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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshitsuna View Post
    I always just see "its plain!, its boring!", but how would long term rogue players actually want to play?
    The ones you describe aren't playstyles. They are the concepts behind the specs.

    If rotations (hence "playstyle") mirrored what the concepts describe, i don't think many rogues would be complaining.

    At the moment, every rogue with every spec is:
    - spamming SS/BS/Mut
    - keeping up SnD/Rupture
    - throwing Envenom/Eviscerate

    As you can see, the actual things we do are nothing compared to the spec concepts.

    Where is the poison flavour of Assassination? Where is the toe-to-toe and dodgy concept of combat? Where is the "leap from the shadows" thing of subtlety?

    Changing a move damage type doesn't count much. Combat is making people use multi-press macros to deliver the damage it can, because doing it without will cause you carpal tunnel or such.

    As the rogue community is saying from MoP beta, damage is fine, the class base model is good, give use the flavour other classes have - like mages with different spell schools, warlocks with different resources and such.

  2. #162
    I think one of the problems that they have with the rogue class is that "rogue" is typically a class that then splits from "rogue" down to hunters and then assassins or maybe like a swashbuckler type thing with the main difference being a ranged hunter and melee assassin type class. Now you have have an assassin poison class, assassin backstab class and then combat...

    Wtf IS combat anyways? Technically every dps class in the game is "combat". Combat rogue is by far it self the most flavorless class in the game because it has no definition... just... it does combat......... Might as well just rename the spec "melee dps"

    Adding a rogue ranged spec and a hunter melee spec could be interesting. Bring back survival hunters and all their melee tools. Kinda funny that hunter's cant even use part of their vanilla class weapon anymore. And then maybe combine assassination and sub into a dagger backstabbing high poison damage spec, have combat be straight physical hard hitting damage with bleeds and other things instead of poison and then assassination be a ranged spec or whatever idk. Personally I think that'd kinda suck too just cause assassination is probably the most well designed rogue spec atm.

    I think having hunters and rogues as two separate classes makes it kind of difficult for blizz to really differentiate between the two. If they just had "rogue" they could easily quad spec it into: ranged->marksman focused only on weapon damage or beast mastery combining ranged with a pet and then melee-> assassin dagger based backstabs crit based big numbers low sustained or combat high sustained sword combat style play. Four completely different "rogue" stereo type classes turned into specs that are really basically just melee agi dps and ranged agi dps with 6 different names for 2 play styles.

  3. #163
    I'm kinda against the rogue ranged spec - to me combat has a way more tanky flavour. I'm not against a melee hunter spec, but since the removal of melee weapons from them, i think it's more an utopia than else.

  4. #164
    I'd also rather have a tank spec, but I always figured they wouldnt want to add another tank class, and a lot of rogues wouldnt want to lose the "pure" DPS class tag since it's often used to justify a cycle of being best DPS.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240 View Post
    I'd also rather have a tank spec, but I always figured they wouldnt want to add another tank class, and a lot of rogues wouldnt want to lose the "pure" DPS class tag since it's often used to justify a cycle of being best DPS.
    I'd rather have combat as a tank spec too but that'd make to many people QQ.

    Hopefully rogues and hunters get a huge overhall in the next expansion since I'm pretty sure they're just gonna band aid stuff atm and wait to do major changes. Would be nice to see them change the class like they did for warlocks.

  6. #166
    Unfortunately they have already stated the rework on hunters and rogues won't be on that scale, because they're happy with the class model overall.

    I'm happy that Blizz recognizes the fact all the three specs play too much the same, but it's something that cannot be fixed simply with a couple of new spells and some twists of rotations. We need new mechanics on top of the existing energy/cp system, and to get rid of some others (like snd for all the specs - the only place where it behaves is combat).

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Unfortunately they have already stated the rework on hunters and rogues won't be on that scale, because they're happy with the class model overall.

    I'm happy that Blizz recognizes the fact all the three specs play too much the same, but it's something that cannot be fixed simply with a couple of new spells and some twists of rotations. We need new mechanics on top of the existing energy/cp system, and to get rid of some others (like snd for all the specs - the only place where it behaves is combat).
    But at least with a new expansion they can add/remove spells a lot easier than on a patch. Every class needs its spam mechanic to build CP that's just a given but even if you did something like took out rupture for assassination but replaced with with venomous wounds since that's all you use it for anyways and it does garbage dps by itself. Had rupture for sub and then something else for combat... would that change the spec? Sure... Would it give it more flavor? Not really... a rose by any other name is still a rose. Combat needs a random element to it. Extra cp gen from revealing strike is cool but it needs some sort of proc to mix things up. I enjoy how assassination has a different mechanic and feel to it from 100% to 35% and then under 35% to 0. I like that you get get dispatch procs that allow you do do something other than faceroll mutilate and get those extra free cp. For sub I wish they just took backstab out, replaced it with something else and let hemo be the primary cp builder. Hunters with the melee dead zone was a really poor mechanic and they took it out. Can't really front stab someone in the back so they'd need to do away with backstab to accomplish the same thing for sub. Hopefully they take the t16 armor bonus and bake it into sub and let them have that proc all the time.

    Rupture and SnD are boring. SnD is the worst of all because aside from "I know this ups my damage so I'm going to do use it" there's honestly no perceivable change with it on or off. Rogues are a spammy dps class as it is so the time difference between up and not up isn't really enough to be noticeable unless you're really paying attention. Assassination just hits it once and forgets about it anyways. They just need to bake the ability into the class so that we don't need to worry about it. Same thing with rupture. It makes sense with assassination. It's a DoT spec really but for combat and sub it's just kinda boring. Combat it's dps gain is minor over evis and sub you just need it because it makes your over all damage higher.

    I think it'd be cool if bandits guile worked more like eclipse for moonkin and that way you could be doing different things during different times and it'd mix up the feel of combat. So much stuff that rogues have now is passive that it's kinda boring.

  8. #168
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    In my opinion, what both Assassination and Combat lack is something akin to Subtely's HaT.

    When you're playing as Subtely, HaT gives you a "passive" amount of Combo Points by just waiting, making those periods of time where you aren't doing anything part of the rotation itself. You want HaT to fill as much Combo Points as possible without capping energy, allowing you to use energy on demand when you need to. You're not just waiting because you're gimped by energy, you're waiting because you're getting something in return. It makes Subtely quite fluid and not energy starved like Combat and specially Assassination at low Haste levels.

    In other words, while Combo Points are a secondary resource derived from energy while playing Assassination and Combat, it becomes a resource of its own when playing Subtely. This is what both Combat and Assassination needs (and I'm not talking about making HaT baseline for every spec).

    That aside, Anticipation seems too important to be a Talent. It feels like something that should be baseline and have its own UI graphic. Something similar happens to Marked for Death, it is a lvl 90 talent that should be obtainable while leveling, it makes farming much more reasonable as a Rogue.
    Last edited by Linneth; 2013-08-02 at 01:47 PM.

  9. #169
    Reason why combat is bad.
    server/input lag

    Otherwise, I don't feel like I'm playing the same spec at all between sub, assa and combat, but I think it's mainly due to how you approach it (dynamics are what matter the most for me, not the number of buttons needed or their use)
    Last edited by Dryaan; 2013-08-02 at 02:44 AM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Linneth View Post
    In my opinion, what both Assassination and Combat lack is something akin to Subtely's HaT.

    When you're playing as Subtely, HaT gives you a "passive" amount of Combo Points by just waiting, making those periods of time where you aren't doing anything part of the rotation itself. You want HaT to fill as much Combo Points as possible without capping energy, allowing you to use energy on demand when you need to. You're not just waiting because you're gimped by energy, you're waiting because you're getting something in return. It makes Subtely quite fluid and not energy starved like Combat and specially Assassination at low Haste levels.

    In other words, while Combo Points are a secondary resource derived from energy while playing Assassination and Combat, it becomes a resource of its own when playing Subtely. This is what both Combat and Assassination needs (and I'm not talking about making HaT baseline for every spec).

    That aside, Anticipation seems to important to be a Talent. It feels like something that should be baseline and have its own UI graphic. Something similar happens to Marked for Death, it is a lvl 90 talent that should be obtainable while leveling, it makes farming much more reasonable as a Rogue.
    I've always hated HaT's design. A constant influx of Combo Points which take no effort or skill on the players part to acquire. It was implemented to prop up Sub spec because it's unplayable otherwise in any PvE setting.

    The only interactive part is that you have to react to using those CP's in an efficient manner. With the advent of Anticipation and the removal of Recuperate from the Rotation, it's basically removed any vestiges of quick thinking or skill required for the most part.

    Hardly a design to look up to.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshitsuna View Post
    While I get what you mean, "playstyle" is something that needs a better definiton.
    Because, like you said, you like assassination for beeing the "poison" specc.

    Well, that actually is a playstyle.

    Mut = poison
    Combat = spammy kind of whack
    Sub = burst with positional requirements
    A spec that you physically can't execute to its full potential depending on factors completely out of your control isn't a playstyle. It's absolute garbage design and shows that Blizz really has no idea about the rippling effects that small changes make (making AR stack multiplicatively instead of additively is the clear one here).

    The only spec in the game where your rotational abilities are only able to be used depending on who the boss looks at to do "Random Targeted Ability X" is not a playstyle. It's garbage design too. That's like saying playing with your hands completely wrapped in tape is a 'playstyle.'

    I'll agree that they did a decent job making Assassination have some good flavor, but I'd they could still make it more distinct from the other specs. Off the top of my head (for mut): remove SnD, turn Rupture into a finisher that's called Venomous Wounds and does roughly the same thing.

    I've been toying with an idea in my head about if they made the Envenom buff longer, but decreased the chance to proc poisons off autoattacks accordingly, and do something like "your rupture ticks deal poison damage for the duration and restore X energy per tick. Kind of making VW an activate-able thing rather than strictly passive. It'd have to do enough direct damage that you wouldn't feel crappy using it while the buff is up or have a different finisher to use that does only direct damage. IDK what the numbers (specifically duration) would balance out to off the top of my head, but I wouldn't want it to be something that you'd be able to keep up 100% of the time. Which thinking about it now, you can get pretty high Envenom uptime currently so maybe just increasing it by a second (baking in the T15 2pc) would be enough.
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  12. #172
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chult View Post
    I've always hated HaT's design. A constant influx of Combo Points which take no effort or skill on the players part to acquire. It was implemented to prop up Sub spec because it's unplayable otherwise in any PvE setting.

    The only interactive part is that you have to react to using those CP's in an efficient manner. With the advent of Anticipation and the removal of Recuperate from the Rotation, it's basically removed any vestiges of quick thinking or skill required for the most part.

    Hardly a design to look up to.
    It's not about interaction, it's not about skill, it's about flow. Subtely is probably the only Rogue spec with a functional Energy Pool from Blues to endgame epics. Assassination at the start of a expansion is almost cringe-worthy. HaT could be improved, that's for sure, but it's probably the only working resource enhancer that works from start to end without needing "Haste will fix it" BS.

    In my opinion, of course.

  13. #173
    I'm getting this "bug" on PTR where Restless Blades does not proc from finishing moves in burst phase. I'm sometimes missing up to 30 seconds (3 procs) when in AR+SB burst.

    - No SnD during burst.
    - Rupture and Eviscerate as finishers.
    - 7.94% exp standing behind the raider dummy.
    - I don't think it's an external ui bug (the spellbook ability tooltip is showing the exact same time remaining as the timer on action bar icon.)

    Is it a bug?
    Could it be the Assurance of Consequence trinket thats causing the interference somehow?
    Is it something else I'm missing?

  14. #174
    This is not the best place to post a bug. Do that on the PTR forums.

    Check to see if you can repeat the bug and under very specific circumstances.

  15. #175
    While it's good to know if something doesn't line up here on MMO-C, or if you need more manpower to test something on the PTR, please make sure you:

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    post a bug. Do that on the PTR forums.
    We don't have Blizzard Devs handy who can go "oh hey that's a mistake, let me fix it" - some employees keep an eye here, but the PTR forums are MUCH quicker and likely to reach the intended target.

  16. #176
    I posted in the other thread how sin should be all about poisons and bleeds (a re-worked hemo, for example) and sub should be in and out of stealth, but without a clue what to do with combat.


    I think combat should get fury warrior treatment. Lots of procs that require you to do something off the GCD. What if main gauche was a move? I know most of us would just macro it into our other moves (a la BC/WoTLK Kill Command), but it might still make it feel a bit more...active.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulestu View Post
    I posted in the other thread how sin should be all about poisons and bleeds (a re-worked hemo, for example) and sub should be in and out of stealth, but without a clue what to do with combat.


    I think combat should get fury warrior treatment. Lots of procs that require you to do something off the GCD. What if main gauche was a move? I know most of us would just macro it into our other moves (a la BC/WoTLK Kill Command), but it might still make it feel a bit more...active.
    Fury doesn't have any proccs that aren't on the gcd, the only off gcd move you use (aside from CD's) is Heroic Strike, to dump exess rage, so not exactly sure what a "fury treatment" would look like.

    I totally agree with having something off the gcd for rogues tho, anything that makes the rotation a bit more engaging to play.

  18. #178
    http://gyazo.com/3b4cfaf966fba73bb9949369f1f1ce4b

    This is a sim of the 5.4 changes without any change in gear. Mostly, it's the SS change and the RPPM change. Assassination largely didn't move, feral druids went way the hell up, ret paladins went up and combat just tanked.

    Good thing we'll be losing the t15 4set, as well.

  19. #179
    That doesn't agree with ShadowCraft at all. Not saying it isn't accurate but I'm going to be skeptical until I can dig through the methodolgy and see if something else isn't going on there.
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  20. #180
    That's with the SS change and the RPPM change. Losing trinket procs on the pull is pretty major with that initial kspree.

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