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  1. #121
    I would love to see a more time/space themed arcane with actual mana management. Right now it feels like Mana Adept is itself the very enemy of the specc. Before mastery was added I thought Arcane was all about unstable raw arcane energy, then when Mana Adept popped up I changed my mind and thought "ohh its about control of pure mana". But right now it feels like the two concepts fight with each other creating an abomination specc with no real purpose, boring gameplay, minimal animations and disturbingly awful quality in general.

    I believe more spells should be added in every specc for mage in order to become interesting again. All the other casters seem to have evolved over the years while mages are still the guys in the robes simply throwing weak looking bolts of elements. I don't see a master of the arcane when I stand next to other casters , I just see a boring scholar while the others all seem to have a mastery over whatever each one of them is doing.

  2. #122
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magemaer View Post
    I really hope blizzard doesn't listen to this. So many outrageous propositions. Mages are in a good place right now, don't try to drag our class to the pit.
    This again?

    It's fine if you don't agree with all of what's being said (although I don't see how that's possible without just being contrary), but at least back up your opinion with some substance.

  3. #123
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This again?

    It's fine if you don't agree with all of what's being said (although I don't see how that's possible without just being contrary), but at least back up your opinion with some substance.
    The beauty of this post is that all feedback is incorporated. That's sort of an anti-troll measure. If they truly disagree, they'd share some thoughts on it and it'd be right on the front page with everyone else's feedback. To simply be a contrarian serves no end but whatever majority trend there is.

    Hoping for a reply from zomgDPS today! This weekend I'm initiating Phase 2 of getting us the attention we deserve.

  4. #124
    Everything you're saying sounds like making some improvements to mages similar to what he's saying for rogues and hunters.

    I don't think any of the classes need a major overhaul at this point. They just need improvement, refinement, and some diversity on specs.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  5. #125
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    Silmandel on Stormrage-US, of guild Tattered Legends. Currently I'm at 534 ilvl.

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    All of them. I played Arcane and Frost and Fire in T14.

    3) Tier 15?
    Frost, then Fire.

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    I'd still play all of them. I love Mages the class in general. If all other things were equal, I'd probably switch specs every month just to stay current with spec playstyle and mages as a whole.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    It's not like we have much to sacrifice, but no. I would not sacrifice diversity in the name of scaling or balance. This kind of thinking is what got us to where we are today.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    I don't mind changing specs for fights; above playing Arcane, Fire, or Frost, I play Mage (unlike our other guild mage who is exclusively Arcane and treats any other spec as being against his religion). As for all gear working for all specs, this is an important point since our current gearing model (once the hit cap has been reached) is Mastery > Haste >> Crit for Arcane, Crit > Mastery > Haste for Fire, and Crit to near cap > Haste to Frost GCD with CDs > Mastery > Haste > Crit for Frost (in other words, very different across all three specs).

    Armors I feel are awkward. They feel like tools to prop up your secondaries instead of being taken for their defensive uses, more so in PvE than PvP. IMO it would be better to divorce the secondaries from the armors entirely and use the armors as a true defensive tool.

    I still think it's important that the specs have unique identity and playstyle. Arcane I feel should be entirely about highly controlled and well-managed play - no procs, a token DoT, just pure mana and Arcane charge management (but without our current ridiculous Mastery) with high burst. Fire should be about heavy DoTs, heavy DoT cleaving, burning everything in sight, fearsome AoE, and mass destruction. Frost should be precise, surgical, and coldly efficient - high frontloaded criticals, lots of snares and freezes, a great deal of control, no DoTs, and procs that grant instant or channeled spells.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    This ridiculous notion that the rest of the playerbase has about Mages being a no-skill, faceroll class that magically destroys them in PvP and PvE without effort.

  6. #126
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?

    Kimmy - Kazzak - EU - 538

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?

    Fire and Frost, played fire up until the last few moments of that tier then switched to Frost.

    3) Tier 15?

    Frost - loving it, but hating it at the same time. Love the style in which it is presented (FoF, BF, etc) but because of the serious scaling issues makes it a pain. And i do not want to be forced out of a spec which i love to play because it doesn't compete with fire at all at a higher level.

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    Frost no questions asked, i have played all specs in my years of raiding and i have most definatly enjoyed Frost the most, Arcane being least and fire is a happy medium.
    As an additional note i would love for DF to come back into the PVE rotation, it was stupid to ditch it in my opinion. It helps separate PVE to PVP damage and burst, and could possibly keep frost viable for PVE! Maybe DF could work as a dot, similar to flameshock or something along those lines, i would prefer straight damage, but just as a suggestion? ? ?

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    It would be nice to see all 3 specs to be applicable to raiding, i detest the way how frost seems to have always been pushed towards the PVP category, i am loving it in PvE and would hate for it to be destroyed any more in respect to PvE. Gief a solution to frost scaling issues!

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    Hmm, i think it would be nice to be able to carry out all 3 specs in what ever spec/gear one has with forgings and gems etc, however i think there is a chance it would make it boring between specs. Hard to say without experiencing it.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    Give mages some unique raid utility, they have squat now!
    Create new lvl90 talents - fun and exciting, raid worthy, possibly the utility we need!?!?
    Last edited by Kmonski; 2013-08-08 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Item level increase, added little more text to Q4

  7. #127
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Alrighty community - you have until 8/9 to get things written up.

    Then I'm compiling, analyzing, and sending this bad boy on.

  8. #128
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?

    Senabrin - Zul'jin - US - 505 (swapped mains for this xpac)

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?

    All of them

    3) Tier 15?

    Just Frost at the moment

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    I'd go with playing Fire. FFB fire hybrid spec and TotW Fire were my favorite mage specs and probably one of my favorite times playing as a dps. I love the idea of scorching foes to a crisp with destructive flames.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    I would not sacrifice spec diversity in order for thematics honestly. Even if you can SEE different colored spells while you play, all 3 specs playing the same would feel like you're playing checkers over and over again...just with different colored pieces; it's the same game regardless.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    I'm not sure how I would feel about it at first, but I don't see a reason not to. We are playing a pure class, why should it be that we stick to one spec like glue? If one spec helps my raid out tremendously on a fight, and it doesn't require massive re-gearing, then I'd be happily okay with it

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    It's really hard to post one thing, and since the majority of mages are posting about the 90 talents, I'll post something different (put me down for removing the 90 talents too btw)
    I want more spec diversity, not keep up X, spam Y, press Z when something procs with different colored bolts. I want to feel like how I do on my warlock where the specs are all fun and play differently from each other. I want the specs to FEEL massively different but being fun in their own, iconic way.

  9. #129
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    Daísy - EU-Antonidas - 543

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    Fire & Frost

    3) Tier 15?
    Frost & Arcane

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    Frost or Arcane, but I dislike the current Arcane style, so mainly Frost.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    As long as it is not too similar. Having an optional pet for each spec with different abilities might be interesting, i.e. Frost: single target Water Elemental, Fire: AoE Phoenix, Arcane: maybe some kind of mana-restoration?
    As a temporary solution it would be ok, but I think the signature of the specs: Arcane -time and raw magic, Fire - burning everything in sight, Frost - Control and Shatter should be kept. Respeccing for different fights is ok, but the difference should be small across the board, i.e. it should not be that you are _required_ to change specs. So I would say for any given fight a spec-to-spec variance of 5-10% is ok (as long as not one spec dominates for all fights), but more would probably break it.


    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    I think that is actually a good idea. The armor could work like something along the line of "Exchanges your xx rating and yy rating" or "counts z% of your xx rating as yy rating"

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    L90 talents. There is not really a choice.Keeping Invocation up is more or less a no-brainer, RoP is a pain (and unfortunately arcane needs it) and IW is pretty much useless after the changes. Here we could have the choice e.g. of having a permanent pet or a buff to our spells or a stronger pet as cooldown.

    so Level 90 talents could look like:
    1 - The mage conjures a permanent pet to help him in battle. The pet inherits all it's masters stats and does damage about 10% of the master.
    2 - The mage learns the ability to call forth a mighty companions, which help him in battle and do damage about 20% of the master. 30s, 1min CD.
    3 - The mage sacrifices his ability to control conjured creatures and uses his energies to focus on the enemy. All damage increased by 10%.
    Last talent means of course that he also looses the special abilities of the pets, which should be strictly utility type. I also guess talent 2 needs some PVP balancing.

    I think also Mana-stones (similar to WL Healthstones) are a cool idea in terms of improving raid utility.
    Last edited by Light4; 2013-08-09 at 09:28 AM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    [*]Burn/Conserve model was popular in Cataclysm, but excludes Arcane Barrage if executed today.
    I'm not sure how "popular" it was. I know I completely hated it. I felt useful for 15 seconds and then like dead weight holding onto a thread for a minute and a half. Don't mistake "popular" for "people liked it because it was effective." There's a difference between liking a spec and liking the numbers it put up.

  11. #131
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    I'm not sure how "popular" it was. I know I completely hated it. I felt useful for 15 seconds and then like dead weight holding onto a thread for a minute and a half. Don't mistake "popular" for "people liked it because it was effective." There's a difference between liking a spec and liking the numbers it put up.
    Yeah I'm going to reword that point to try to get across that it's good for Arcane Barrage to exist, but not as a substitute for a burn phase.

  12. #132
    I liked the BC Arcane-playstyle, where more mana always meant more dps, but you had to weave in frostbolts to conserve mana. I could image something like AB & Abarr generate charges, AM refreshes, all arcane spells profit from charges. AM is a free proc from all casts.
    Playstyle would be to use AB while standing, Abarr on the move (at a damage penalty and Abarr could have e.g. 3 charges regenerating every 9s) and weave in AM or off-school spells to conserve mana. Of course that would require a complete rework of L90 talents.

  13. #133
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    I'm not sure how "popular" it was. I know I completely hated it. I felt useful for 15 seconds and then like dead weight holding onto a thread for a minute and a half. Don't mistake "popular" for "people liked it because it was effective." There's a difference between liking a spec and liking the numbers it put up.
    Uh, not sure what gear you had, but in Cata I spent more time in burn than conserve. Sounds like you had lower gear and couldn't support the spec.

    That being said, I still preferred Fire. Cata and Wrath Arcane are just more fun versions of Arcane than current Arcane. I'd actually venture to say MoP Arcane is my least favorite spec in all of WoW's history.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-08-08 at 01:25 AM. Reason: made it less unintentionally mean

  14. #134
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    Blowmeup Area-52 US 540

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    Arcane

    3) Tier 15?
    Frost and Fire

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    I like Frost but I despise the Water Ele. Even if there was real involvement with it I would still hate the mechanics of a Pet. I like the excitment of seeing large numbers of fire and is the epitome of a Nuker Class. I really liked the flow of Arcane. I honestly have no problem playing any spec and would play the one with the highest DPS as long as Frost doesnt have the Water Elemental.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    What spec diversity? Arcane did feel a little bit different than fire or frost but the later two felt almost exactly the same. Slightly boring game play.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    I would have no problem switching between specs from fight to fight but currently it is simply not possible to do mid raid

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    There are far too many bland/Boring/Outdated spells/talents. The Entire tier 15 Ice Barrier Cold Snap Mirror Image
    Last edited by Blowmeup; 2013-08-08 at 01:49 AM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Uh, not sure what gear you had, but in Cata I spent more time in burn than conserve. Sounds like you had lower gear and couldn't support the spec.

    That being said, I still preferred Fire. Cata and Wrath Arcane are just more fun versions of Arcane than current Arcane. I'd actually venture to say MoP Arcane is my least favorite spec in all of WoW's history.
    Well it wasn't so much having high end or low end gear, it was about having 1 certain piece of gear that was the difference between the spec being playable or not, I loved the design idea of cata arcane but if it REQUIRED shard to be competitive, it was the uvls of that expansion.

    As a side note, there have been changes to the game that have made arcane unable to go back to the old form as effectively, most notably static mana pools, having massive pools of mana made burn phases longer and basically acted as the damage scaling for the spec, current model would end up as "burn for x seconds then conserve"

  16. #136
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Well it wasn't so much having high end or low end gear, it was about having 1 certain piece of gear that was the difference between the spec being playable or not, I loved the design idea of cata arcane but if it REQUIRED shard to be competitive, it was the uvls of that expansion.

    As a side note, there have been changes to the game that have made arcane unable to go back to the old form as effectively, most notably static mana pools, having massive pools of mana made burn phases longer and basically acted as the damage scaling for the spec, current model would end up as "burn for x seconds then conserve"
    I never had Shard and I was fine when I played Arcane.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    No one in their right mind is asking for a complete overhaul like the warlocks got, we just would like to get the same attention that rogues and hunters will get next expansion. It's kind of a slap in the face to exclude mages from that list, seeing as we'll be the only pure class that won't get a good amount of attention, according to that tweet.
    I don't, Hunter and Rogue specs are far less distinct than the three Mage specs, which have always had obvious differences in kit and playstyle. It's no slap in the face at all, just reality.

    I'm not even convinced Mages need more spec differentiation. Or many changes at all, beyond possibly the talent tree - which is independent of spec.
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  18. #138
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    Leviatron, Stormrage - US, 522

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    Frost

    3) Tier 15?
    Frost

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    Frost, I have always enjoyed the spec and the idea of a class freezing their targets. I just never made my mage until the end of Cata.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    No, if there was no diversity there would be no point to have specs for a mage in general then. I don't mind having to use other spells outside of frost spells, just when they dominate the damage it makes me feel out of place. That is why I was so stuck on frost bomb. I just wish they had made frost bomb into an old school short duration DOOM.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    I cannot lean in favor of a yes or no answer. I like that not all gear is perfect for each spec because it helps with the diversity not just for our class, but all classes in general. I'd prefer more diversity in the mage armor other just just giving crit, haste, or mastery. Maybe have hybrids of each instead of single stat buffs. I don't think having a single spec that only works on each fight is fair. It would be different, but to have to change specs constantly to me would be annoying. Playing the one spec I like the most makes me the happiest.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    Ugh, just one? So not a fair question. I would have to say remove Alter Time. I know the class isn't totally balanced around it, but the fact it can break the class and some abilities that bosses do just is not right in any sense.

  19. #139
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    Latéx, Frostwhisper EU, 545

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    Fire, Frost and Arcane

    3) Tier 15?
    Fire and Frost

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    I usually get bored playing one spec all the time so the up side to me of constant nerfing and buffing is I'm forced out of my comfort zone and playing a spec I perhaps haven't tried for a while :P If you want an answer I'll say fire.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    No

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    I don't mind certain fights favouring certain specs that's to be expected, I just hate having to feel forced to go a certain spec or be useless.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    Get rid of level 90 talents. Talents are supposed to make you feel awesome, they don't feel awesome, they feel like a punishment.

    Other stuff:
    What Cata did well was that each spec felt thematically strong. Fire mages used fire spells, frost used frost spells, etc, the bomb tier in particular ruins this for me. I don't really understand the thinking that goes behind each bomb, right now Living Bomb is the single target bomb. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'd get rid of that entire tier, give Living Bomb to Fire, give Nether Tempest to Arcane and balance each one independently. Not sure what I'd do with Frost Bomb, I'd say get rid so Frost Mages wouldn't have to deal with it but I'm sure some people love it.

    Mobility (especially for Arcane) is quite annoying. When I see Warlocks and Hunters doing full dps rotations on the move with little or no penalty it's unfair. Blizzard tried to nerf Warlock mobility, but instead ended up giving it them back and buffing their other talents to make them even more awesome, yet here I am, standing in a Rune like a chump.

    I quite dislike Alter Time as well. I'd prefer it if it was used for survival or mobility purposes rather than a dps increaser.
    Last edited by Latex; 2013-08-08 at 03:28 PM.

  20. #140
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    dumdedum, exodar EU, 546

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    All of them

    3) Tier 15?
    All of them

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    Probably fire because its mobility

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    No

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    Seems to me like a nice solution, right now you can't change specs between bosses.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    Completely get rid of 90 talents and change them to make us useful for the raid.

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