baseless because PvP didn't exist for most of Vanilla. Since BC, Blizzard has balanced classes for PvE and PvP, they balance for both.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephalo View Post
    Is everyone here whining talking about PvE?
    Cus you know... Wether you like it or not.. Rogue's will always be a more PvP oriented class. And in PvP, a rotation can never become boring if you have lots of tools like a rogue has.
    Could you post this in the "Assassination from the Mists" thread over at the elitist jerks rogue forums? I think Aldrianna would really loce to read your insight about how rogue is more of a pvp class.



    But ignoring the fact that rogues are intended for both- and ignoring the fact that in general, we only have one pvp spec at a time, and some seasons our whole class is absent from rated play in ways no other CLASS is (even the weak cata warriors were 5x as populated as MoP s1 rogue)- our specs are clearly aimed at certain strengths and weaknesses in pve, and I would like to see that strengthened, not removed (blade flurry nerf was removal).

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    The best way to increase the healing output is *always* to reduce the time a fight lasts. You trix a dps, unless the damage taken is greater than what the healers can heal, in which case a hotfix is on the way.
    Increasing the output of 1 dps will relieve the healing strain FAR FAR less than increasing the output of 1 healer. If you buff 1 dps by 2%, you're increasing the raid dps by maybe 0.5%, tops in a 10 man--you've relieved healing strain by about 0.5%. If you increase 1 healer's output by 2%, you've just increased total healing throughput by up to 0.8% or so, relieving healing strain by 0.8%.

    The only time increasing 1 dps's throughput matters more than 1 healer's throughput is if you're hitting enrage at 1% or less--if you're missing enrage because people are dying, then increasing healing throughput is going to matter more (unless dps are dying to avoidable damage).

    I dunno about you but most of our first kills are with not quite a full raid of living players.

    Of course, that's not to say you can't just tricks dps during burn phases and tricks healers during heavy-healing phases.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-07-27 at 09:02 PM.

  19. #119
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Increasing the output of 1 dps will relieve the healing strain FAR FAR less than increasing the output of 1 healer. If you buff 1 dps by 2%, you're increasing the raid dps by maybe 0.5%, tops in a 10 man--you've relieved healing strain by about 0.5%. If you increase 1 healer's output by 2%, you've just increased total healing throughput by up to 0.8% or so, relieving healing strain by 0.8%.

    The only time increasing 1 dps's throughput matters more than 1 healer's throughput is if you're hitting enrage at 1% or less--if you're missing enrage because people are dying, then increasing healing throughput is going to matter more (unless dps are dying to avoidable damage).

    I dunno about you but most of our first kills are with not quite a full raid of living players.

    Of course, that's not to say you can't just tricks dps during burn phases and tricks healers during heavy-healing phases.
    Your last phrase is what it would come down to. Most of the time player deaths come from unpredictable damage spikes or because you've screwed some mechanic. Tricksing a healer would make sense during Kazra'jin's Discharge, Megaera's Rampage, Ji'kun's Quills, Qon's Fist Smash, H Lei Shen during P3, etcetera, but not just in case someone could die from something your healer's healing output won't make a difference. Those are predictable raid damage, where improving a Tranquility or Revival could mean the difference between life or death. On the other hand, you could tricks your WW Monk so he destroys H Megaera Arcane adds or because you need to burst Jalak as fast as possible.

    It would also address the threat redirection on top of a damage increase, which feels wrong because both things at the same time doesn't make much sense. I added a healer effect so all roles could benefit from the ability, while at the same time renewing a dated WotLK skill to MoP level.

  20. #120
    Rogues / hunters need a massive overhaul to distinguish their specs, I hope GC keeps his word on this.

    They might wait till expansion time to do this, which is understandable, I just hope it happens.

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