1. #1

    Heroic Lei Shen - Affliction vs Demo

    Currently working on Heroic Lei Shen and I have been running with Affliction however I am looking at changing over to Demo. I never got the UVLS trinket so I am running without that.

    My issue is as follows, on the actual fight, my Affliction numbers are quite subpar and hovering around 150-180K even though I have many top rankings on other fights this tier, I have always had low numbers on Lei Shen as Affliction.

    But I sim out at about 213,000 on Affliction and I can't seem to sim Demo higher than 202,000 no matter what reforge I try. Most actually sim out at about 198K and the 202K sims are with keeping my Affliction reforge.

    Should I still be changing over to Demo and will I actually see higher numbers on the fight due to the small time the Ball Lightnings are up?

    I want to improve my numbers substantially on the fight and I am not pleased with where they are at based on how well I normally play.

    Any tips on maximizing the DPS for Demo without UVLS and even though it sims lower, should I change to Demo for the Ball Lightnings even though they are up for a minimal amount of time? I find they are all spread out in Phase 3 anyways, the only time we have issues.
    Last edited by Blaizze; 2013-07-21 at 09:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Quick answer: for 25 man, go demo, for 10 man, it's not that important.

    Longer answer: you may also wanna consider demo for 10 man, cause once your raid has the required dps to puch into transitions without leveling up more than you want, you won't win that much from more boss damage. More add damage on the other hand, is very welcome, especially in the final phase.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by rables View Post
    Quick answer: for 25 man, go demo, for 10 man, it's not that important.

    Longer answer: you may also wanna consider demo for 10 man, cause once your raid has the required dps to puch into transitions without leveling up more than you want, you won't win that much from more boss damage. More add damage on the other hand, is very welcome, especially in the final phase.
    it's 10man from what i'm seeing, read the last part, the balls are spread in p3, no 25man is going to work like that :P

  4. #4
    I am from a 25m / only just getting reliable first transitions atm, ymmv:

    At least in 25m, MF rather than KJC is viable, how far are you spreading balls? Would that be enough to make it a win either way?

    Do you have a log? Currently we run 3 demo + 1 aff, and the affi sits significantly behind - be interesting to compare.
    Last edited by rijn dael; 2013-07-22 at 12:03 AM.

  5. #5
    I've never found it necessary for MF on 25 man. The balls are so packed together that the extra range on aoe is not really necessary.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    I am from a 25m / only just getting reliable first transitions atm, ymmv:

    At least in 25m, MF rather than KJC is viable, how far are you spreading balls? Would that be enough to make it a win either way?

    Do you have a log? Currently we run 3 demo + 1 aff, and the affi sits significantly behind - be interesting to compare.
    I think you'll find you want KJC when you start hitting the last phase.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by zey View Post
    I think you'll find you want KJC when you start hitting the last phase.
    So far I have been using KJC for our wipes, but I have been pointed at people using it - and doing comparable damage, but better overall damage on balls.

    I haven't seen ball damage as a problem in my (25m) wipes - we position locks on top of the DK's - but seemed like something to bring up if a 10m has issues with ball damage, and / or isn't able to control them as well (lack of DK, aoe cc etc).
    Last edited by rijn dael; 2013-07-22 at 02:42 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by zey View Post
    I think you'll find you want KJC when you start hitting the last phase.
    Thats not exactly true, when you get into last phase the KJC slow is more if a problem then a boon since you have to move away from melee for thunderstruck then back towards melee to avoid thunderstruck dmg, then back out for ball lightning then back in to AoE them down. As demo you rarely need KJC anyways with all the fury you gain during the last phase your in meta 70% of the time so you can cast ToC while on the move most of the time and just spam soulfires in between.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rijn dael View Post
    I am from a 25m / only just getting reliable first transitions atm, ymmv:

    At least in 25m, MF rather than KJC is viable, how far are you spreading balls? Would that be enough to make it a win either way?

    Do you have a log? Currently we run 3 demo + 1 aff, and the affi sits significantly behind - be interesting to compare.
    Here from 2 weeks ago:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=15&e=589

    I ran Aff and the other 2 locks are Demo. It wasn't perfect execution of seeding but was the first time I'd attempted doing it.

    Realistically you don't even need to help with ball damage assuming 25 man with at least 2 Demo Locks.

    Edit: Also - ran KJC basically required for the fight. But you'll need to have Burning Rush on full time to get away from the Thunderstrucks in time.

  10. #10
    High Overlord pvw1075's Avatar
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    I tried running aff and it was really bad... went Demo, and it was like going day to night... oh duh this is for H...me and my guild arent good enough for that...

    my logs from tonight
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=3789&e=4262
    Last edited by pvw1075; 2013-07-22 at 05:41 AM.

  11. #11
    I also prefer not using KJC on lei shen HC. The movement before phase 3 is very predictable and you can prepare it by having enough fury for ToC on the move, or have spells like HoG and Life Tap ready. In the final phase, i found KJC more of a curse than a blessing on the attempts i've used it. With the 30% slow you cannot move against the winds, leaving you with only leap and portal, which just doesn't quite cut it. I prefer having a little downtime, and MF is really quite good on 10 man as well.

  12. #12
    Moderator Alarinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rables View Post
    I also prefer not using KJC on lei shen HC. The movement before phase 3 is very predictable and you can prepare it by having enough fury for ToC on the move, or have spells like HoG and Life Tap ready. In the final phase, i found KJC more of a curse than a blessing on the attempts i've used it. With the 30% slow you cannot move against the winds, leaving you with only leap and portal, which just doesn't quite cut it. I prefer having a little downtime, and MF is really quite good on 10 man as well.
    Demonic Circle: Teleport, then? No, kjc snare doesn't mean anything at all in the final phase. leap and rush is more than enough, you don't even need gateway. Save the DC:T for those "oh snap" moments.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Alarinth View Post
    Demonic Circle: Teleport, then? No, kjc snare doesn't mean anything at all in the final phase. leap and rush is more than enough, you don't even need gateway. Save the DC:T for those "oh snap" moments.
    Keep in mind he's progressing. Having 3 seconds downtime to avoid a 300k thunderstruck may very well be the difference between a kill and a wipe. Phase 3 is all about add control and damage avoidance, not really about dps, especially if you manage to keep lust for the final phase.

  14. #14
    Aff just doesn't bring anything special to lei shen. You don't really multi dot and the only aoe you need is burst aoe which is a notorious weak point of affliction (at least until 5.4 MF seeds). Aff doesn't offer any special buffs or debuffs nor does it gain you any major survival.

    The biggest thing demo brings is aoe burst and control (carrion swarm also interrupts btw). Plus you get aoe CoE as an aura with demo. You also get mobility from more instants with leap on top of everything else. That advantage works for demo with or without UVLS so its not gear dependent per se. UVLS is purely for more damage which isn't usually the throttle on that fight as much as mechanics are.

    To min/max on lei shen you want to go for high mastery IF ball lighting is your problem. UVLS doesn't matter since maybe 1 of the 200-300 pulls it typically takes to learn the fight you'll see a UVLS proc during ball lightning lol. High mastery is reliable aoe burst which is what that bottleneck requires. Patchwerk dps is less critical and depends on your specific setup. I do recommend using grimoire of service and the basics of spending your DF with temporary buffs up as much as possible. (IE meta for trinket/lightweave/jade spirit procs and caster shadowbolting for when nothing is happening)

  15. #15
    I don't understand what mannoroth's fury brings to the fight on 25 man that people actually spec for it. Hellfire has a decent enough range that even if you're standing out for ball of lightning spawns, you still have enough room and time to use a regular hellfire. Even with the kjc snare, you can get far enough for TS to floor on damage for most of your raid but if it's that much of a problem, you can ask for wind walk totems or blessing of freedom.
    Last edited by Jetjaguar; 2013-07-22 at 04:21 PM.
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  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaizze View Post
    Currently working on Heroic Lei Shen and I have been running with Affliction however I am looking at changing over to Demo. I never got the UVLS trinket so I am running without that.

    My issue is as follows, on the actual fight, my Affliction numbers are quite subpar and hovering around 150-180K even though I have many top rankings on other fights this tier, I have always had low numbers on Lei Shen as Affliction.

    But I sim out at about 213,000 on Affliction and I can't seem to sim Demo higher than 202,000 no matter what reforge I try. Most actually sim out at about 198K and the 202K sims are with keeping my Affliction reforge.

    Should I still be changing over to Demo and will I actually see higher numbers on the fight due to the small time the Ball Lightnings are up?

    I want to improve my numbers substantially on the fight and I am not pleased with where they are at based on how well I normally play.

    Any tips on maximizing the DPS for Demo without UVLS and even though it sims lower, should I change to Demo for the Ball Lightnings even though they are up for a minimal amount of time? I find they are all spread out in Phase 3 anyways, the only time we have issues.
    For 25 man Progress I cant imagine doing progress without Demo. Demo is like built for lei shen so perfectly. For 10 man im not really sure, ive heard both destro and afflic are viable.
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  17. #17
    If you play 25: go Demo, it's just a lot better.

    But it seems you are playing 10, so: first of all, if you are at 180k overall dps at the end of the fight, that's really decent. You say you sim 213k, but on Lei Shen that would be world rank 1.

    Personally I was playing 10m when I first progressed this and was in the same situation as you: not having UVLS, I was reluctant to switch to Demo. In the end, it depends if you need the extra damage on Ball Lightning or not. In my situation, we had a Brewmaster killing them so insanely fast that I would have not been close to half his damage on them even as Demo. For that reason, I decided to stick with Affliction and that worked fine for me.

    That said, Demo has other advantages. More instant casts makes it more mobile even with KJC (less snare), and Leap can be really useful in the last phase especially. On the other hand, considering you have no UVLS and seem confident you can play Affliction well, you will probably do more damage on the boss with Affliction. The fight might not be ''about'' dps on the boss, but reducing the time you need to end it from the start of p3 is very useful.

  18. #18
    Not sure about 10 man, but the reason you go demo isn't for DPS reasons, its for the utility. The fights dps checks aren't soooo strict that you'd really need to be any of the 3 specs since all of the real dps checks are single target, the rest is just padding on balls etc.

    I played all of lei shen progression as aff until we got to phase 3, and at that point I switched to demo and took a 10k sim'd dps loss without hesitation because having a leap during that phase is a massive help to survivability and dps up time. Also having a leap during the intermissions was a huge help when people went to not so sensical bouncing bolt locations and I would leap across my section in order to just barely save us from spawning an add. aaaand again having a leap is really nice for what you can get away with positioning wise and still get in overcharges in time during intermission.

    buuut I could see all this being a non-issue in 10 man, I'm not sure though as I haven't ever done it. Fight is an entirely different animal on 25 vs 10 which is why you see a lot more people demo on 25.

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