1. #1

    Mage Bomb Question (Multidotting on useless targets to increase single target dps?)

    Hello,

    does multidotting with Mage Bomb increase single target dps in Arcane specc?
    Consider for this question the damage done by Mage Bomb on other targets as completely wasted, I just want to know, if the single target dps on the only relevant target gets better (maybe proccs) or worse (less casts on focus target).

    Thanks in advance.
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Killem View Post
    Hello,

    does multidotting with Mage Bomb increase single target dps in Arcane specc?
    Consider for this question the damage done by Mage Bomb on other targets as completely wasted, I just want to know, if the single target dps on the only relevant target gets better (maybe proccs) or worse (less casts on focus target).

    Thanks in advance.
    If I am fishing for AM procs I sometimes dot up other targets than the main target to avoid overriding buffed bombs.

    Also while you are dotting up other targets you are regenerating mana.
    Last edited by vvaniish; 2014-03-31 at 07:44 AM.

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  3. #3
    This probably has to do smt with mage's multidoting and u are not happy with it.

    Yes if we mulitidot on klaxi for example we fish for AM procs and by that we stay far much more time on 4 stacks that inc our dmg to single target.

  4. #4
    As the others stated above mostly to fish for AM Procs.
    Last edited by Moronordon; 2014-03-31 at 12:38 PM.

  5. #5
    The Patient Deithy's Avatar
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    Fishing for AM yes, but there are some scenarios where it could probably increase the ST damage as well, but that is only in the case of Nether tempest.
    The only scenarios i can think of are Galakras in the situation where you have downed the drake and there are still adds up. In my situation we kite the assassins on Nazgrim encounter next to him so the can be cleaved down by the melles and everybody who is capable of it, Malkorok hc too if u can manage to multidot the adds before they be griped to him by the tanks and other melles(but that's pure padding ), and most brightest example will be Klaxxi, because most of the time ther eis another bug next to the kill target, so that basically increase your damage on the said target.

    Im not sure but i actually use Fire bomb on Malkorok because the adds die fast and when they die that's 2 explosions right next to the boss. Same with the adds on the Dark shaman encounter. Our tank deal with blobs in a manner that leave them next to the boss and we aoe like mad and i stoped blinking in to spam cone of cold and AE and just dot as many blobs i can. I must say its fun because all the time i watch explosions around the boss, because the adds die so fast. Still blinking in with cone and AE is more effective ofcourse (what can i say sometimes i like watching things blowing up hihi)
    Last edited by Deithy; 2014-04-01 at 06:41 AM.
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  6. #6
    Im not sure but i actually use Fire bomb on Malkorok because the adds die fast and when they die that's 2 explosions right next to the boss. Same with the adds on the Dark shaman encounter. Our tank deal with blobs in a manner that leave them next to the boss and we aoe like mad and i stoped blinking in to spam cone of cold and AE and just dot as many blobs i can.
    In most cases, using NT on Malkorok adds = aggro unless your tank is spot on 100% of the fight. I just roll Living Bomb and let other classes cleave them down. Dark Shaman is entirely strat dependent and # of Warlocks you have (their damage on Blobs is more than they do on the boss) so you can easily just camp on the boss and leave the Blobs alone. Nazgrim is strat dependent as well. Some guilds tank him alone the whole fight while others just keep him in cleave range and then move him out during Defensive Stance. When I was with a guild that kept him alone I just used Living Bomb. My current guild keeps him in cleave range so I can use NT.

    Galakras, Protectors and Paragons are fights where you can stay at 4-charges almost the entire fight (provided you don't have a lot of downtime between Galakras add waves) with the amount of multi-dotting you can do.

    @As others have said, multi-dotting does increase single target DPS for Arcane since you can fish for AM procs even if there isn't an absolute need to multi-dot.

  7. #7
    Fishing for AM procs has been covered, but you should also take into account the situation you are in.

    Are you on H. Paragons and in the "time to burn down Skeer" part of the fight? Then no, you should not be multi-dotting to fish for AM procs as you are required to be burning Skeer right now. Or if you need to burn down Korvan while another paragon is ambered, then you should not be wasting GCDs.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mejn View Post
    This probably has to do smt with mage's multidoting and u are not happy with it. (...)
    I ask more, to understand, how the damage can be increased for two reasons.
    First reason is increasing the raids damage on Garrosh hc.
    Second reason is my mage alt and how to improve myself, since there is not everything covered in guides and I also prefer understanding, why I should do something, instead of being told to do. Knowledge and understanding is always important.


    Thanks for your answers, but those led to additional questions.
    Is there a maximum of targets, after which the increase on the focus target diminishes.
    Provided that this maximum is more than 2 targets (Living Bomb target cap 2+1), would Nether Tempest a damage gain, even if it cannot provide it's cleave damage due to range and has a slightly longer GCD?

    To be less abstract, think of Garrosh 10 hc, with a warlock the only other person, that does some damage to the weapons with Immolate (and executes them, when below 20%, to do another Chaos Bolt on the Boss).


    As additional question, under what circumstances makes that multidotting sense?
    From the feedback you already provided, my conclusion is, to utilise haste proccs on multidotting without clipping, but nuking the focus target, when int proccs are active, thus letting the additional bombs have some lower uptime. (only if the additional targets are irrelevant damage)
    Is this conclusion correct?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killem View Post
    Is there a maximum of targets, after which the increase on the focus target diminishes.
    First thought that come in mind is that it depends - is it farm boss or progress boss.
    If farm boss then multidoting is just for padding/"owning" the damage meter. If progress then it depends what you do there, but mostly depends if the additional targets are in cleave range, if they share they total HPs, how dangerous are the additional targets and how many people can also multidot/cleave them too.

    Examples where the multidoting is worth no matter the number of targets (from my PoV): Protectors - its worth it to dot everything that moves; Norushen - every single add share its HP with the boss, aka when it dies it deals damage to the boss equals to their HP so its worth again to dot everything that moves; Dark Shamans - bosses share HP; Nazgrim - adds have to die ASAP;
    Examples where the multidoting is not worth no matter the number of targets (from my PoV): Sha of Pride - the tanks can deal with the adds and you have to deal with the closest banishment around you ASAP, so multidoting there might be a loss (2 seconds can be the difference between death and life for the banished person ); In Malkorok, Spoils, Thok, Klaxxi and Garosh encounters the multidoting htere is for just pure padding, maybe arguable for Spoils and depends on how you deal with Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killem View Post
    Provided that this maximum is more than 2 targets (Living Bomb target cap 2+1), would Nether Tempest a damage gain, even if it cannot provide it's cleave damage due to range and has a slightly longer GCD?
    To be less abstract, think of Garrosh 10 hc, with a warlock the only other person, that does some damage to the weapons with Immolate (and executes them, when below 20%, to do another Chaos Bolt on the Boss).
    IF Nether tempest can't offer its cleave damage on 2 to 3 target fight then Living bomb is the better choice. BUT if by any chance 2 of these 3 targets are in NT cleave range then NT is the pure winner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killem View Post
    As additional question, under what circumstances makes that multidotting sense?
    I think i kinda gave the answer to this question above, but lets sum it again - strongest "sense" is when multiple targets share their HPs, are in cleave range of each other and there is target pulled aside of the raid that have to die, but its not that crucial to die asap. The "sense" diminish in most other scenarios or its just pure padding (brightest example - Pad-a-gons as some people call them)

    Quote Originally Posted by Killem View Post
    From the feedback you already provided, my conclusion is, to utilise haste proccs on multidotting without clipping, but nuking the focus target, when int proccs are active, thus letting the additional bombs have some lower uptime. (only if the additional targets are irrelevant damage)
    Is this conclusion correct?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Deithy View Post
    Fishing for AM yes, but there are some scenarios where it could probably increase the ST damage as well, but that is only in the case of Nether tempest.
    The only scenarios i can think of are Galakras in the situation where you have downed the drake and there are still adds up. In my situation we kite the assassins on Nazgrim encounter next to him so the can be cleaved down by the melles and everybody who is capable of it, Malkorok hc too if u can manage to multidot the adds before they be griped to him by the tanks and other melles(but that's pure padding ), and most brightest example will be Klaxxi, because most of the time ther eis another bug next to the kill target, so that basically increase your damage on the said target.

    Im not sure but i actually use Fire bomb on Malkorok because the adds die fast and when they die that's 2 explosions right next to the boss. Same with the adds on the Dark shaman encounter. Our tank deal with blobs in a manner that leave them next to the boss and we aoe like mad and i stoped blinking in to spam cone of cold and AE and just dot as many blobs i can. I must say its fun because all the time i watch explosions around the boss, because the adds die so fast. Still blinking in with cone and AE is more effective ofcourse (what can i say sometimes i like watching things blowing up hihi)
    so much wrong with this post. multidot the adds on malkorok r u kidding? living bomb them so the explosion does dmg to the boss??? wtf.....

    living bomb explosion is like not even half a tick from the living bomb dot. not even close to being worth wasting a gcd for.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMine View Post
    so much wrong with this post. multidot the adds on malkorok r u kidding? living bomb them so the explosion does dmg to the boss??? wtf.....

    living bomb explosion is like not even half a tick from the living bomb dot. not even close to being worth wasting a gcd for.
    Except all of the top parses on malk are dotting the adds, so clearly it is worth it. The few ticks plus the explosion on multiple targets and the chance at missiles is worth the global.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Except all of the top parses on malk are dotting the adds, so clearly it is worth it. The few ticks plus the explosion on multiple targets and the chance at missiles is worth the global.
    Of course you'll do more DPS by dotting the adds, but it'll lower your DPS on Malkorok.


    Can't post links. Remove the two spaces in the links below.
    http://warcraftlogs.com/r1ankings/5#...ge&spec=Arcane
    http://warcraftlogs.com/reports/hgcB...e=1&target=303
    http://warcraftlogs.com/reports/2cJA...e=6&target=205
    http://warcraftlogs.com/reports/PHb8...=317&source=55

    As you can see, none of the top3 mages on boss DPS dots the adds.
    Last edited by voltaa; 2014-04-02 at 09:02 PM.

  13. #13
    The Patient Deithy's Avatar
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    Well the name of the topic is "Does doting useless targets increase single target dps?" and we are discussing this.

    For some cases its arguable, for others depends on how do you feel and for third and fourth it really depends on their play style.
    As i said in most of the cases dotting useless targets during encounter is for just pure padding,but in some of the cases it can get you some yield to your main target and on others its totaly mandatory.
    Again - it all depends on the person's point of view. You feel its a dps loss to dot useless target - then don't do et! Simple as that. If you feel it will boost you damage - then do et! Also simple as that.
    Nor me nor anyone else who have posted here didn't said "You have to multidot no matter what or gtfo!!!"

    P.S. Just an advice - do not look at "top" mages on given encounter. It is so wrong in so many ways. I can give you some of the most common sense reasons why:
    1) You are not that person, you will never be, you can only try to reach his level.
    2) You do not have that gear (most likely)
    3) Most likely there was so much good RNG involved that try, that maybe even the same person would not be able to repeat that same result
    4) The less likely thing - maybe there is some sort of abuse of the fight to boost that persons dps so he can reach top 3
    And many more
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Except all of the top parses on malk are dotting the adds, so clearly it is worth it. The few ticks plus the explosion on multiple targets and the chance at missiles is worth the global.
    its pure padding....

    as a geared mage, 400k dps on malkorok is reasonable. do you really think putting a living bomb on an add that will die to cleave in a few seconds will give you 400k damage on malkorok??

    nope, its gonna give you about 50k on malkorok.
    the question was "does multidotting with Mage Bomb increase single target dps in Arcane specc?"
    not "how do mages with top parses pad the meters"
    Last edited by MisterMine; 2014-04-04 at 10:24 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMine View Post
    its pure padding....

    as a geared mage, 400k dps on malkorok is reasonable. do you really think putting a living bomb on an add that will die to cleave in a few seconds will give you 400k damage on malkorok??

    nope, its gonna give you about 50k on malkorok.
    the question was "does multidotting with Mage Bomb increase single target dps in Arcane specc?"
    not "how do mages with top parses pad the meters"
    I actually have #4 #8 now on the malk 25hc list :P And tbh, if you look at my parses the week after and before, my padded damage on that particular night is higher overall on the boss and adds.

    Arguing a point like this is just silly. In my opinion if you want to have a blanket rule whether it increases single target deeps, why not math it out?

    My non mathy feeling is that I'm sure on some fights it does add deeps if you get lucky with your fishing. Other times you will gain nothing and lose deeps.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMine View Post
    the question was "does multidotting with Mage Bomb increase single target dps in Arcane specc?"
    not "how do mages with top parses pad the meters"
    Ok then that's fairly easy to answer, if you have 4 charges, yes it's a single target increase. If you don't have 4 charges it isn't.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Ok then that's fairly easy to answer, if you have 4 charges, yes it's a single target increase. If you don't have 4 charges it isn't.
    It isn't a single target dps increase to dot something hoping for AM proccs. If it was you might as well refresh your dot on the target you're dpsing single target. Excluding when you snapshot or otherwise have buffs up, you'd never do that on a fight like juggernaut hence the logic that dotting a far away add would give you more single target damage is flawed.

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