Batman Redux (and) vs Superman

[cubby]

Why are they doing this so close to the heels of arguably the best superhero trilogy ever made? How could they even think that there could be a better batman than what Nolan and Bale put together? And I'm not knocking Ben, either - just the wtf portion of the entire endeavor.

Granted, Man of Steel was a great redo of Superman - and I would love to see more of that.

Finally, how the hell would Batman ever beat Superman - and if he could, why would he?

[Aeriel]

Finally, how the hell would Batman ever beat Superman - and if he could, why would he?

Watch Justice League: Doom. This is pretty clearly spelled out.

There were several other series in which Batman and Superman fought. The only one that Batman lost was when he chose to lose, and left Superman looking like he had fought Doomsday. (Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns series)

There is a reason that even Apocalypse was scared of Batman. He would do ANYTHING to win. In fact, he's the one that actually kills Apocalypse in Final Crisis, so I guess that fear was founded.

[cubby]

Watch Justice League: Doom. This is pretty clearly spelled out.

There were several other series in which Batman and Superman fought. The only one that Batman lost was when he chose to lose, and left Superman looking like he had fought Doomsday. (Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns series)

There is a reason that even Apocalypse was scared of Batman. He would do ANYTHING to win. In fact, he's the one that actually kills Apocalypse in Final Crisis, so I guess that fear was founded.

So this redone redux is going to follow the Justice League story line (loosely)? That could be interesting.

How does Superman lose to Batman - I don't understand that at all.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

They're doing it wrong. Batman would at most get in a brawl with Superman once and it would turn into an alliance. What they should of done is:



Produce Man of Steel.

Develop Batman Reboot with Ben Affleck

Develop Wonder Woman Movie

Produce Batman Movie(As in release it. Have John Jones cameo in this to connect to Justice League)

Develop Flash movie

Develop Justice League Movie(Introduce Hawkgirl kinda like Black Widow was in Avengers)

Produce Flash Movie

Develop Green Lantern(Whatever one, John Stewert or Hal Jordan)

Produce Justice League Movie.

Develop Man of Steel II

Profit!


Man of Steel is already messed up due to....*cough*


I dunno how they'll manage it but I think they in the midst of making an epic saga, they..kinda forgot what makes them good.

So this redone redux is going to follow the Justice League story line (loosely)? That could be interesting.

How does Superman lose to Batman - I don't understand that at all.

I suspect Kryptonite will play a part, or the Red Sun tactic. I'd wager it won't go exactly as I suspect but you never know.

[Kraenen]

ugh god there's too many reboots. let's have another spider-man reboot while we're at it!

[Aeriel]

So this redone redux is going to follow the Just League story line (loosely)?

How does Superman lose to Batman - I don't understand that at all.

I did not say that. In fact, JL: Doom would have nothing to do with this movie since it involved other characters. It is also loosely based on the comic storyline JLA: Tower of Babel, depending on your preferred medium.

I was avoiding spoilers. If you are really interested in the answer to your question, I gave you places that have that answer. Regardless, just remember that Batman is a master of learning and manipulating his foe's weakness(es), and Superman has more than he thinks.

[derpkitteh]

i swear, having batman on any level near someone like superman is just pure fan pandering bullshit.

[cubby]

I did not say that. In fact, JL: Doom would have nothing to do with this movie since it involved other characters. It is also loosely based on the comic storyline JLA: Tower of Babel, depending on your preferred medium.

My bad - wasn't trying to misrepresent what you said. I just don't know much of anything about the JL series in the comic books.

I was avoiding spoilers. If you are really interested in the answer to your question, I gave you places that have that answer. Regardless, just remember that Batman is a master of learning and manipulating his foe's weakness(es), and Superman has more than he thinks.

Well now you've gotten me interested. Could you post some of the fights and ways Batman did it. If the Nolan/Bale series captured Batman's essence of learning foes weaknesses at all, then it could be interesting to see what they do in a movie.

I think I loved the Nolan Batman trilogy so much that I can't imagine anyone else doing it. Of course, I loved Jack Nicholson as Batman, then almost barfed when I heard Ledger was cast, and now of course can't imagine any one better than him. Lol.

[Kaitenx]

I doubt it will be actually Batman vs Superman in a fight etc. It will be more of a metaphor for their different ideals or the way they handle lex perhaps? If they continue on the path of the realistic superman that they set up in Man of Steel (which im very thankful for) There is no way batman can fight superman on any physical level in a world were kryptonite has yet to be established as a thing.

[Aeriel]

i swear, having batman on any level near someone like superman is just pure fan pandering bullshit.

Not really. Frank Miller's fight between them is pretty well executed. One thing to remember: Batman cheats.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I doubt it will be actually Batman vs Superman in a fight etc. It will be more of a metaphor for their different ideals or the way they handle lex perhaps? If they continue on the path of the realistic superman that they set up in Man of Steel (which im very thankful for) There is no way batman can fight superman on any physical level in a world were kryptonite has yet to be established as a thing.

...A realistic Superman *Facedesk* The very origin of Superman isn't even *realistic* in the sense. It's an entertaining movie to be sure but I think they hold back Superman's potential(Along with Bats) by grounding it in realism.


Guess the Nolan effect is in the works.



Disclaimer: I don't hate Nolan, he gave respect to the Batman Franchise since Batman and Robin(It's..........not good). He limited the vision of Batman. Granted he definitely shook the world with the Joker(Which there isn't a lot of people who can do what Heath did).


These movies are good, I just feel they could be better. I'm not a ranty type of person.

Not really. Frank Miller's fight between them is pretty well executed. One thing to remember: Batman cheats.

He's Batman he'll do whatever it takes barring killing someone.

[endersblade]

Watch Justice League: Doom. This is pretty clearly spelled out.

There were several other series in which Batman and Superman fought. The only one that Batman lost was when he chose to lose, and left Superman looking like he had fought Doomsday. (Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns series)

There is a reason that even Apocalypse was scared of Batman. He would do ANYTHING to win. In fact, he's the one that actually kills Apocalypse in Final Crisis, so I guess that fear was founded.

While that is true, I don't think Batman would break out the Krytonite ring simply to win a fight against Superman. He has too much honor for that. Yes, in that movie where everyone goes apeshit, he has to use it. But if it was just "Hey dude, let's have a fight!", I highly doubt Batman would use it. Granted, he has no chance in hell of winning without it :-)

[derpkitteh]

Not really. Frank Miller's fight between them is pretty well executed. One thing to remember: Batman cheats.

no man or army on this planet would even be able to conceive their cheating plot before superman could steamroll the whole world. it's nonsense to think one above average guy could stand for even a millisecond. it's just for some reason everyone seems to have this massive hardon for batman and the writers shit out crap like this because of it.

[Aeriel]

Well now you've gotten me interested. Could you post some of the fights and ways Batman did it. If the Nolan/Bale series captured Batman's essence of learning foes weaknesses at all, then it could be interesting to see what they do in a movie.

I think I loved the Nolan Batman trilogy so much that I can't imagine anyone else doing it. Of course, I loved Jack Nicholson as Batman, then almost barfed when I heard Ledger was cast, and now of course can't imagine any one better than him. Lol.

What's the fun in giving the spoilers? I was not as fond of The Dark Knight Rises, because of the way the Bane fights progressed. Granted, I can understand not including Azrael or the mysticism/psychic powers stuff. However, one major plot point that arises with Bane is Batman's robotic supersuit meant to fight super-strength meta-humans.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

no man or army on this planet would even be able to conceive their cheating plot before superman could steamroll the whole world. it's nonsense to think one above average guy could stand for even a millisecond. it's just for some reason everyone seems to have this massive hardon for batman and the writers shit out crap like this because of it.

If one goes by the Batman mythos, Batman would be able to beat Superman. Batman is the most intelligent human being on Earth. He's at the top physical peak and even mental peak as well. With enough planning and time, Batman can beat Superman if he tried. I see it like Batman is Superman's failsafe. If someone should take control of Superman or go rogue, Batman would be the only one that could possibly stop him. It's too dangerous to NOT have a failsafe.

Now the other way around? Batman would be able to bring a lot of folks to their knees however Superman could take Batman down(Like I said Batman's failsafe is Superman himself if Batman went rogue or what not). Heck the whole Justice League could disable Batman. With that said, Superman isn't stupid, he's fairly intelligent but not the genius that Batman is.

To me they're in some ways equals due to their skills and honestly to me I'm not going to say *Superman is better hur hur* or *Batman would pwn him*. No point in getting into a hero debate.

What's the fun in giving the spoilers? I was not as fond of The Dark Knight Rises, because of the way the Bane fights progressed. Granted, I can understand not including Azrael or the mysticism/psychic powers stuff. However, one major plot point that arises with Bane is Batman's robotic supersuit meant to fight super-strength meta-humans.

Nolan's vision of Batman is grounded and realistic to where even Batman himself isn't the same as the one in the mythos that we love and are used to.

[cubby]

What's the fun in giving the spoilers? I was not as fond of The Dark Knight Rises, because of the way the Bane fights progressed. Granted, I can understand not including Azrael or the mysticism/psychic powers stuff. However, one major plot point that arises with Bane is Batman's robotic supersuit meant to fight super-strength meta-humans.

Yeah, they did the best they could with Bane. After Ledger died they had to redo the whole third movie.

I'll take a look at some of those JL movies.

[Hishiro]

Finally, how the hell would Batman ever beat Superman - and if he could, why would he?

Keep in mind, Batman vs. Superman is not the actual title of the movie, we know it's the sequel to Man of Steel, it will have Batman in it, and it is inspired by the graphic novel "The Dark Knight Returns". The filmmakers have only said that it is inspired by that comic, not actually based on or a retelling of that story. The reason everyone says Batman vs. Superman is because in that comic, Batman ends up beating the shit out of Superman. In the end, Superman does come out on top, and Batman fakes his death. If you don't want to read the comic, there is an animated movie of it you can check out - it's a pretty great story and well worth it.

The point is though, we don't know the plot or what Superman and Batman's relationship will be like in this movie. Will they be adversaries or partners?

What I think this movie will be is this: Bruce Wayne and Lex Luthor are business competitors. Of course, we know Bruce Wayne is Batman and Lex is a dick. Anyways, the government is trying to find a "solution" to Superman given the widespread destruction in the first film (this is also a common theme in Superman comics and Justice League comics as well, the goverment wants their own heroes/team of superheroes in their pocket following their orders), and they have turned to Wayne Enterprises and LexCorp to help them with this. This is how Batman ends up involved with Superman. Lex on the other hand, will be responsible for creating this films other bad guy... Metallo, and then Batman and Superman end up working together to stop him.

[Aeriel]

no man or army on this planet would even be able to conceive their cheating plot before superman could steamroll the whole world. it's nonsense to think one above average guy could stand for even a millisecond. it's just for some reason everyone seems to have this massive hardon for batman and the writers shit out crap like this because of it.

And that is exactly why Frank Miller wrote that plot. By the end of the Silver Age, Superman had essentially become a Deus ex Machina. It was by far the biggest critique of his comics. Every new writer had given him more and more power to the point that he could not lose. It is the same reason for Death of Superman (ok admittedly that gave him yet another power in the end and furthered the Deus ex Machina). The point with Batman, the only "psuedo-" member of the Justice league without super powers, is to make Superman more human. Plus, Clark is not going to kill Bruce, but Bruce has no problems making him wish he had...repeatedly. Clark is the boy scout that always plays by the rules. Bruce is the antihero that adheres to his own code, which usually only tangentially aligns with others. That is Superman's greatest weakness: he believes in the good in everyone. Even Darkseid...

[Zoma]

How does Superman lose to Batman - I don't understand that at all.

In Dark Knight Returns, iirc, it basically involved a) Superman getting hit with a nuke that blocked out the sun, basically injuring him and preventing him from healing. This happened before the fight. b) Batman using a Mecha-suit and c) Green Arrow shooting an arrow at Superman that releases Kryptonite dust that Superman inhales.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And that is exactly why Frank Miller wrote that plot. By the end of the Silver Age, Superman had essentially become a Deus ex Machina. It was by far the biggest critique of his comics. Every new writer had given him more and more power to the point that he could not lose. It is the same reason for Death of Superman (ok admittedly that gave him yet another power in the end and furthered the Deus ex Machina). The point with Batman, the only "psuedo-" member of the Justice league without super powers, is to make Superman more human. Plus, Clark is not going to kill Bruce, but Bruce has no problems making him wish he had...repeatedly. Clark is the boy scout that always plays by the rules. Bruce is the antihero that adheres to his own code, which usually only tangentially aligns with others. That is Superman's greatest weakness: he believes in the good in everyone. Even Darkseid...

In someways that's what makes him so great. Barring the Darkseid part. I still want to see Darkseid on the big screen. Smallville almost had it but not close enough.