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  1. #1
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Lightbulb A Tweet, A Thought - A Plan for the Devs

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...69971937722369

    Now that we're approaching the end of MoP. What class/classes do you think need a big overhaul in 6.0?
    Ghostcrawler: None. We will likely work to make the 3 hunter and rogue specs play a little more differently from each other.
    This concerns me a bit. I think as a community we're not doing a very good job bringing our concerns to the devs in a rational, clear-headed, emotion-free manner.

    I would like us to put together a good summary and assessment of each mage spec in a concise way and then I will find a way to get the right eyes to read it. In order to do this we need:

    • Less in-fighting among spec, let's acknowledge each spec's issues independently and list broad class issues in their own category.
    • Numbers when appropriate, not raidbots.
    • Volunteers (you guys) to reply to this thread with your take on things.
    • More volunteers to help sort through it all and make sure I don't miss anything in my list.
    • A positive attitude. Think of the solution, not the problem-- and don't compare one spec to another, or to any other class.

    So, to all those who spend countless hours calculating, pontificating, bloviating, elaborating, hyperbolizing, and analyzing, let's come together, whether our hands glow purple, red, or blue, and start to nail down the real concerns. I'll be updating this thread frequently with my own thoughts and the contributions of others.

    [Last updated July 27, 18:29]
    State of the Mage Class (as seen by the Mage Community) 7/21/2013

    Broad Class Concerns & Ideas:
    Problems
    • Same bomb used for all 3 specs diminishes spec variety.
    • Why does Living Bomb have a cap? Why doesn't NT? Could all bombs function if they had a target cap of 1, 2, 3, 4?
    • Frost bomb doesn't fit the tier and has another niche. DoT trinkets, which so far have been BiS, do not proc it.
    • Level 90 talents are providing negative reinforcement, all other problems aside. Devs are aware the community is largely displeased with these talents and they pose a lot of troubles in reward/punish game theory.
    • The allure of mage for years was a non-multidot caster. Bombs have transformed the class. If you don't like having a pet, there are two other specs. If you don't like multi-dotting, you're unable to opt out.
    • Something to do while moving is a rewarding feeling for doing mechanics properly, but it need not be crucial or optimal for DPS.
    • Glyph of Evocation is a necessity for survival.
    • AoE for all 3 specs has no clearly defined rotation and is overwhelming for new as well as awkward for experienced raiders. Gray area among cleave, multidot, and AoE.
    Potential Solutions
    • Bombs could have their secondary effect be tied to one's spec for thematic purposes. i.e. Have NT split off into arcane missiles, blizzard chunks, or tears of flame / Living Bomb can explode in an arcane explosion, blastwave, or a frost nova / Frost bomb can be changed to be Arcane bomb, Fire bomb, or Frost bomb
    • Frost bomb can detonate multiple times and count as a DoT at very large haste breakpoints and have its explosion count as a DoT, rather than haste reducing the cooldown.
    • Mana regeneration can be tied into each spec rather than at a talent-level and add more thematics to it.
    • Spec identity and diversity could come with specific resources. Icicles could be a resource for frost, mana for arcane, heat for fire.
    • Utility with flavor is desired. A temporal gemstone, works as a HoT to provide to the raid. Standard conjured food could act as a lesser-stat version of buff food, for farm content. Polymorph for a friendly target that protects them briefly from damage and heals them. Give 3 different versions of Arcane/Dalaran Brilliance, only 1 can be up at a time, to buff the raid with mastery, haste, or crit in addition to the spell power buff.
    • Water Elemental Cleansing Waters (Healing Rain) / Flamewave (Stormlash equivalent) / Arcane Dimension Door (Demonic Gateway)

    Arcane:
    Thoughts & Suggestions
    • Burn/Conserve model was popular in Cataclysm, but excludes Arcane Barrage if executed today.
    • A potential solution to mixing the models it could be a good idea to have weaving options that are situational to conserve mana or to move while maintaining charges. Missiles could be that spell instead of being proc-based (think Burning Crusade). Arcane Barrage could proc and consume charges, so it still has a use in a burn/conserve model.
    • Another idea could be to add a reverse mana adept to the current mastery. The lower your mana, the faster you cast. This would keep the number-crunchers busy and cause a delicate balance of stats and allow a high skill-cap while not leaving lower-skilled players from dropping the ball.
    • Movement is far too punishing rather than challenging. AE is the only way to refresh charges while moving.
    • Far too dependent on Rune of Power with IW and Invocation being unusable for mana returns. If IW is ever taken, it's only for the passive and the ability cannot be used.
    • RoP could be arcane-only and draw itself a la sniper training under the mage's feet when their mana is above 50%. Missiles can be cast while moving when under 50% mana, but it is far more rewarding when you stand still as the rune draws itself. (mana regen needs to be increased to compensate)
    • Evocation consumes stacks of charges, therefore cutting regen by half makes the talent unusable.
    • Too much is tied into the arcane school of magic, when locked this spec is nearly unusable.
    • A long damage ramp-up in PvP without self-heals requires babysitting by one's team.
    • In PvP, charges expire while CC'd.
    • Mana costs of utility spells are slightly too intensive for arcane's mastery penalty.

    Fire:
    Thoughts & Suggestions
    • Return of Blast Wave is desired, untie from Flamestrike (or turn Flamestrike into Improved Flamestrike/instant AoE)
    • Fix scaling so fire is playable at lower ilvls and not the required spec at higher ilvls. Crit scaling, tier 3/4 hotstreaks (Cata) is a beginning step to helping lower-end scaling.
    • Combustion is fun, but there's too much dependence on it. With just ignite feeding it, it's not being averaged out by other DoTs. RPPM gives high gear levels more control over getting higher and perfect combustions over lower gear levels.
    • Fire can have a new cooldown (3 min): For a duration, the longer you go without a crit, it increases your chance to crit. This will always be a useful DPS cooldown but assist lower gear levels.
    • Pyroblast is too high damage and can be scaled back.
    • Mastery relies on crit and haste, therefore everything depends on crit. If mastery can be reworked independently of crit, it can help a lot of the scaling issues and RNG spreads.
    • Critical Mass can be a flat number, in a 4-tiered hot streak system it will level out RNG.
    • When fire is weak, scorch isn't enough to prop it up. When scaled to a high ilvl, scorch is too good.
    • Some feel bombs could feel more like a fiery explosion, perhaps with a return of the old Glyph of Fireblast, but not tied to Fireblast


    Frost:
    Thoughts & Suggestions
    • Target switching is punishing to the spec. With frostburn gone, it should no longer be a PvP concern.
    • The new mastery adds more ramp-up in its own right which is sufficient.
    • Frost is a little too good at low item levels, and cannot benefit from additional stat ratings at a competitive rate. New mastery will likely help this. If the crit ceiling is raised back to 33% (old shatter), we have a place for the stat.
    • The spec feels too limited in PvE due to PvP concerns that may or may not be valid at this juncture. Icicles help this, but there's a stigma.
    • The water elemental doesn't do enough to feel warranted by many, though active use may be a strain. A return of the Water Jet idea may be fun, and/or giving it a defensive ability (possibly a Lei Shi protector feign) can add more flavor to it.
    • Water Elemental ability: Surge: Frees the Water Elemental of all movement impairing effects, returns it to your side in a surge of water and knocks/snares/interrupts (whichever is most balanced)
    • Glyph of Water Elemental should be baseline. It has a bizarre AI but might be tied in general pet-AI issues.
    • Increase frostbolt damage, potentially cast time. This could be done via glyph or reverted by a glyph.
    • Icy Veins glyph doesn't do much of anything at high gear levels and will generate smaller icicles.
    • Icy Veins can be re-evaluated as a cooldown, perhaps it can offer more damage rather than haste? Not necessary if frostbolt cast time is increased.
    • Now that Frostburn is gone, why can't we have Frostbite back? Improved cone of cold replacing the current glyph and the damage being baseline? Can blizzard consume FoF?

    In addition, please help me gather some thoughts and data by answering these questions:
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?

    3) Tier 15?

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?



    Wishlist Shout Board:
    1. Akraen/544 @ US-Stormrage: Remove the bomb tier entirely
    2. Methusula/537 @ US-Thunderlord: LEVEL 90 TALENTS!!!1! (change)
    3. Facetarian/522 @ US-Emerald Dream: loss of buffs gained while in alter time is just so obnoxious- I'd like a glyph to option out of that
    4. Kiriel/543 @ US-Stormreaver: Either remove the movement penalty or add it to the other dps classes. Get us all more in alignment with each other.
    5. Turkeyone/544 @ US-Lothar: Lvl 90 talents they just nerf fun
    6. Raves/539 @ US-Hellscream: Level 90 talents have got to go.
    7. Mistwynd/536 @ US-Lightbringer: the level 90 talents SUCK! They aren't fun, aren't compelling, and severely detract from gameplay. The entire tier should be ditched and completely replaced.
    8. Voltaa/548 @ US-Stormrage: Exponential scaling, in both directions, needs to go
    9. Winnrie/522 @ US-Thaurissan: I was actually fine with the first iteration of the L90 talents, but they have become too similar right now.
    10. Zilotu/543 @ US-Stormrage: Since Level 90 talents is an obvious one, I'd say scaling (fire too good, frost absolute garbage).
    11. Cycobi/543 @ EU-The Maelstrom: Bring back more spec-specific spells within schools
    12. Morimasa/522 @ US-Misha: 90 Talents since that seems like the easiest thing to hope for at this point.
    13. Mastamagee/537 @ US-Turalyon: I'd get rid of the new talent system and bring back a form of the old one
    14. Jtmzac/540 @ US-Stormrage: There's lots of smaller problems that contribute to the overall state of the class that all need to be resolved.
    15. Srig/532 @ US-Firetree: I cannot stand when certain specs are "not optimal" by a wide margin at ilvls. Why have specs if you can only play one??
    16. Stressball/529 @ US-Turalyon: Viability of the three specs, which really means scaling.
    17. Pete/551 @ EU-Anetheron: give Alter Time a trinket proc protection and/or get rid of RPPM trinkets
    18. Trolflcopter/549 @ US-Cho'gall: Arcane's lack of movement (as it gets doubly f****d by RoP AND no cast-on-the-move spells).
    19. Erraneous/515 @ US-Khaz'goroth: I would overhaul the last tiers talents.
    20. Pyrõstorm/536 @ US-Caelestrasz: Lvl 90 talents
    21. Lavok/538 @ EU-Xavius: Lvl90 talents, AT eating procs. sorry, 2 things
    22. Pyropanda/535 @ EU-Darksorrow: Fire-Combustion/Arcane-RoP/Frost-Scaling
    23. Abraxis/549 @ EU-Anetheron: make Rune of Power an Instantcast
    24. Thanje/546 @ EU-Ner'Zhul: Proc protection during Alter Time
    25. Sombrelûne/550 @ EU-Hyjal: Disparity between the specs.
    26. Ansrareth/529 @ US-Tichondrius: make the lvl 90 talents feel like something across all specs and not just what flavor of mana regen you want.
    27. Flell/527 @ US-Kil'Jaden: I would redesign the 90 talents.
    28. Frostedmages/534 @ US-Whisperwind: Remove how homogenized the specs feel from bombs.
    29. Israfael/536 @ US-Mazrigos: Return fire to pre-mop state with fixed + crit% modifiers and get rid of CM.
    30. Belzin/544 @ US-Sargeras: I think the 90 talents need to be redone. I think they are clunky and hardly feel "mage-like" to me.
    31. Vynkasmyn/515 @ EU-Dun Modr: Lack of "spec mechanics".
    32. Hanodar/540 @ US-Stormrage: Add an inverse effect to Mana Adept. Give me back my math!
    33. Intervir/542 @ US-Azralon: My main concern is the lv-90 tier talent. It adds no fun to the gameplay.
    34. Malon/535 @ EU-Wildhammer: Actually, I think the main issue I have with the class at present (pre-5.4) is our AoE rotation.
    35. Silvermage/532 @ US-Kel'Thuzad: A resource system unique to each spec, which would kill the 90 talents as a consequence because those are all about managing mana.
    36. Archet/516 @ US-Quel'thalas: Lvl 90 talents. I like to feel powerfull when I push the buttons, not penalized for not having some buff always on.
    37. Corianin/533 @ US-Kul Tiras: The level 90 talents
    38. Frostyspeed/542 @ EU-Terokkar: Make frost bomb viable / Arcane missiles while moving / combustion variation ridiculous
    39. Iaretall/544 @ EU-Khadgar: More interesting L90 talents
    40. Jamesmarcus/548 @ EU-Silvermoon: More interactive talents for a mage. Every 'tier', there's generally a clear winner.
    41. Mithrio/528 @ EU-Blutkessel (Paraphrased): Many things, but RNG ruins perfect play.
    42. Dawnstrike/489 @ US-Moon Guard: All of the mage talents.
    43. Dirkee/515 @ US-Saurfang: Mage level 75 and 90 talents.
    44. Hiroran/538 @ US-Cho'gall: Probably make the talents how they were at the start of the xpac, for at least the lvl 90 ones
    45. Juliuscaesar/521 @ US-Area52: If i could change one thing i would change our stupid level 90 talents. Stand here!! or wait let me stop dpsing and channel. So ridiculous.
    46. Truffnstuff/542 @ US-Kil Jaeden: Probably a fire redesign, but frankly I think major changes would do far more harm than good.
    47. Hauhét/548 @ US-Kazzak: Has to be the 90 talents, they're supposed to be fun but instead they're a chore.
    48. Prelimar/510 @ US-Nazgrel: I have tried all the level 90 talents, and while i don't find them as terrible as many say, i do feel they need rethinking, especially when so many fights are movement-based, and the top-tier mage talents require us to stand still to cast them.
    49. Alaseira/448 @ US-Sisters of Elune: LET ME FROSTBOLT IN PEACE! (well, in combat anyway)
    50. Middletroll/538 @ US-Arthas: Frost mastery, the current icicle idea is just extra damage effect, does not encourage engaging gameplay.
    51. Lfgismagical/501 @ US-Magtheridon: I hate the reliance on mage bombs
    52. Tebla/528 @ US-Cenarius: I would like to have the bombs be spec dependent and work for all trinkets.
    53. Cortivva/522 @ US-Uther: I would like to see the talents reworked so that they were more fun and not mandatory.
    54. Айсифреш/547 @ EU-Свежеватель душ: The only thing I wanna have it is deleting lvl90 talents from the game.
    55. Рина/540 @ EU-Азурегос: Level 90 talents if overall; Fire - RNG, Frost - scaling, Arcane - mobility if for the specs.
    56. Justspamsone/532 @ US-Dawnbringer: Our class ceases to function at 90 if we don't choose a talent from tier 5 and 6. Don't know of any other class with that kind of dependence.
    57. Danaos/530 @ EU-Tirion: bombs spells or comperable dots tied to specc, giving a chance for more flavor to each spec
    58. Niterage/529 @ EU-Runetotem: The specs need to be less minor stat oriented (i.e. crit for fire,haste for frost,mastery for arcane). So it's easier to swap specs on demand.
    59. Starlight/470 @ US-Moon Guard: I'd insist on giving three specs more diversity in the WAY THEY FUNCTION... Atm, they all feel the same
    60. Species/541 @ US-Sargeras: The level 90 talents need to be reworked, mainly Rune of Power.
    61. Shyzyhra/515 @ US-Draka: I wish they had a glyph or spell or something that made the pet optional by compensating for the lost dps if you don't have the pet summoned.
    62. Destru/539 @ EU-Stormreaver: I would love the specs to have appropriate abilities regarding their actual speliazations
    63. Nathyiel/537 @ EU-Sargeras: Armors; frost, mage & molten... But I really think they can bake the offensive bonus into each spec, and make them as talent with only defensive bonus. In this case, Frost armor need to change to be appealing.
    64. Hasufer/545 @ EU-Kazzak: ...a concrete matter, would be to remove/redesign or renew the lvl 90 talents
    65. Zatetic/527 @ US-Frostmourne: I'd like frost to scale better and not be hard against stat caps.
    66. Fyrae/493 @ US-Suramar: making the class' primary resource something other than RNG
    67. Silmandel/534 @ US-Stormrage: This ridiculous notion that the rest of the playerbase has about Mages being a no-skill, faceroll class that magically destroys them in PvP and PvE without effort.


    Statistics:
    Question #5:

    Yes, streamline spec play to preserve thematics: 3 souls
    No, diversity in playstyle trumps the color of my spells: 46 souls

    Question #6:

    Yes, use a scaling mechanic such as armors to give each spec a clear niche, and allow mages to switch specs depending on the mechanics of a fight without reforging/gearing: 32 souls
    No, allow me to stick to the spec I play throughout most/all content: 15 souls

    (more to come soon-- out of town on business so I'm slow to update!)

    My note to self section (ignore):
    Things I (or a helpful someone else) needs to still do:
    1) Total up the spec choices in questions 2, 3, and 4 with totals
    2) get the statistics for #s 5 and 6 from battlenet forums (MMO is updated to post 98)
    3) get the "top 3 wishes" from the wish shoutbox
    Last edited by Akraen; 2013-08-01 at 09:24 PM. Reason: Caught up to Post #125

  2. #2
    Well seeing as how GC said they want the specs of those classes to play differently maybe someone that actually uses twitter should bring this to his attention.

    Keep bomb up, spam filler spell, use procs.

    Which mage spec am I talking about? Exactly.

    Arcane ends up playing pretty differently in some situations because of RoP but all mage specs share an underlying structure the same as rogues and as such if its a problem with rogues it is a problem with mages also in this instance. They should probably expand upon mana, much like they did in cataclysm, for arcane. Fire or frost really needs to break from this type of gameplay because the only big difference lies within combustion, scorch and the color of your spells. Frost is the one that isn't really fleshed out completely as far as PvE goes in this situation and the Water Elemental could play a big role in making the spec different. Right now it's a walking dot that doesn't really add anything besides cheesy fof procs on certain bosses. Lots of room for improvement. I would've liked to see the icicles and new frost mastery work out a little bit more like destro warlocks and embers did. I feel like that would make the spec significantly different from fire and arcane.
    Last edited by Turkey One; 2013-07-21 at 10:33 PM. Reason: typo and things

  3. #3
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    I Have had twitter for a long time but never sent out a tweet...till this. GC and co need to know what's up.

  4. #4
    Well obviously he's too busy with his head up Garrosh's ass to know what we need done. Looks like I'm rolling Warlock come 6.0

  5. #5
    Just off the top of my head I'd like to see:

    Overall: Less homogenisation between the specs. More interesting level 90 talents than "perform action and get static damage boost"

    Fire
    - Living Bomb to get its EXPLODE back
    - Blast Wave to return as a standalone spell
    - Unlimited dot cleave!!!! (one can dream)
    - Fix Scaling rollercoaster

    Arcane
    - Cata Burn / Conserve model returned in some capacity
    - Overhaul mastery and mana connections to spec
    - Something to movement (a spell that can be cast on the move!)

    Frost
    - Fix scaling caps
    - Untie limitations on the spec by separating PvE & PvP
    - Bring back damaging Deep Freeze
    - Give Water Elemental meaning or get rid of it

    Just some quickies off the top of my head. There are stacks more......

  6. #6
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    Well obviously he's too busy with his head up Garrosh's ass to know what we need done. Looks like I'm rolling Warlock come 6.0
    He'll be dead by then, so how could he do that?


    Sarcasm aside until tomorrow it would be wise for us Mages to tweet him. Yeah people are having issues with using it but it's better than doing nothing and complaining from afar(Not that anyone is doing this).

    I'd like to see is Arcane Explosion for Arcane gives a knockback like that one boss in TK.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  7. #7
    None. We will likely work to make the 3 hunter and rogue specs play a little more differently from each other.
    How vague. Does he consider the MOP Warlock update a big overhaul, or just making them "play a little more differently"

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    You know, I honestly just find the class boring. It's stale and the specs have become far to similar. I would honestly say the hunter specs all play a lot more differently than Mage ones, and at the very least they actually have some distinction (MM=Hunter Physical, BM = Pet and Surv = Dots and traps). Our specs don't really have niches, the closest thing to a unique spec is arcane, and even then Arcane gets changed every couple of patches anyway. Think it goes without saying the 90 talents need to go. A unique resource type similar to how warlocks got changed would be nice, I always thought the whole catching on fire thing would make more sense for Mages but oh well. Mages and Rogue really just need a whole rework, not more bandaid solutions. The Devs need to focus less on how people's DPS is or how well their class is represented and start focusing on how Fun is it to actually play.

    That being said, Fire can be really fun at times, but it's like a BG, when you're doing really good and you get a lot of procs it's really fun...missing out on all your procs to make that perfect combustion because pyro just doesn't want to crit makes me want to cry sometimes...
    Last edited by Rickmagnus; 2013-07-22 at 03:21 AM.
    "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Issac Asimov

  9. #9
    I'm not sure what you expect people to write here, but I'll drop a few words about Arcane. The spec feels too restrictive and incomplete. It also doesn't have much going for it to offset the restrictions. I don't want to talk about numbers, dps, scaling, etc - it all can be sorted out by tweaking numbers and it's possible that Arcane will be good in 5.4 damage-wise. What bothers me is how it functions.

    Currently the niche of Arcane is Patchwerk fights and multidotting. First is nearly extinct and second is arguably a completely non-mage thing to do. Definitely not an Arcane playstyle if the past is of any indication. Multi-target Arcane Barrage is awkward to use and Mastery makes Rune of Power a better choice which further exacerbates mobility issues. Mobility is like a secondary resource for Arcane. I can't understand how can Blizzard keep both Warlocks' KJC playstyle (current or 5.4) and Arcane's RoP at the same time! Warlocks are free to run around and Arcane Mages are afraid to move even a little.

    Blizzard seems to be concerned with how the classes/specs feel more than whether they do 5-10% more or less damage. Well, currently Arcane feels like a liability. If you pick Arcane you basically vow not to move at all costs and thoroughly plan all the necessary movement you will have to make due to mechanics. That feels awful. I'm sure there must be people who enjoy it, there always are. But for some even a 20-button rotation and 2 secondary resources would be a blessing, just so they can feel themselves special.

    And I haven't even started talking about PVP. Arcane is so bad in PVP. It was stripped of all its defensive spells and mechanics. All you have is a not very useful Slow and Deep Freeze - a cooldown that requires another cooldown to be successfully cast and not be dispelled or removed by damage. Add non-existent mobility and high ramp-up time and you've got yourself a spec that requires baby-sitting by a pocket healer and a couple of peelers. It's mind-boggling how, say, Destruction has access to potent self-heals, auto-shielding by damage-dealing, shields, array of CC, infinite mobility and good timed burst, while Arcane only has limitations and Slow. It has limited mobility, limited burst windows if they somehow manage to ramp up charges (they expire quickly), limited CC (compared to Fire and Frost) and their damage is limited by long ramp up, which requires to be done just before the burst, unlike embers, shadow orbs or just cooldowns for other specs/classes. Blizzard has no intentions to make every spec in the game top-tier PVP-balanced, but they said multiple times that all specs should be viable to some extent. Well, not even close with Arcane. A whole RBG team baby-sitting you is not a good niche for any spec.

    What perplexes me is that no clear answer had been given regarding why Arcane Missiles can't become castable on the move! There was a PVE set bonus on PTR (in Cata I believe or maybe end of WotLK) doing just that, but it was scrapped for some reason.

  10. #10
    I dont have much to offer right now but a concern of mine is the lvl90 talents.
    I could say quite a bit about them but at the end of the day the biggest aspect of the lvl90 talents is how they have evolved over MoP.
    Trying to fit each spec into 3 different resource management talents while functioning differently has been too great of a task for the developers.
    In a sense they have created 9 different specs for the one class each with a goal at being balanced between each other (within reason) while remaining pve and pvp viable.
    On paper this may have been possible, but in practice it was far from possible.

    Going forward in 6.0 Each spec needs a single resource management system. That could be a mana+arcane charges system for Arcane, or just mana for fire/frost like the old days.
    To expand on that idea I feel like every spec needs an independent management system, that doesnt feel like a punishment, to give flavour to each individual spec rather than just Red/Blue/Purple bolts.

    In short, give each spec its own system that is unique between Mage specs to better balance the spec and create diversity.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by vawugz View Post
    How vague. Does he consider the MOP Warlock update a big overhaul, or just making them "play a little more differently"
    They consider it an overhaul. All three specs play VERY differently than they did in cata with new spells for all specs (and the importance of those spells shifted if they already existed), spells taken out and major resource changes for 2 of the 3 specs. Warlocks were for sure an overhaul.

  12. #12
    I thought that tweet summed it up nicely. Nobody really needs a big redesign like Warlocks had. Shamans could probably use the biggest overhaul but even then, not that much.

    Rogues and Hunters could use more differentiation, absolutely. It's not breaking the classes at the moment but they do feel too samey.

    The Mage kit is fine the way it is. There are things I do and don't like about the current state of Mages but redesign? No.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vawugz View Post
    How vague. Does he consider the MOP Warlock update a big overhaul, or just making them "play a little more differently"
    I think the point of his post was exactly that the Warlock overhaul isn't necessary for any current classes.

    Obviously this is not to say classes don't need changes and tweaks here and there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I thought that tweet summed it up nicely. Nobody really needs a big redesign like Warlocks had. Shamans could probably use the biggest overhaul but even then, not that much.

    Rogues and Hunters could use more differentiation, absolutely. It's not breaking the classes at the moment but they do feel too samey.

    The Mage kit is fine the way it is. There are things I do and don't like about the current state of Mages but redesign? No.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think the point of his post was exactly that the Warlock overhaul isn't necessary for any current classes.

    Obviously this is not to say classes don't need changes and tweaks here and there.
    No one in their right mind is asking for a complete overhaul like the warlocks got, we just would like to get the same attention that rogues and hunters will get next expansion. It's kind of a slap in the face to exclude mages from that list, seeing as we'll be the only pure class that won't get a good amount of attention, according to that tweet.

    Although I guess I could be over-reacting right now, we aren't even close to beta yet but still, I feel mages are getting ignored with regards to 6.0 "overhaul/changes" tweets.

  14. #14
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    No one in their right mind is asking for a complete overhaul like the warlocks got, we just would like to get the same attention that rogues and hunters will get next expansion. It's kind of a slap in the face to exclude mages from that list, seeing as we'll be the only pure class that won't get a good amount of attention, according to that tweet.

    Although I guess I could be over-reacting right now, we aren't even close to beta yet but still, I feel mages are getting ignored with regards to 6.0 "overhaul/changes" tweets.
    I can think of one person who wants a complete overhaul. I think they need maybe a medium overhaul. I say medium because it's not so horrible then it's garbage piled on poop and being burped on constantly.
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  15. #15
    Mage level 90 talents basically kettle you in to a way of playing. Most classes have some form of choice in their level 90 talents. You either stand and cast for Invocation, Stand and cast for RoP and remain grounded, or hope you take damage for Incanter's Ward.

    That's my biggest problem with the class. That and the lack of different CD for fire. Flame Orb would make a good CD here, interactable with one of our other spells perhaps.

  16. #16
    Mages don't need a BIG overhaul...We aren't warlocks. We have fundamental class issues that need to be fixed, and they are trying with fire, they'll fix arcane hopefully when they revamp the 90 talents, and frost they're working on...So I don't think we need a MAJOR overhaul like warlocks had.

  17. #17
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    The fixes you guys are suggesting aren't overhaul material anyway, they're smaller scale.

    Also, wasn't the point of Swizzle's crazy mage discussiorama to talk about 6.0 before anything starts happening on the PTR? I might just send all of these posts there later, until then continue.

  18. #18
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    Having played all 3 specs this expansion, i'll give my 2 cents:
    (Disclaimer: i don't pvp)

    Broad Class Concerns:
    PvE
    - A revamp of our level 90 talents, The shield idea is a good one, adds a niche to a spellpower buff. But the other two, they need to change. Invocation needs a penalty compared to RoP, since you can move on it, however i don't think that mana regen should be it. Instead of 15%, RoP should give you 20%. Invo stays at 15%, but doesn't affect Mana regen.
    - The whole bomb thing, affecting each class is all fine and dandy, but in the end it does homogenize the specs, some separation would be good.

    Arcane:
    PvE
    - Needs movement. There are many ideas for this, most of them good, and its not that hard to think about them. I''ve shown one in the broad class changes, but there are many more. But the spec will die if they don't allow arcane to move around.
    - As far as a spell rotation is concerned, i can't really think of many changes, its a fun spec to play.


    Fire:
    PvE
    - Untie combustion from ignite, at least partially. My idea is, make it so that you only get 25% of your current ignite, but the spell scales with spellpower. It would allow fire mages to, if they managed to not crit (and therefor get a good combustion) still avoid a low dps situation. Since spellpower is a much more stable element than ignite, and it scales with gear, you'ld be able to get consistent damage with combustion.
    - I really don't like the whole bomb applying +damage debuff, but that's just me.
    - Find a way to fix low crit mages playing fire. It'ld be tough, but it can be done.

    Frost:
    PvE
    - Fix haste scaling. Increase frostbolt damage and cast time, even with a glyph. Its a simple fix, really.
    - I'm not gonna say remove the FB debuff, but make it so that it doesn't increase damage.
    - I don't mind the shatter crit cap, its a mechanic that makes us different from other classes.

  19. #19
    I like what Akraen is proposing here, bringing all of our concerns into a concise, visible form, not infested with specc-infighting. This is something that the mage community, which has been complacent (and spoiled^^) for a long time, has failed to do. The issues with this are quite big though. For one thing, we're likely too late in the current PTR cycle to see any massive changes implemented for now, but so early that many concerns raised here could likely become obsolete by the time the patch hits. The other problem (besides the obvious issues of how to communicate with Blizz) is finding a common voice that can both adress class issues and acknowledge the way they tie in with overall game design.

    An example: I enjoy standing still and casting, and being rewarded for it. Not everyone playing the mage class might feel the same about that. Additionally, it might not work within the boundaries of the current game, which is something we cannot influence.


    That being said, the most important issue for me is this:

    Right now, standing still and casting is considered filler, and is highly unrewarding. This is most true for Fire and Frost, but partially so for Arcane. This is directly contrary to the basic idea of the mage class, which has always been stationary (compared to Hunters and, more recently, Warlocks), but had that offset by a toolkit of awesome survival- and movement tools (Ice Block and Blink mostly). If anything, we need to get that feeling back. Make Frostbolt and Fireball meaningful spells, increase their casttime maybe, and make it so mages can reasonably plan ahead to use them effectively.

    This, if nothing else, is what bothers me most. It obviously ties in with Level 90 talents (RoP mostly) and other considerations, but this is the most important issue.

  20. #20
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vawugz View Post
    How vague. Does he consider the MOP Warlock update a big overhaul, or just making them "play a little more differently"
    That is rather obvious, because at Blizzcon before Mists of Pandaria they said they were going to be doing some major reworking of the Warlock Class and Mechanics. What I see happening is just widening of the differences between the specs.

    All hunters are effectively the same rifle / bow / crossbow using people who just throw in a different spell or two. Beastmasters I feel should rely far more on their Pets, as an example.

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