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  1. #21
    I mean, there's this argument that while everyone who raids heroic raids is definitely a good player, not everyone who DOESN'T raid heroic raids, or to be even more radical, not everyone who normally raids LFR is a terrible player. To give you a fair example, I never raided a day in my life before LFR, I barely even did dungeons, so by the definition of LFR according to the forum I should technically suck at raiding and be utterly incompetent in normal environments… But I stepped into a guild with a new core team starting normal mode Throne of Thunder aaaand turned out to be one of the best players in that group, so much so that they let me replace one of their tanks that had been in the guild prior to it changing servers in the first place because I was better at my monk than he was at his.

    While this kind of looks a lot like a "reasons why LFR ruined WoW" thread, it might be useful to note that having something as outlandish as 60-man raids would probably ruin WoW just as quickly as people claim LFR is. I mean… People have trouble scraping together a 25-man team now. If I throw you a bone here and say "okay Deathwing should have been a 40-man encounter", considering 40-man did exist back in the day, who the hell would ever have beaten Deathwing? What group would find 40 people who were coordinated enough to pull off the mechanics of nowadays, especially considering CRZ wasn't even implemented let alone active in a current content raid?

    Oh, wait, that'd be probably nobody, and if nobody ever did it, then why would Blizzard spend money designing it? It'd be a colossal waste of their time and resources if they kept things at the level they were at in original WoW and TBC, when interest in the game was much higher and the people who loved the game had more time on their hands for it. They accomplish more by designing content everyone can see and keeping heroic as the hardest difficulty with the greatest rewards than they would making that content for 1 to 10% of their modern playerbase to see.

    The truth is, there could be 40-man raids and big, grand encounters before because the encounters fundamentally weren't that difficult. There was a little coordination required, of course, but it pales in comparison to what coordination is required now, and with the current mechanics of many bosses in current tiers, coordinating 40 people in anything but a watered down mode where mechanics are greatly reduced, a la LFR, would be next to impossible. I highly doubt Blizzard's raiding model would've included ever-more-demanding fights with ever-more-people to manage, that's just counterintuitive.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yes, let's pour money into stuff nobody or close to it will experience. This is a perfect business model... oh wait no it's crap.



    And not everyone should see the end of the movie even if they paid for it. Makes perfect sense to me... oh wait, no again.

    In short, get yourself an economy manual, please. Or better yet, if you want to be Elite, get a very well paid job, that will get you much more recognition in the society.
    Here's the thing, this Is NOT a movie.
    Wow was at Its prime when most of the people haven't seen Endgame content,
    So maybe Instead of getting an economy manual you should just learn from the past...

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keny View Post
    Wow was at Its prime when most of the people haven't seen Endgame content,
    So maybe Instead of getting an economy manual you should just learn from the past...
    Unlike some people, I'm not a complete ignorant when it comes to VG economy.
    So unlike some people, I know that WoW growth during vanilla was due to
    a) an absence of competition on the same segment,
    b) the competitors being WAY more hardcore than WoW (LA2 and EQ say hi)
    And most importantly,
    c) The huge churn of players.

    Problem is, this growth model only works when the MMO market was not saturated, since it allows you to find huge supply of "noobz" to finance the growth.
    When the market becomes saturated (which for MMOs happened around 2008-2009), the model no longer works.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  4. #24
    Brewmaster Detheavn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    At least you know it's crazy.
    This basically sums up my opinion as well.

  5. #25
    Brewmaster Marston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Oondasta and Nalak!

    ...oh wait.
    Even better:
    10 man heroic vs. 25 man LFR! LFR must be harder because there are more people! Right?

    It all comes down to tuning in the end. Blizzard could design 5 mans that are as difficult as heroic raids if they want. They could even tune extremel hard solo content (just look at the Brawler's guild or the green fire quest - not something your average Joe can do).

  6. #26
    We can all agree the idea on Deathwing's fight that Blizzard put out was terribly grievous. I like this idea better (maybe not the 60 men part for tech stakes).

  7. #27
    You know, you could have written a much shorter and easier to read article and still say the same thing - that you think that "casuals" should stick to mini-games while dungeons and raids should be there for hardcore players only.

    The whole thing is nonsense, by the way.

  8. #28
    Dreadlord Geodew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgesh View Post
    Also no not more players = harder, just more significance, and well in a way harder in a teamwork sense, its certainly more difficult if every member needs to be alive or the entire raid goes down hill. I know, I know 60 is extreme, but I was talking about Deathwing so it needed to be a bit extreme. Also who said you can't raid, you can raid lesser bosses in an instance if you're not that great or have a group with enough teamwork, but you'll get the reward you deserve of course and the guy who kills the hardest boss definitely smashes your face.
    I think you're thinking too much about flavor and not enough about GAME DESIGN. It's not "I don't have 59 friends." It's more like "I don't have 59 friends, but I could make more. However, managing a guild of that size would eat your life." How do you find 60 people who GET ALONG well enough, are skilled enough to do the hardest raids, can all make raid time (people have jobs, get over it)... In fact you'd have to find much more than 60 people. With a raid size of 60, a couple people would always be missing. It's my Mom's birthday, it's my anniversary and I'm going out with my spouse, etc etc. Then you'd have to over-recruit, and then people get benched. I'd rather be in a 10m and never get benched than be in a 60m and rotate with people.

    I'm POSITIVE there are even more factors about designing raids for 60 people that I haven't mentioned, like maybe your computer's ability to register 60 people firing all the spell effects they can muster while the boss is doing some graphics-intensive mechanic. I didn't play in the days of 40m (don't let that bias you, lest you ignore the validity of my points), but I'm fairly sure there's a reason Blizz moved away from that model -- a reason related to guild management. Your ideas, your dream... it's simply not practical from a game design perspective.

    There's also no reason why for every new boss you need to recruit 10+ more raiders. Is Garrosh 70m? That's horrid game design. I would unsub right now if Blizz said they were doing that next expansion where you have to grow your raid team every tier, or I'd at least unsub after I finished Hrc T16 anyway. Finding new raiders by spamming trade chat, hoping they're not a douche, hoping they're not a baddie, spending time helping them gear, and wiping because they're undergeared -- it's not a fun part of the game.

  9. #29
    Would actually like a tl;dr-clause at the end summing up exactly what it is you want.

    But about the 60mans raids. Dear god no. It's hard enough just to find 10 nice, good players on our server.
    Don't think there's any 25 man alive on our server hordeside. Some that claims to be, but they're mostly raiding 10-man now, and once in a blue moon they gather enough for 25 man.
    Raided in a 40-man and the dedication and the special feeling of that, and the game being new, made us accept some of differences more. I don't see the playerbase accept things in the same way anymore.

    That being said, there is some more epic feeling to doing hard things in a big group of people you know. Unlike the current worldbosses.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  10. #30
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgesh View Post
    You were never supposed to force raiding on everybody. You weren’t even supposed to force dungeons on everybody.

    There are millions of people on this game all looking to be called the best. Things like the World First documentary can attest to this. You weren’t supposed to force progression and make everybody run the same dungeons over and over again. All you had to do was give credit where credit was due. There are millions of people out there pursuing greatness, looking for adoration or something to do with the greatness they have attuned.
    .
    This is where you get it wrong.

    Therer aren't millions of people seeking greatness. There is a small handful who do that, and they are irrelevent.

    Everyone else is playing a game.
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