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  1. #21
    Broad Class Concerns:
    PvE

    - Mages are too homogenized currently - maintain lv90s, cast bomb, filler, unleash procs while burning cds,
    - Lv90 talents provide more restrictions than anything, don't bring much to the class and are generally unfun to use,
    - Lv75 talents feel like a third leg - they are mandatory to all specs, but aren't tied in with the specs and aren't different enough from each other,
    - Lack of group/raid utility - others bring healing, battle res, knockbacks, unique throughput/defensive cooldowns, warlock portals, but mages can only save 20 gold on food for others,
    - Glyph of Evocation should've been made baseline ages ago - almost everyone uses it.

    PvP
    - All specs became reliant on Deep Freeze burst, while Arcane can't utilize it as efficiently,
    - Blastwave w/knockback to Mana Shield knockback to no knockback isn't fun,
    - Lack of group utility, only peeling with CC,
    - Glyph of Evocation should've been made baseline ages ago - almost everyone uses it.

    Arcane:
    PvE

    - Non-existent mobility that makes the spec devoid of fun, time for AM on the move at least?
    - Lack of use for Arcane Barrage apart from ABarr AOE and losing stacks, it could be a go to spell while moving if it didn't trigger a cd, at least when cast with no charges,
    - Mastery forces multidotting, which isn't really a mage thing,
    - Mastery feels counterintuitive - impossible to have 100% damage output,
    - Invocation shouldn't cut mana regen by half, Evocation consuming stacks is bad enough,
    - RoP is too restrictive,
    - Awkward AOE - multidot, stand in melee or specifically time rotation for cleave.

    PvP
    - Has literally nothing going for it compared to other mage specs - only Slow, which is not enough
    - Has to rely on Frostjaw to use Deep Freeze,
    - No mobile damage and heavily punished by movement and interruption/CC as charges expire - thus completely shut down and useless if focused,
    - Too fragile, could benefit from passive mana shielding - reducing incoming damage by %, depending on % of mana left

    Fire:
    PvE

    - Too much reliance on cooldown lineup for Combustion set up,
    - Too RNG dependent,
    - Mastery is strictly tertiary as it directly depends on crit and haste, thus everything depends on crit, which makes RNG affect overall damage by a great margin,
    - Pyromaniac restricts target-switching, makes Frost Bomb an inferior choice and generally sucks,
    - Negligible AOE despite having a proper AOE rotation available,
    - Glyph of Infernal Blast is annoying to constantly swap, because it's very situational and not satisfying,
    - Combustion glyph is mandatory.
    - PoM is above the competition.

    PvP
    - Too affected by dispels - needs some protection
    - Depends too heavily on Deep Freeze burst,
    - Combustion periodic damage is completely useless due to multiple resilience applications and dispels
    - No Blastwave, no knockback,
    - No good Fire glyphs,
    - Has to rely on Frostjaw to use Deep Freeze.

    Frost:
    PvE

    - Water Elemental is useless, boring and annoying,
    - Haste cap restricts spec scaling,
    - Icy Veins glyph is mandatory,
    - Frostbolt stacking debuff restricts target switching and generally sucks,
    - Glyph of Water Elemental should be baseline.

    PvP
    - Water Elemental is useless, boring and annoying,
    - Glyph of Water Elemental should be baseline,
    - New mastery looks to be too PVE-oriented, which questions Frost PVP viability,
    - Frostbolt is too weak.

  2. #22
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Good stuff so far - and yeah Swizzle not meaning to undermine your thread, but the goal is less discussion and more presentation.

    I'll be organizing these thoughts and adding more later today.

  3. #23
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    This likely falls into the category of "overhaul", but if Blizzard ever really wants to seriously fix fire mage scaling, the idea of a crit opening up your powerful spell(s) needs to go. If they want to keep it, figure out a way for it to be very high (like, 75%) at the start of an expansion, and then essentially never move. To make crit valuable allow crit rating to increase crit damage instead for fire, and simply balance the % increase per point to prevent it from scaling too well.

    I think everyone else has already mentioned the frost and arcane issues, but fire is going to always be a problem as long as our most powerful spell (PB) becomes more powerful and is used more often as we gain crit.

  4. #24
    PvE only

    Broad - level 90 talents need to go, there is zero fun in those talents, just boring maintenance. We should bring a raid cool down, personally every time I see that DK magic shield that looks like the Dalaran dome I think "why the hell is that not a mage spell?".

    Most IMPORTANTLY eliminate us from being capable of DoT casting, I love the way Fire puts up DoT's via your direct cast, I LOATHE the way NT and LB (to a lesser extent) encourage DoT casting. I rolled a Mage after trying Warlock and Shadow Priest because I do not enjoy DoT play style. I believe that is the biggest mistake Blizzard has made in 5.x with mages, with 90 talents nipping its heels.

    Arcane - biggest issue with this spec is locking you to the floor, just doesn't work well in todays raid environment

    Fire - biggest issue is the horrid way crit scales, leaving the top geared mages destroying class balance while the majority get "kicked in the nads" because of those few thousand mages. If the RNG of crit makes the spec fluid at 35% crit then a new 90 mage needs to start at that basis with crit and have that value scale down as their gear provides said crit. Once your gear hits 35% crit, you should gain nothing from CM. This needs to be fixed and has been with us at least since Cata, maybe prior to that.

    Frost - complete opposite of fire, lack of scaling. Now they may get this addressed with new mastery, maybe not. I believe Pet should go, its just a damn annoyance. Better scaling, should allow it to compete with fire/arcane.

    edit - typo

  5. #25
    Broad Class Concerns:
    PvE
    - Mages are too homogenized currently - maintain lv90s, cast bomb, filler, unleash procs while burning cds,
    - Lv90 talents provide more restrictions than anything, don't bring much to the class and are generally unfun to use,
    - Lv75 talents feel like a third leg - they are mandatory to all specs, but aren't tied in with the specs and aren't different enough from each other,
    - Lack of group/raid utility - others bring healing, battle res, knockbacks, unique throughput/defensive cooldowns, warlock portals, but mages can only save 20 gold on food for others,
    - Glyph of Evocation should've been made baseline ages ago - almost everyone uses it.

    PvP
    - All specs became reliant on Deep Freeze burst, while Arcane can't utilize it as efficiently,
    - Blastwave w/knockback to Mana Shield knockback to no knockback isn't fun,
    - Lack of group utility, only peeling with CC,
    - Glyph of Evocation should've been made baseline ages ago - almost everyone uses it.

    Arcane:
    PvE
    - Non-existent mobility that makes the spec devoid of fun, time for AM on the move at least?
    - Lack of use for Arcane Barrage apart from ABarr AOE and losing stacks, it could be a go to spell while moving if it didn't trigger a cd, at least when cast with no charges,
    - Mastery forces multidotting, which isn't really a mage thing,
    - Mastery feels counterintuitive - impossible to have 100% damage output,
    - Invocation shouldn't cut mana regen by half, Evocation consuming stacks is bad enough,
    - RoP is too restrictive,
    - Awkward AOE - multidot, stand in melee or specifically time rotation for cleave.

    PvP
    - Has literally nothing going for it compared to other mage specs - only Slow, which is not enough
    - Has to rely on Frostjaw to use Deep Freeze,
    - No mobile damage and heavily punished by movement and interruption/CC as charges expire - thus completely shut down and useless if focused,
    - Too fragile, could benefit from passive mana shielding - reducing incoming damage by %, depending on % of mana left

    Fire:
    PvE
    - Too much reliance on cooldown lineup for Combustion set up,
    - Too RNG dependent,
    - Mastery is strictly tertiary as it directly depends on crit and haste, thus everything depends on crit, which makes RNG affect overall damage by a great margin,
    - Pyromaniac restricts target-switching, makes Frost Bomb an inferior choice and generally sucks,
    - Negligible AOE despite having a proper AOE rotation available,
    - Glyph of Infernal Blast is annoying to constantly swap, because it's very situational and not satisfying,
    - Combustion glyph is mandatory.
    - PoM is above the competition.

    PvP
    - Too affected by dispels - needs some protection
    - Depends too heavily on Deep Freeze burst,
    - Combustion periodic damage is completely useless due to multiple resilience applications and dispels
    - No Blastwave, no knockback,
    - No good Fire glyphs,
    - Has to rely on Frostjaw to use Deep Freeze.

    Frost:
    PvE
    - Water Elemental is useless, boring and annoying,
    - Haste cap restricts spec scaling,
    - Icy Veins glyph is mandatory,
    - Frostbolt stacking debuff restricts target switching and generally sucks,
    - Glyph of Water Elemental should be baseline.

    PvP
    - Water Elemental is useless, boring and annoying,
    - Glyph of Water Elemental should be baseline,
    - New mastery looks to be too PVE-oriented, which questions Frost PVP viability,
    - Frostbolt is too weak.
    Sums ups my thoughts completely, great post Nightfall

  6. #26
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    In wholly unsurprising news, GC is dismissing Mage concerns again along with MVP you-know-who.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans serenka's Avatar
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    i think mage is in need of an overhaul, but not as much as hunters and rogues need one. there is still some variation between mage specs, but not enough for my liking
    i mostly want to see the 90 talents totally reworked, they are all terrible and annoying to take.
    dragonmaw - EU

  8. #28
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'd like to ask a few questions to help contribute to the pooling of thoughts. Please reply (or re-reply if you already have), with some info.


    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?

    3) Tier 15?

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?

  9. #29
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    I think we have a pretty good grasp of the problems with the Mage class at this point. If there are any other glaring issues that haven't been expressed, by all means, but we should probably shift focus away from the problem and begin working on some potential solutions. It would probably be a good idea to start off with wider concepts and focus down from there.

    For example:

    Problem- Arcane feels too restrictive in bot PvP and PvE. Restricted movement via RoP, restricted damage via Mana Adept, restricted rotation(tied to Mana Adept), restricted defensive and control capabilities, restricted almost exclusively to 1 school for damage, utility, and defense.

    Solution- Eliminate current level 90 talents, replace with talents that add to our tool kit and feel like a reward. Either scrap Mastery altogether, or completely redesign it to allow more freedom. Alter/add abilities to function in ways that encourage synergy and depth, while rewarding good decisions. Either make rotation dynamic, or allow some freedom in how to execute it. give Arcane some defensive capability that is protected from school lock out.

    This is just off the top of my head, but these ideas can be refined and honed down to very concise points that give some idea what concerns we have, and how we would like to see our class evolve moving forward.

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveBrule View Post
    In wholly unsurprising news, GC is dismissing Mage concerns again along with MVP you-know-who.
    Show me. /10 char -_-
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'd like to ask a few questions to help contribute to the pooling of thoughts. Please reply (or re-reply if you already have), with some info.


    1) What's your current ilvl?

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?

    3) Tier 15?

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    1) What's your current ilvl?
    Current ilvl:537

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    have competed fights as every spec in t14.

    3) Tier 15?
    Have completed fights as every spec in t15 as well

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    I gravitate more toward Fire from a thematic standpoint, but if numbers were equal, I would likely play all three to keep things fresh. I'm not as much of a "specist" as some Mages are.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    I don't think that would be an acceptable solution. The specs need to FEEL different as well as look different. As a temporary solution? Depends on how temporary and what the plan was.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling? This might be acceptable if they somehow managed to make it work that way. I prefer the three specs all have enough tools to be able to perform in any raid situation, but if that means homogenization to the detriment of flavor, I'd rather just respec.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    LEVEL 90 TALENTS!!!1!
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-07-22 at 08:40 PM.

  12. #32
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    To the Mod earlier. There are huge sweeping changes going on for 5.4, there's no reason why can't be included in that and in turn present some concrete and GOOD feedback.

    In addition, please help me gather some thoughts and data by answering these questions:
    1) Kiriel, Stormreaver, 543

    2) Frost/Arcane

    3) Frost/Fire

    4) Frost. I enjoy the dynamic play. I also enjoy how it feels "frosty", which is a small part of the reason I'm in support of Icicles.
    In classic & BC I enjoyed arcane.

    5) I'm less concerned about the classes feeling different as far as frost/fire/arcane, and more concerned about the rng nature (and scaling), the punishment of antimovement of arcane, and the (current state of) stat cap for frost. But I'm all for exploring it.

    6) I'd like to be able to switch specs based on the need of the fight similar to some other classes. I'm open to ideas, but feel that mages need to be fun/reliable to play first.

    7) Either remove the movement penalty or add it to the other dps classes. Get us all more in alignment with each other.
    Last edited by Kiry; 2013-07-22 at 09:46 PM.
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  13. #33

  14. #34
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    Fair enough, tired from travel stuff. Hmmmm, one thing to change.....

    I've edited my response.

    Btw - hats off to you. Hope it makes an impact, we sorely need it.
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  15. #35
    outside of 90 talents i dont see any changes needed, returning any old abiltities or adding new ones would just be a bonus

  16. #36
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl? Turkeyone, Lothar(US), 544

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in? All of them

    3) Tier 15? All of them

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play? Arcane or frost most of the time because I've spent the vast majority of my raiding life as fire

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution? No and no

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling? Sure assuming all gear did work for any spec I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd probably want tri spec though before I went broke swapping.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be? Lvl 90 talents they just nerf fun. Even more apparent now that I'm leveling a second mage.

  17. #37
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    This thread needs to be stickied.

  18. #38
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?

    Raves, Hellscream - US, 539 ilvl ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raves/advanced )

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?

    In Tier 14, I completed all fights on at least normal in all specs: http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/hellscream/raves/ . Any heroic fights (we only finished 4), I completed also in all 3 specs at least once with the exception of Garajal which I believe were Arcane only.

    3) Tier 15?

    In Tier 15, I completed all fights on normal in fire and frost and all heroics completed thus far in fire and frost as well.

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?

    I love all three specs. If fire were not so punishingly dissapointing with RNG, I'd day fire. If I didn't have to haul around an elemental, I'd say Frost. If I didn't feel like my feet were glued to the floor, I'd say Arcane. Overall though, I rolled my mage back in the day because I loved fire spec.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?

    No, I appreciate each spec as a toolset. As long as the usefulness of any one toolset isn't completely smashed by mechanics, then they can be more distinct. I am fine with different specs being optimal for different situations, but I don't want to be forced to change because one spec is so completely handicapped by mechanics of a fight.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?

    Yes, as long as I could do so between a pair of specs. I don't want to have to jump between 3 specs. I also would appreciate making the swap a bit easier, but I also understand that moving between toolsets requires a price be paid, and for now I'm fine with that, as long as it is only between 2 toolsets.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?

    Level 90 talents have got to go.

  19. #39
    Hello, my name is voltaa and I am an alco...I mean mage

    1) What's your current ilvl? 548

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in? All specs on two mages

    3) Tier 15? Fire/Arcane

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play? Arcane

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution? No, I think spec diversity is important regardless of how it will inevitably affect balance, sometimes a spec will just be a clear winner based on the mechanics and the tuning, I think that is ok as long as no spec is left to die.

    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling? I like this idea, I enjoy seeing the instance from multiple perspectives but the vast differences in gear between my two choice specs make it so this isn't a viable option.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be? Exponential scaling, in both directions, needs to go, frost falls exponentially behind as gear is acquired and fire scales exponentially up, if the scaling of both of those specs could work more like arcane scaling (which is for the most part linear until very high gear) then I think we could have a least a little more choice throughout the entirety of expansions, rather than just at key points, yes there will always be a top spec, but the way things are now where fire is god mode, arc is beastly and frost is a soggy noodle, just can't work long term. I'm not really looking for a major warlock-esque overhaul of the class, I like the feel of mages currently, I just want my class to be less of a rollercoaster.

  20. #40
    1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
    Winnrie, US, Thaurissan, 522 (probably the lowest you'd find in these forums )

    2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
    Frost

    3) Tier 15?
    Frost. I haven't done most of the normals this expansion as I'm cutting back a bit, so I mostly go for LFR anyway.

    4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
    I change specs every expansion just to keep things fresh; for MOP it's Frost.

    5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
    Not really. One of the reason I change specs each expansion it's so how i can change how I play my mage every now and then. If every spec played the same, I wouldn't be able to do that. (it might not be obvious, but I DO feel each mage spec plays and feels differently right now, IMHO).


    6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
    Again, I'm not on the edge of progression fights, so as long as each spec were within 5-10% of each other, I'm good. I really would not want all 3 specs to scale similarly.
    ETA: By this, I meant that I wouldn't want all 3 specs to scale the same with crit, or haste or mastery. I actually like that fire scales with crit; Frost, haste; Arcane, Mastery. They just need to make sure that capping doesn't break the scaling.

    7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
    I was actually fine with the first iteration of the L90 talents, but they have become too similar right now. I don't need a complete overhaul like some asked, but I would liked to have it worked so that there is a bigger difference between the 3.
    Last edited by nickseng; 2013-07-23 at 01:21 AM.

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