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  1. #1
    Warchief Protoman's Avatar
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    Why is blizzard so stubborn about resto shaman spread heals?

    From the latest class feedback I am just really annoyed with how stubborn blizz is in responding to requests about improving resto spread healing capabilities, like adding or expanding on our current heals....instead they say they want to focus on making shaman the best spread heals at the cost of poor spread healing. This seems real stupid to me, what's wrong with making them "like everyone else"......shouldn't all healers have basic tools that do all jobs well, just like how all healers have a dispel now, or all dps have an interrupt and snare. Pally heals used to be tank heals and almost no aoe heals, but blizz made changes to fix that and now they are much more well rounded...shouldn't that be the goal for all healers? Anyone else agree they are making a poor design decision?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    best spread heals at the cost of poor spread healing.
    lol wut?

    OT, I agree with them a little, in a sense that they want us to be a little different. I do not want to be paladin 2.0 I want to be a Shaman 1.0
    What I thing they should have done few years ago when they gave us new healing style (more mana management, slow big heal, small slow efficient heal, quick big expensive heal) is they should have made us cast chain heal as our go-to heal, instead of healing wave. This would have made us really different. I cast this spell from time to time and cry a little inside, that such a beauty is so rarely used.
    Oh and... why the frog Chain lightning casting animation below our feet looks just like paladin mounting up?

  3. #3
    Almost all the healers are homogeneized for their basic healing toolkit. But the usage is different for every class. Not going to talk about cooldowns or any other toolkit but the ones that are more or less the same for each class. 3 heals, 1 smart heal, 1 hot, 1 or 2 aoe heals.

    Priests got Greater heal, heal and Flash Heal ( penance channeling on the move glyphed ) --> Prayer of Healing and/or Circle of Healing --> prayer of mending --> renew
    Paladin got Divine Light, Holy Light and Flash of Light --> LoD and Holy Radiance --> < no smart heal > --> Eternal Flame and Holy Shock
    Druids got Healing Touch, Nourish and Regrowth --> WildGrowth --> <no smart heal > --> Rejuvenation and Lifebloom
    Shamans got Greater Healing Wave, Healing Wave, Healing Surge --> Healing Rain --> Chain Heal --> Riptide

    The only healing class that doesn't follow these pattern is monk with channeling, all the smart heals and basically no nuke heal but surging mist/enveloping mist


    I think basically the problem with healing in MoP is absorbs going out of hand ... that is why Discipline and Paladins are so powerful now, just because the scaling of absorbs is insane ... Sometimes hps means nothing cos there is nothing actually to heal with the amount of absorbs everyone provides, that makes druids, holy priests and shamans the less powerful ofc.

    So basically blizzard needs to make every class different or give a style of healing to each of them. Spread healing is an issue to Paladins and Shamans problem is that Paladins got the huge advantage that absorbs give to them ( and that is gonna be nerfed ).

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    Tbh this has been going on since like, Ulduar, so I've given up on hoping they will do anything significant about it. Make the best out of the tools we have, I guess.
    When in a hole, keep digging!

  5. #5
    Blademaster Trysich's Avatar
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    I think all we can do is hope. But like been pointed out already Blizzard wants to be healers who shine when it comes to Aoe stacked up healing. Which we can do quite fine!

    The sad part is that here in ToT stacking aint the same as it was in T13. Back in T13 every fight required stacking up where we could shine. Also our mastery is shit compared to what other healers gain.

    As Eliot mentioned, make the best out of it.
    I happily sit out on spread-out progress fights, due to my healing buddies (Disc/MW) can do a mutch better job.
    And I'll pwn them on stack healing fights.

    All we can do I guess...

  6. #6
    If there were actually any stack fights in SoO then it would be cool~

  7. #7
    Upcoming changes for 5.4 have Chain Heal not losing potency on each jump, the Glyph for it that increases the range of the jump has the added cooldown at 2 seconds down from 4 seconds, and with Healing Tide Totem becoming baseline, we get a new talent that increases the potency of Healing Stream Totem by more than double, which is a smart spread heal. Also, Healing Rain is getting an increase to the area it covers.

    To me, it looks like they're responding pretty well to spread healing concerns, as these are some pretty significant buffs.

    The bigger concern for me is our artificially weak mastery. I say artificially, because there's nothing really wrong with it in theory. But the vast majority of encounter design these days makes it weak. Raids aren't allowed to sit at low HP for long, because there are so many high damage bursty boss abilities that can kill you if you're below 50-60%, which is coincidently near the point where mastery gives the same out-put as other secondary stats. Therefore, it very rarely gets a chance to shine. Now, the standard design is "low raid damage phases that get healed up by smart healing followed by big burst phases that are either negated by shields, and/or quickly healed up by cooldowns".

    This means that there is usually only a very small window for our mastery to be truly effective, and also, in my learned opinion, is why disc priests are so strong, but haven't seen remarkable nerfs yet - encounter design plays perfectly into their toolset of instant smart atonement healing covering the low damage phase, then spirit shell absorbing the burst.

    If we went back to a Cataclysm model of constant moderate raid damage but few things that could outright kill you, our mastery would be good again, because it would always have a good chance of being effective.

    /rant over.

  8. #8
    Blizz stated that there goal is to make us the king of the hill for stacked healing. So in there eyes if we are weaker at spread healing so be it.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post

    /rant over.
    Those buffs are all well and good. However, they amplify the problem.

    I am well aware that Blizzard have found a niche for us and Im happy we will excel in SOMETHING. However the problem is that area, barely exists.

    Its no use being the king of stacked heals if there is no stacking. From what we've seen in SoO, everything is very spread out. Much like ToT where a lot of the fights are very spread with very short phases of stacking. By the time Resto sets in for healing, absorbs are already up and before you know it the phase is almost over.

    The problem isnt the class, its the situations we're put in. Either Blizzard needs to design some phases where we can show our strengths or Blizzard needs to alter those strengths.
    Last edited by Murderdoll; 2013-07-17 at 02:28 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    Those buffs are all well and good. However, they amplify the problem.

    I am well aware that Blizzard have found a niche for us and Im happy we will excel in SOMETHING. However the problem is that area, barely exists.

    Its no use being the king of stacked heals if there is no stacking. From what we've seen in SoO, everything is very spread out. Much like ToT where a lot of the fights are very spread with very short phases of stacking. By the time Ele sets in for healing, absorbs are already up and before you know it the phase is almost over.

    The problem isnt the class, its the situations we're put in. Either Blizzard needs to design some phases where we can show our strengths or Blizzard needs to alter those strengths.
    Well, on live, we are terrible across the board at everything, so dominating stacked healing, getting major cooldown (HTT plus AG) buffs so that we should be back to having the best cooldowns (which we were before the buffs to Tranq, etc), as well as buffs to spread healing (CH buff, CH glyph buff, option to take the new RS talent) is a huge improvement over what we have now.

    The stacked healing niche thing is just Blizzard's concept for the spec, and something they are adamant on, so the best that we can do for this PTR cycle is ask to be competitive overall (which we should be with these buffs), and to actually be the best and not bottom of the barrel in that niche (which we are on live). The idea of getting rid of the stacked healing niche and being more well rounded healers is a battle to fight over the beta for the next expansion. If anything, Shaman are probably the class most in need of a warlock style revamp. The class has just so many mechanics that feel archaic and out of date that it probably needs to be reworked completely.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Well, on live, we are terrible across the board at everything, so dominating stacked healing, getting major cooldown (HTT plus AG) buffs so that we should be back to having the best cooldowns (which we were before the buffs to Tranq, etc), as well as buffs to spread healing (CH buff, CH glyph buff, option to take the new RS talent) is a huge improvement over what we have now.

    The stacked healing niche thing is just Blizzard's concept for the spec, and something they are adamant on, so the best that we can do for this PTR cycle is ask to be competitive overall (which we should be with these buffs), and to actually be the best and not bottom of the barrel in that niche (which we are on live). The idea of getting rid of the stacked healing niche and being more well rounded healers is a battle to fight over the beta for the next expansion. If anything, Shaman are probably the class most in need of a warlock style revamp. The class has just so many mechanics that feel archaic and out of date that it probably needs to be reworked completely.
    Our Mechanics are Fine, its the numbers that need tweaking. You ever play a Pally healer? I have one, and I quit him because THAT's a class that feels archaic and out of date. The only difference is that the pally numbers are fine.

    Elemental? Fine Mechanics, Shock Juggling is a part of playing well, its like watching dots

    Enhance, Mechanics are fine

    I see No need for a revamp

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    The problem isnt the class, its the situations we're put in.
    100% in agreement with you there. The two situations in which Shamans are designed to excel (stacked healing and healing low hp targets) just don't really exist for any meaningful period of time any more, aside from a few encounters here and there. I'm not suggesting that all of a sudden they bring back Ultraxion style fights, because good lord was that boring, at least in retrospect. But it's a sad truth that as a generalisation, "interesting encounter design" generally doesn't allow for stacking, and on the rare occasion that the raid can stack, there's almost always another mechanic that requires the group to move or disperse at a moment's notice, which devalues the contribution of Healing Rain.

    Likewise with our mastery, having the raid at a constantly lowish hp% but with no risk of being gibbed isn't exactly interesting either. What healer is going to really get engaged when they know all they have to do is provide a minimum level of hps and there's no real danger? The burst from bosses, requiring preparation of damage reduction and healing cooldowns, and big healing after is more dynamic, more interesting. And this is clearly the way Blizzard are moving, and I can understand why.

    It also seems a bit grasping to say "hey Blizzard, reckon you could work a few more stacking phases into your boss fights?". I think how a certain mechanic effects 1/6 healing specs is probably pretty low down on the encounter design team's checklist.

    I think the way forward is with the glyph system, where people can alter the way spells work as per encounter. Without trying to turn this into a spell/glyph/talent suggestion post, something like "Glyph of Healing Rain: Healing Rain no longer heals targets in an ground effect area; instead, it applies a HoT to each target in the original radius at the time of casting, which heals for [less healing than if everyone stood in the normal area effect for its full duration]". Obviously that wouldn't work, as it would break the Conductivty talent, but that's besides the point - it's just an example of how the glyph system could be used to resolve encounter design issues that really stray away from our stated niche.
    Last edited by Sparkidy; 2013-07-17 at 02:41 AM.

  13. #13
    how to fix wow
    1. delete mastery
    2. scale all abilities/numbers to be balanced around a spread out/tons of running style encounter with 0 adds

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowforlife79 View Post
    Blizz stated that there goal is to make us the king of the hill for stacked healing. So in there eyes if we are weaker at spread healing so be it.
    Well until now, all other healers are also better on stacked healing. And that's even a corner where those enhancement shamans can put out somewhat extreme so you can replace a shaman healer by two shaman dds putting healing rains on.

    We will have to see how it all works out. There are some pretty impressive buffs coming, but to be honest, resto is very far behind, so don't know if it's enough.

  15. #15
    They really need to do something about our Mastery, that's all that needs to happen. It's a double-edged sword though, it's roughly overpowered in PvP, but in PvE it's pretty weak and because of the mechanic behind it, you can't really buff it.

    I was personally thinking of reducing our base mastery a bit, but adding a secondary affect like:

    Increases the potency of your healing spells by up to 24%, based on the current health level of your target [lower health targets are healed for more] and causes up to 40% of any over healing you do to instead heal the target over 12 seconds.

    It might work, it might not but hey it's a suggestion.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Well until now, all other healers are also better on stacked healing. And that's even a corner where those enhancement shamans can put out somewhat extreme so you can replace a shaman healer by two shaman dds putting healing rains on.

    We will have to see how it all works out. There are some pretty impressive buffs coming, but to be honest, resto is very far behind, so don't know if it's enough.
    It's OK, the paladin community is already whining for Shaman to be nerfed based on LFR testing where overheal is about 30% lower than what we have on live and on stacked fights.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    It's OK, the paladin community is already whining for Shaman to be nerfed based on LFR testing where overheal is about 30% lower than what we have on live and on stacked fights.
    Well they are somewhat used to dominate resto shamans so now, that shamans have a strength and might be best on few fights, they all whine. Nothing else expected.

    I'm more interested in 25m heroic testing. LFR testing doesn't matter since you ignore mechanics a lot and normally, when you're a good healer, you are simply more skilled and geared than any1 else in LFR.

    Don't forget that 25m hc will require once again a lot of spreading.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Well they are somewhat used to dominate resto shamans so now, that shamans have a strength and might be best on few fights, they all whine. Nothing else expected.

    I'm more interested in 25m heroic testing. LFR testing doesn't matter since you ignore mechanics a lot and normally, when you're a good healer, you are simply more skilled and geared than any1 else in LFR.

    Don't forget that 25m hc will require once again a lot of spreading.
    Well, LFR testing on the PTR right now has the ilvl scaled to 496, so everyone is at the same gear level, and at a pretty low gear level relative to where we will actually be running that content at when it goes live. Overhealing in particular is really low, in the 50% range, whereas it is at about 75% on 25H for me typically. This means that Shaman are getting much larger gains from Mastery in LFR testing right now than we will ever see on live when people are at a normal ilvl and in a competent group. Other classes are whining about the HR buff being the cause of Shaman looking overpowered on the PTR, but it's really mastery being inflated by the current conditions.

  19. #19
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    This seems real stupid to me, what's wrong with making them "like everyone else"......shouldn't all healers have basic tools that do all jobs well, just like how all healers have a dispel now, or all dps have an interrupt and snare.
    No, they shouldn't. Because if they did, there'd be no point to having different classes in the first place.

    You're unfairly comparing primary "tools" with utility tools; every healer needs a dispel because they decided to make dispelling a healer's role. If Resto Druids didn't have a dispel, and you ran into a boss where that dispel was needed, if your 10-man group had two Resto druids healing, you'd be screwed. The dispel system used to work this way, in fact, and people used to swap healers around every fight where certain dispels were useful, for exactly this reason. That's why they changed it and made it healer-default, while also removing those dispels from most non-healers.

    Healers need different strengths when it comes to primary role performance. DPS and tanks have similar variations. Some DPS are better than others in mobile fights. Others are better in AoE situations, still others when you can multidot, and so on. Some tanks are avoidance tanks, or soak tanks, each having strengths in certain boss fights. They have admittedly mitigated a lot of the differences in tanks, but that's because you only have one tank, typically, in 10-mans, and two in 25-mans; those differences are exacerbated.

    Healers need their differences. That's why we have a class system. Each healer should have some tools for everything, just like every DPS has some capacity to AoE, but that doesn't mean they should all be equally good at it with identical abilities.

    The goal is not equality, nor balance on any given fight. It is overall balance. So long as Resto has strengths to offset the weakness of their spread-healing, they're balanced and fine.

  20. #20
    Are resto shamans really looking that good on the PTR? I'm not going to be too excited till the new patch hits live to avoid disappointment.

    As for the "stacked" healing niche. I love it. Healing rain placement is an interesting choice for me. Sometimes you even have to guess movement when it comes to its placement, which can be fun as well.

    In the past, the thing that concerned me was how lackluster we were at stacked healing. At the cost of abysmal spread healing.

    Moral of the story I find niches fun!

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