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  1. #101
    Verain: The fact of the matter is, combat is behind assassination, and generally requires less effort to get the results.
    Hold on, are you implying that combat requires less effort to get results? Or am I reading this wrong?

  2. #102
    Pretty sure that last part was describing assassination as it looked to me like he was listing the 2 major reasons assassination is more popular as dps and ease of play.

  3. #103
    Yar, sorry, written not so clear.

    Assassination require less effort than combat, in my opinion.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Yar, sorry, written not so clear.

    Assassination require less effort than combat, in my opinion.
    Looked at the top combat parse for jin'rok and then found an assassination parse with the same time of 2:46.

    Assassination: 22 dispatch, 18 mutilates, 13 envenoms, 7 ruptures and then 1 SnD, 1 Vendetta, 1 Shadow Blades for a total of 63 buttons pushed about 1 every 2.63 seconds.

    Combat: 72 sinister strike, 17 evis, 8 revealing strikes, 5 ruptures, 1 ambush, 5 SnD, 4 KsP, 3 adrenaline rushes, 3 shadow dances for a total of 118 buttons pushed about 1 every 1.4 seconds.

    Assassination: 348857.6 dps
    Combat: 316978.9 dps.

    I know people say that jin'rok is a bad comparison of dps but hell this is the No. 1 combat parse (US & EU) vs. the No. 16 assassination parse. Was just finding a single target no aoe same kill time fight.

    Combat has to watch SnD, Revealing strike, Rupture and bandits guile.
    Assassination has to watch envenom and rupture (puts up snd once and forgets about it).

    Combat has 2 CDs to use generally on long timers so they really don't get much usage just need to use them at the correct time... pretty easy to do.

    Assassination has 3 CDs made pretty short with restless blades so you get to use CDs way more frequently and then they also have a pretty short CD killing spree which not only is on a short cool down but can kill you if improperly used.

    So, combat has to do almost twice the work of assassination, has more buffs to manage and has a buff that if improperly used will kill them... and assassination sits pretty and destroys charts while playing very relaxed.

    About as fair and balanced as Fox news!

    Oh and the whole point is to show that yes. Verain is correct and combat requires a lot more effort about twice as much for a lower pay off.

  5. #105
    @Warstar: those are 10N parses, not really the best comparison.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinob1 View Post
    @Warstar: those are 10N parses, not really the best comparison.
    Wasn't meant to be. Was just using it as an example about how much more combat has to do in the same time as assassination. Two different raid groups killing a boss in the same time means that the boss was pretty much doing the same thing at the same time unless for some reason one of those guilds uses a really dumb strat (pretty sure guilds killing stuff fast enough to get world parses even in normal mode have a general idea of what the correct way to do stuff is) the boss should be in roughly the same place at the same time giving the rogues the same situations and possible buff up time.

    It's a perfect way to show how 2 people in roughly the same circumstance doing the same thing do it in a very different way and one person is doing a lot more.

    You can take any 2 parses between assassination and combat of a same length encounter and combat is going to be doing a whole lot more each time.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Wasn't meant to be. Was just using it as an example about how much more combat has to do in the same time as assassination. Two different raid groups killing a boss in the same time means that the boss was pretty much doing the same thing at the same time unless for some reason one of those guilds uses a really dumb strat (pretty sure guilds killing stuff fast enough to get world parses even in normal mode have a general idea of what the correct way to do stuff is) the boss should be in roughly the same place at the same time giving the rogues the same situations and possible buff up time.

    It's a perfect way to show how 2 people in roughly the same circumstance doing the same thing do it in a very different way and one person is doing a lot more.

    You can take any 2 parses between assassination and combat of a same length encounter and combat is going to be doing a whole lot more each time.
    You're equating buttons pressed with difficulty level. It's two different playstyles and both are stupid easy to play. Lets just all hope for a sub buff.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    You're equating buttons pressed with difficulty level. It's two different playstyles and both are stupid easy to play. Lets just all hope for a sub buff.
    Combat has more to micromanage, less time to make those micromanagement decisions (due to a higher apm), and is punished more for poor decisions. These things together make the spec significantly more challenging to play.

  9. #109
    And I disagree, I used to be a hardcore combat fan and I still like to pull it out on farm fights. Combat does indeed involve some quick decisions, but you always have the resources available to perform your actions. Decisions in combat are for the here and now while assas decisions are made to effect the outcome of what will happen 6-8 seconds in the future. It's all a matter of personal opinion and choice. Combat really is a touch lower than assasination in damage, but it's only like 3-4K difference. I really don't see the need for a major overhaul of a specc that performs a little under another specc just because some people think it's harder to play....which it isnt....IMO.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Combat has more to micromanage, less time to make those micromanagement decisions (due to a higher apm), and is punished more for poor decisions. These things together make the spec significantly more challenging to play.
    Its important to distinguish manual dexterity from skill. Blizzard could create 5 versions of SS one that could only be used at each number of combo points (SS_0, SS_1, SS_2, etc.) and that wouldn't increase the skill cap. Combat is harder now, no denying that but simply equating button presses and APM to skill isn't a great approach.
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    Its important to distinguish manual dexterity from skill. Blizzard could create 5 versions of SS one that could only be used at each number of combo points (SS_0, SS_1, SS_2, etc.) and that wouldn't increase the skill cap. Combat is harder now, no denying that but simply equating button presses and APM to skill isn't a great approach.
    You're falling under the #1 statistical fallacy of "correlation equals causation." APM is correlated with skill but is not the CAUSE of difficulty. The difficulty stems from the fact that you need to make decisions faster and an incorrect decision is more costly. Manual dexterity has nothing to do with that---mental dexterity does. How many times and how often you press sinister strike isn't what makes it harder. The question is when to pool, for how long, when to delay cds and when to use them immediately, etc, and these decisions need to be made rapidly.

    And in response to mongoose: The "future" timing of abilities is true for combat, too, it may not be 6-8 seconds, but still you need to plan around the next 3-4 seconds. Case in point: Combo point generation is slow enough that if you refresh SnD with existing combo points while anticipation is up, that anticipation buff could potentially fall off before you get another 5 combo points, and refreshing SnD at that point was an extremely costly decision---assassination has NO such challenge.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-07-30 at 01:52 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    And in response to mongoose: The "future" timing of abilities is true for combat, too, it may not be 6-8 seconds, but still you need to plan around the next 3-4 seconds. Case in point: Combo point generation is slow enough that if you refresh SnD with existing combo points while anticipation is up, that anticipation buff could potentially fall off before you get another 5 combo points, and refreshing SnD at that point was an extremely costly decision---assassination has NO such challenge.
    When you say anticipation buff, do you mean anticipation charges? I'm a little confused by what you mean by anticipation buff. In any case, I enjoy that you are so passionate about the specc. We need more people in the rogue community that are so dedicated. However, you'll never convince me that combat is harder to play lol. I could say that if you don't think assasination is hard, then you arent doing it right, but then the same could be said of me with combat.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    You're equating buttons pressed with difficulty level. It's two different playstyles and both are stupid easy to play. Lets just all hope for a sub buff.
    He's not claiming that's the only thing. But I want to point out, it's a pretty damned big deal.

    The actual rotation of mutilate is, I feel it is fair to say, easier than combat. And the benefit to timing your envenoms properly is small, and with the new refresh window for rupture I think that's also not as tough to nail as it used to be. Both specs can proc combo points, both specs will normally run rupture, combat will also run slice and dice and has to pop revealing strike back correctly, as well as monitor bandit's guile (you don't want to refresh slice and dice in red, but neither do you want to overwrite a fat slice and dice, so calling this shot correctly can serve as a distinguishing point). The only thing really pushing in favor of mutilate having something combat doesn't is the dispatch procs- the result of which is generally straightforward, and, most importantly, since it's only during a few small parts of the fight that you will be running your whole cycle back to back for certain, you will normally not miss a proc (you don't normally want mutilate -> proc -> mutilate outside of a really energy rich situation- when you can you would want mutilate -> proc -> dispatch -> mutilate).

    Meanwhile, mutilate is given the tools to do what the spec is about- timing- and combat is apparently about smacking buttons properly instead of what it has historically been about.

    both are stupid easy to play
    I would say this is a pretty inappropriate statement.



    His point about APM is very much a good one. If you have to press twice as many buttons, this likely means you have to think quite a bit faster, and are much more likely to press the WRONG button- or to press it more often.


    I don't think APM is by any means the sole indicator of the difficulty of a spec. But it is definitely worth discussing, and rather important.


    Decisions in combat are for the here and now while assas decisions are made to effect the outcome of what will happen 6-8 seconds in the future.
    A combat rogue can make decisions that involve the next bandit's guile wave.


    Combat really is a touch lower than assasination in damage, but it's only like 3-4K difference.
    People have posted stuff contrary to this in this thread, with links. This isn't even an anecdote.




    When you say anticipation buff, do you mean anticipation charges? I'm a little confused by what you mean by anticipation buff.
    The charges are technically just a short duration buff that stacks to 5. They didn't bother to implement anything meaningful there, just as bandit's guile is just a fucking colored scarab. Both should be UI elements like combo points or balance eclipse by default.

    So yea, you are both talking about the same thing.


    However, you'll never convince me that combat is harder to play lol.
    We might not, but it doesn't change that reality.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-07-30 at 04:06 PM.

  14. #114
    Personal perspective of difficulty level isn't reality, its opinion. I understand that those who choose to play combat feel that the reward to effort ratio for the specc is scewed but I just really don't think it is. There will ALWAYS be one specc that outperforms the other, no way there will ever be true balance. The only specc I believe that is severely unrewarded for the amount of effort put into it is sub. Then again, thats just my opinion.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Personal perspective of difficulty level isn't reality, its opinion.
    Now you are qualifying difficulty with "personal perspective of". That's not what we are talking about though.

    Combat is objectively harder to play than mutilate. You have more actions, you have to think ahead further, every global is more important. A feinting combat rogue will lose way more dps than a feinting mutilate rogue, so this increase in difficulty can apply to the raid mechanics as well- a fight can make you work much harder to stay in the game as combat. But even on a target dummy, combat is OBJECTIVELY harder. You press more buttons in less time while watching more timers and needing to think further in the future.

    In case someone tunes in right now and thinks I'm shitting on Assassination rogues I'm absolutely not. Please don't take that message out of that paragraph!

    I understand that those who choose to play combat feel that the reward to effort ratio for the specc is scewed but I just really don't think it is.
    I think it's actually surprising that you think that. We can't find any evidence of rogues who put out more damage in combat than mutilate (and it seems likely that many combat parses are like "rogue gets good combat weapon that blows away his daggers"), of those who play both. And honestly, this goes along with my personal experience as well. Combat is more buttons, puts more restrictions on staying on the boss, hurts your ability to feint (you lose the least dps feinting in yellow, hope that lines up with the incoming damage!), and hurts your ability to recuperate. Being off boss hurts combat because suddenly your cooldowns aren't cooling down properly either, and then you have the 0.5 second spamfest that, while a rush, often has a lack of execution that is out of your control.

    And, I'll also point out- if you really can't get the button timing properly and respond because you yourself have a slower response time- why do you get fucked? No one else gets fucked. Combat rogues didn't get fucked with that before this tier, no other class needs fighter pilot reaction times, and every video game player is constantly honing his reaction time, so it's not like you can just go practice more. That's a kind of athleticism, and it even declines with age on the same curve as athletic ability. And we have a spec for this?

    But fuck that. You can (against the ToS) macro all that if you need to. Then you just find out that the server can lag with it and still miss button presses.


    And if all of that lines up? You have the reflexes, your server isn't lagging that night, you can stay on the boss full time, you predict everything you watch your timers...

    And nope, no payoff. Not better damage than mutilate.


    I have a hard time seeing this from your point of view, tbh.


    There will ALWAYS be one specc that outperforms the other, no way there will ever be true balance. The only specc I believe that is severely unrewarded for the amount of effort put into it is sub. Then again, thats just my opinion.

    I think sub is the least rewarded spec by a mile, so I'm with you there. Sub requires bizarre positioning, and I tried it out on HJIN and he was like "lemme turn around to cast a thing" and Shadowdance was like "lol oops".

    Mutilate being better than Combat at a task isn't really the root of what I'm miffed about. It's mostly that correctly nailing the assassination rotation doesn't net me much dps over a version of that where I don't play that well.


    I think Combat is badly designed. I think when we lost blade flurry, we lost the big reason to play this spec.
    > Restless Blades is probably the worst ability in the game.
    > These globals need work. Alternatively, we need a thing off a global to spend energy on.
    > If mutilate is going to be better single target sustained, combat probably needs a meaningfully better burst phase. If you took these specs from dragonsoul and put them here, I'm betting you'd see Combat able to win on Heroic Jin'Rokh attempts, for instance.
    > Bandit's Guile is almost a great mechanic. It would be nice if we had a bit of control over it.

  16. #116
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with Combat, I feel way more comfortable with it than say.. sub, not to mention it has its places. On nest duty for example, Combat is amazing
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I think Combat is badly designed. I think when we lost blade flurry, we lost the big reason to play this spec.
    > Restless Blades is probably the worst ability in the game.
    > These globals need work. Alternatively, we need a thing off a global to spend energy on.
    > If mutilate is going to be better single target sustained, combat probably needs a meaningfully better burst phase. If you took these specs from dragonsoul and put them here, I'm betting you'd see Combat able to win on Heroic Jin'Rokh attempts, for instance.
    > Bandit's Guile is almost a great mechanic. It would be nice if we had a bit of control over it.
    and this is something I can agree with. All difficulty aside, when you have to implement changes to the GCD in order to make a specc viable, then there are fundamental design flaws. I wouldn't even go back to Cata days, I would take it all the way back to TBC when Blade Flurry was a CD that not only allowed you to hit multiple targets for a set period of time, but also gave you an attack speed increase. Blade Flurry was a viable cooldown back then whether there was an extra target or not. Maybe this reversion would be what's needed to give combat a little burst boost while maintaining the iconic cleave. I played combat main specc all the way from TBC to Cata but the specc has gotten more and more odd. I'm not saying harder, just.....wierder?

  18. #118
    Bandit's guile and Restless blades are two abilities that fight each other, BG says "use your CD's when you can get the max output from them", RB says "use your cd as soon as possible", is that good design?

  19. #119
    I think the reason people don't cry for sub toooo much is because of pvp. Sub is the most used spec in pvp and is even labeled currently as the "pvp spec".

    What happens when a pvp spec gets buffed?

    All the flavor of the month fan boys hop over and level a rogue, rogues start to dominate in pvp, every one else not a rogue cries, ALL rogue specs then get nerfed (cata -> mop anyone?) and then fotm fan boys leave to go play other op specs, rogue representation gets nerfed all around, rogues cry.

    I do agree that sub is poop in pve and even needs a boost in pvp. Shadow dance should take positional requirements off of ambush. Ever been solo farming stuff as sub? Hey look there's an elite mob I'd like to kill faster... ok what can I do? Well usually I'd Vendetta or Adrenaline rush here. Oh! Let me go use Shadow Dance! Umm... Garrote spam idk? And perhaps maybe let hemo stack a debuff that makes it eventually as powerful as backstab. Like say at 5 stacks of blah hemo acts just like backstab. Still makes backstab better in pvp with target switches and what not but in pve if you HAVE to not be on the bosses butt you can build up your stacks and not let your dps suffer.

    As far as combat. The facts stand. I don't understand how people can argue against them. I understand if they like the spec and find it fun or that's just what they're used to but the 100% factual mater is that combat rogues are under performing. So many people are fine and complacent with doing less dps? Why? Why should you be happy that you're doing anywhere from a little to a lot less dps than assassination? Those same people are I'm guessing the ones who got trophies for participating in sports instead of winning. Everyone's a winner if they just show up and play am I right guys? Personally I find the attitude of being fine with second best disgusting. People should want to claw tooth and nail for every possible edge they can get. It's one of the main competitive aspects of pve that people have to push themselves towards being better. Sure guilds like Method or Paragon can compete with other guilds to kill stuff fast but 99.99999% of the rest of the players of wow aren't in that atmosphere so all they have is each other to compete with. You should want to do better dps than the rest of your raid. You should want to do better dps than you did the week before because you now have better experience and possibly better gear. You should be an extremely aggressive dpser pushing the tanks to be faster at getting threat on mobs. You should want to be the one who is so awesome you can carry the rest of your raids dps when someone else is slacking. Too many people now a days are so complacent because they're ok with getting their participation trophy instead of striving to do the best they can.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    As far as combat. The facts stand. I don't understand how people can argue against them. I understand if they like the spec and find it fun or that's just what they're used to but the 100% factual mater is that combat rogues are under performing. So many people are fine and complacent with doing less dps? Why? Why should you be happy that you're doing anywhere from a little to a lot less dps than assassination? Those same people are I'm guessing the ones who got trophies for participating in sports instead of winning. Everyone's a winner if they just show up and play am I right guys? Personally I find the attitude of being fine with second best disgusting. People should want to claw tooth and nail for every possible edge they can get. It's one of the main competitive aspects of pve that people have to push themselves towards being better. Sure guilds like Method or Paragon can compete with other guilds to kill stuff fast but 99.99999% of the rest of the players of wow aren't in that atmosphere so all they have is each other to compete with. You should want to do better dps than the rest of your raid. You should want to do better dps than you did the week before because you now have better experience and possibly better gear. You should be an extremely aggressive dpser pushing the tanks to be faster at getting threat on mobs. You should want to be the one who is so awesome you can carry the rest of your raids dps when someone else is slacking. Too many people now a days are so complacent because they're ok with getting their participation trophy instead of striving to do the best they can.
    But then what happens when combat numbers are above assasination?

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