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  1. #181
    Sure its pretty major but comparing those results with from live: http://simulationcraft.org/530/Raid_T15H.html

    It seems implausible that the changes result in combat suffering a 21% dps loss. I'm looking at the SimCraft source now to try to see what is going on.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    http://gyazo.com/3b4cfaf966fba73bb9949369f1f1ce4b

    This is a sim of the 5.4 changes without any change in gear. Mostly, it's the SS change and the RPPM change. Assassination largely didn't move, feral druids went way the hell up, ret paladins went up and combat just tanked.

    Good thing we'll be losing the t15 4set, as well.
    Guess you don't read many blue posts because almost every blue post I've seen on mmo-champion's front page has said to start "hey here are some proposed changes theses are some what we think are cool changes to help balance and fix this class" and then the add after that every time "this is the ptr no changes are final and have a good chance to be changed so don't take anything here seriously yet" and then a new thing that they've added in 5.4 so far that I've seen dozens of times "hey guys stop complaining we haven't even started balancing damage yet".

    Unless blue posts end up being full of lies and deceit in general Blizzard has always been a slow moving machine that really tries to polish stuff off well before they send it out. Right now they're still in the process of building and making major adjustments to 5.4 and they haven't done any of that fine tuning and polishing yet.

    That being said I personally don't think Blizzard has any clue what do do with combat rogues so if these changes make it live and combat rogues turn from not as good as they should be right now to unplayabley bad I wouldn't honestly be too surprised.

    But right now I think a lot of people are just looking at a small piece of the giant puzzle that Blizzard is putting together and because they see just this little tiny thing and not the other changes that have yet to be shown they're freaking out for no reason. Now if this is a problem it should be addressed to Blizzard on their ptr forums so that they can see whats going on and hopefully tune accordingly... not screaming bloody murder and starting riots because you think it's the end of the world.

  3. #183
    I guess you're reading blue posts in an alternate universe because what rogues have heard from Blizzard so far is: "we realize you need some help" "GC was just jking lol that's not gonna happen" "when you get your 'overhaul' don't expect much" "we're happy with the way rogues are".

    Our changes? Well, we took a GIGANTIC hit to our main stat, a nerf to our main ability and we'll be losing a 20k DPS set bonus, and we got a few quality of life fixes, though only one of them is really useful (redirect). At the absolute latest estimates, we're about 6-8 weeks from 5.4 hitting lives. The earliest give us 3 more weeks. Unless changes hit *today*, it's likely too late to see anything that we'll have real time to test out. And even if we do, Blizzard doesn't seem to care. They nerfed Combat with the evis/SS changes and we've been telling them since before it hit the test realm that it was a large nerf. It's been a month.

    Fiery, is it possible that the sim isn't taking the set bonus into account for some reason? It would still be a major drop-off for Combat with the t15 bonus, but would explain the enormity of the drop.

  4. #184
    Killars is now streaming (PTR) 10m heroic as combat. It's nice to see what combat is capable of from one of the best pve rogues around. I'm not gonna post a link but you can find it easy on twitch.
    Last edited by Shinob1; 2013-08-06 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    Fiery, is it possible that the sim isn't taking the set bonus into account for some reason? It would still be a major drop-off for Combat with the t15 bonus, but would explain the enormity of the drop.
    I'm not a simcraft expert at all so I'm not really sure. Playing around with the outputs of SimCraft to see whats going on. CD uptime dropped and I don't see any reference to Ruthlessness in the source code so its very possible ruthlessness isn't implented which would make the results we are seeing more consistent with ShadowCraft. Hopefully Shadowboy sees this thread because he knows his way around SimCraft much better than me.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  6. #186
    I see this thread, but I haven't looked into it yet, nor have I hacked ruthlessness into the SimC code. I'd probably, just as a quick change, implement it into the relentless strikes function to avoid rewriting a lot of code--at least if a cursory view is your goal.

    A quick way to implement ruthlessness would be to open sc_rogue.cpp file, go to line 588 and change:

    Code:
      if ( p -> rng.relentless_strikes -> roll( chance * td -> combo_points.count ) )
      {
        double gain = p -> spell.relentless_strikes -> effectN( 1 ).trigger() -> effectN( 1 ).resource( RESOURCE_ENERGY );
        p -> resource_gain( RESOURCE_ENERGY, gain, p -> gains.relentless_strikes );
      }
    to

    Code:
      if ( p -> rng.relentless_strikes -> roll( chance * td -> combo_points.count ) )
      {
        double gain = p -> spell.relentless_strikes -> effectN( 1 ).trigger() -> effectN( 1 ).resource( RESOURCE_ENERGY );
        p -> resource_gain( RESOURCE_ENERGY, gain, p -> gains.relentless_strikes );
        
        if ( p() -> specialization() == ROGUE_COMBAT )
        {
            td -> combo_points.add( 1, "Ruthlessness" );
        }
      }

    or something like that. It's a quick hack, but should work since the logic on ruthlessness is more or less the same as relentless strikes (20% per combo point, works on all finishers).

    Edit: Upon reflection, I'm not sure if this would work so well since it looks like this is actually adding the ruthlessness combo point before consuming the combo points from the finisher. You might need to in fact create a simple ruthlessness function and call that function in each finisher's routine.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-08-06 at 09:15 PM.

  7. #187
    I wasn't hugely interested in the SimCraft implementation at least for now. I was really just trying to track down why the combat SimCraft result showed such a massive dps loss implementing the T15 changes. I submitted it as an issue to SimCraft so they know about it.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Guess you don't read many blue posts because almost every blue post I've seen on mmo-champion's front page has said to start "hey here are some proposed changes theses are some what we think are cool changes to help balance and fix this class" and then the add after that every time "this is the ptr no changes are final and have a good chance to be changed so don't take anything here seriously yet" and then a new thing that they've added in 5.4 so far that I've seen dozens of times "hey guys stop complaining we haven't even started balancing damage yet".
    Guess you haven't kept track of past events... for rogues, blizzard has a very strong track record of making changes, saying not to worry because they will balance it later, and then launching it without actually balancing worth a damn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    we'll be losing a 20k DPS set bonus,
    Uh, you sure we will be losing it? I think we might end up still wearing it.

  9. #189
    If we continue to wear the t15 4set, we're losing out on a ton of stats by the time you hit heroic gear.

  10. #190
    "a ton of stats" on 4 pieces of gear may not overcome that set bonus, given that the set bonus will scale with the other 12 slots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    I wasn't hugely interested in the SimCraft implementation at least for now. I was really just trying to track down why the combat SimCraft result showed such a massive dps loss implementing the T15 changes. I submitted it as an issue to SimCraft so they know about it.
    I haven't looked at the most recent simcraft svn, so I can neither confirm nor deny whether or not ruthlessness is implemented.

  11. #191
    On another note. It looks like Eviscerate has some dead code. Evisc can't trigger CttC because Assassination learns Envenom before it learns CttC, and only Assassination learns CttC. The CttC code segment in the Evisc impact method is just a dead if statement.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    If we continue to wear the t15 4set, we're losing out on a ton of stats by the time you hit heroic gear.
    This is without simming, but the t15 4p is currently worth so much more than the t16 4p that I doubt the gain from the stats on them will compensate out for the loss of that retarded bonus.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Pathal View Post
    On another note. It looks like Eviscerate has some dead code. Evisc can't trigger CttC because Assassination learns Envenom before it learns CttC, and only Assassination learns CttC. The CttC code segment in the Evisc impact method is just a dead if statement.
    Well that shouldn't mess anything up right? I mean, it's not like assassination can even use eviscerate in game.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Why hasn't some insane Asian kid out there with like 600 APM and an awesome internet connection with 0 latency pulled higher numbers than assassination?
    lol seriously?

  15. #195
    it's not bad, it's just sub and ass are better

  16. #196
    Sub is not better.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well that shouldn't mess anything up right? I mean, it's not like assassination can even use eviscerate in game.
    What pathal was referring to was really something a programmer would be interested in. I don't know if Pathal's referring to shadowcraft or simulationcraft, but an if statement that is never true is a test a processor is needlessly doing and would indeed make simc/shadowcraft run imperceptibly slower--which means a lot in the case of shadowcraft's back end calculating things for who knows how many users.

  18. #198
    I'm talking about SimC, approximately line 1435. It should be a negligible performance hit, but dead code nonetheless.

    I've had to keep an eye on slow code a lot lately, it's almost getting in the way of things when I could be more accurate or make things easier to read/follow. Spending a lot of time on the Combat calculations was what was causing most of the slowdowns in 5.2. If only there were such a thing as a free lunch.

  19. #199
    It's minor indeed, but keep in mind that wowprogress has a simdps feature that uses simcraft, and given the size of the database of characters, small inefficiencies like that can add up when dealing with something on a server. For the average joe using simc on their home computer it won't make a difference, but for something the size of wowprogress or the shadowcraft web interface--where the code runs on a server, things like that should be changed.

    That bit of code no doubt is a holdover from the wotlk/cata iterations of simc.

  20. #200
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Combat PvE and Patch 5.4
    So, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, we upped the energy cost and damage of Sinister Strike to try to cut back on the spam just slightly. Incidentally, it also helps with the issue of energy capping while both Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are active with the Tier 15 4-piece bonus.

    We feel that, with the higher Sinister Strike energy cost in place, we can leave the Tier 15 4-piece as it is. It'll still be a good set bonus, but not quite as good as before, to the point that we don't think it'll have an adverse effect on Tier 16 balance.

    Now, I recognize that the general sentiment in this thread seems to disagree with that. Part of why I'm posting this is that I'd like to understand why that is. Keep in mind that this isn't part of balance tuning -- that'll be starting soon, but for the moment we're just trying to get Combat to "feel" right. We're confident that we can make the numbers line up properly with how things are currently functioning on the PTR, but if you disagree, we'd like to know why.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We're not convinced Fire is going to scale out of control. Beyond say 50% crit or so, the value starts to decrease.
    I'm finding it very hard to swallow this statement, and so does other DPSers who compete with mages. Elaborate?
    Fire's DPS is a little high in ToT. We were worried they were going to scale much higher in SoO, but it may not happen.
    So we can adjust their damage without say crushing Critical Mass or the like, which mostly hurts less geared majority.
    Am I the only one who sees the irony?

    Edit. I'll refrain from commenting on their view of t15 4p (aka the source of Combat's latency issues and lacking damage on a real environment), I would likely get a ban if I did.
    Last edited by Linneth; 2013-08-10 at 11:17 AM.

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