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  1. #81
    My point is more, if you give a rogue saying "you do more damage to the target", that you should expect blade flurry to be used to copy that damage. Because that's how flurry works.

    "Even as it is now if it's a buff on you that damage modifier applies to the cleaved target independently of the original so that it doesn't double dip."

    Buffs on YOU make the damage get copied.

    Debuffs on the target make the damage not get copied.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    What if I told you...

    Sims are often wrong.
    I think his point is mostly- if you COULD use the damage correctly, if it could be done properly, that combat would be on top. By a lot. The fact that in practice this isn't even close to true mostly ends up meaning that the damage lost is quite intense.

  2. #82
    The biggest problem is not the amount of dps or the playstyile itself (though it cam be improved a lot), but how Blizzard reacts to the issues the combat spec has.

    It seems to me that the "fixes" they put out aren't looking at all to the entire spec, but instead focus every time on a single smaller problem which taken out of context brings up more different issues than actually solving anything.

    AR brings too much energy, so they lowered the gcd during AR. This brought the issue of latency and using macros to get the max dps - how the hell is this a solution?

    Ok, we need to burn energy faster - we raise SS cost for more damage. It's fine for a DPE conversion, but no one thought about CP generation, BG slower transitions and less relentless strikes? If that was meant to be a dps nerf, they got it right.

    To me, it seems that they are just buying time and trying things to see how they turn out. All about 6.0 - in the end, we now have Assassination as raiding spec, and if the buff/fixes don't turn out well, we can raid anyway and do decent performance. So they don't care much.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    This is easy to verify

    Go to a target dummy: Hit target A, note cleave damage on target B, Target B's should be A*0.4. I just tested and got 13083 SS on A, and 5233 BF on B.
    Repeat, only sunder A but not B: I did that and got 6712 on A, 2616 on B. The expected damage on B was 2684. B did not benefit from the sunder.
    Repeat again, only sunder B but not A: I did this and A took 6181 and B took 2538. The expected value of B was 2472, which means B benefit from sunder, and did more than the expected 40% damage.
    So you're saying I was right in that with old BF while targetting wargod you would be doing 400% physical direct damage instead of 200%? Awesome.

  4. #84
    There are forums and pages and pages to discuss of how bad combat rogues are, that they need attention and so on. Since WotLK they broke the spec and don't fix it, they even find ways to make it worse :s and yet there is no replies from blizzard, they are just ignoring the rogue community... they just lost 700 000 players, and they are just ignoring combat rogues :s is that customer service in Blizzard's eyes?

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Thepsychofreak View Post
    There are forums and pages and pages to discuss of how bad combat rogues are, that they need attention and so on. Since WotLK they broke the spec and don't fix it, they even find ways to make it worse :s and yet there is no replies from blizzard, they are just ignoring the rogue community... they just lost 700 000 players, and they are just ignoring combat rogues :s is that customer service in Blizzard's eyes?
    The loss of subs etc doesn't matter a thing to me at least. Also, i'm not complaining about customer service since actually i had great experience with them when i needed help.

    The thing that bogs my mind and i think many here agree with me is that the supposed fixes they're proposing aren't fixing anything and the core problems have been exposed by a long time, with also a lot of interesting solutions.

    EDIT: combat is not broken. It's just badly designed and some things need to be toned down to make room for improvements. At the moment, devs haven't much room for changes until they break up something and start anew with the mechanics design.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    EDIT: combat is not broken. It's just badly designed and some things need to be toned down to make room for improvements. At the moment, devs haven't much room for changes until they break up something and start anew with the mechanics design.
    And that's not going to happen anytime soon i think.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    And that's not going to happen anytime soon i think.
    The only hope is 6.0 - i'm setting up for another tier as assa which fortunately i find decent. Always talking about gameplay, it could be improved aswell and it's slow compared to the other specs, but at least i'm not getting a carpal tunnel and the performance is solid on any encounter.

  8. #88
    Unless they alter something that makes haste less desirable to gem/reforge into I don't see combat ever reaching the non spammy gameplay.

    Secretly hoping for a mastery change for combat something like:
    - Main gauche to passive with fixed % trigger chance (much like old sword specialization)
    - New Mastery: Armor penetration (which would make haste less desirable with the right tweaking of ArP)
    Last edited by Shinob1; 2013-07-27 at 09:37 AM.

  9. #89
    ArPen mastery won't happen unless they change the formulas of how it worked compared with wotlk, they stated that it was not a good design to have a stat the more you stack the more benefit you get from every point of it, to be clear, at 100 arp an additional point had 2.0 value while at 500 arp a point had 3.0 value and so on...

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    ArPen mastery won't happen unless they change the formulas of how it worked compared with wotlk, they stated that it was not a good design to have a stat the more you stack the more benefit you get from every point of it, to be clear, at 100 arp an additional point had 2.0 value while at 500 arp a point had 3.0 value and so on...
    Pretty easy to design a mastery where it'd not be possible to reach wotlk levels. Even in highest tier gear with everything reforged and everything socketed mastery you can't really beach anything too far down. Like You wouldn't be going past 100% arp like they used to do.

    But, Blizz has stated that they want combat to feel the "spammy" spec so really that's the design they're going after just failing miserably atm.

    What would be nice would be if there was a haste cap to shoot for with combat. Like you aim for 30% haste and up til then haste is awesome and the Jesus stat but once you hit the haste cap you'd want to go for mastery or crit or whatever they design to be the next best stat. Hell blizz could even implement that now where up until a certain mastery it scales really well but then after a certain percentage it just scales horribly. That would let them balance the class a lot easier since realistically rogues wouldn't be getting insane regen and being ridiculous under cool downs. It would still give rogues the feeling of getting more powerful from hit max level in greens to full epics you'd get that feeling of achieving that tier (similar to how healers get when they hit a certain spirit mark) and your game play smooths out. After that you could start buffing secondary stats to raise your dps.

    Personally I don't think the whole 1 secondary stat being just so amazing that you all but ignore the rest is a good design. Fury warriors would reforge every damn stat they had to crit if they could. Assassination (arguably) stacks crazy mastery and combat gets to a point where they don't even gem agi anymore aside from set bonuses and just gem pure haste. Creates a problem of certain things getting out of hand aka combat's current situation. Haste is just too good for combat and with the rppm items is even better.

    At least with casters they know that if they go past a certain haste level either they cap their GCD and then have down time just sitting there or with dot/hot classes they have certain haste tiers where it squeezes in an extra tick but between levels the haste is worthless. With all the bonuses rogues get with haste they're technically running into a similar problem but sadly it actually doesn't matter and rogues just keep on stacking.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinob1 View Post
    Unless they alter something that makes haste less desirable to gem/reforge into I don't see combat ever reaching the non spammy gameplay.

    Secretly hoping for a mastery change for combat something like:
    - Main gauche to passive with fixed % trigger chance (much like old sword specialization)
    - New Mastery: Armor penetration (which would make haste less desirable with the right tweaking of ArP)
    Replacing one passive mastery with another passive mastery? Arpen really wasn't an interesting stat for most players, yes players stacked it but did having 50% arpen vs. 75% arpen make any difference to how you played? Nope.

    Setting aside the question of whether arpen was "too mathy" arpen was boring because for all intents and purposes it was another form of attack power with some wonky scaling properties.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  12. #92
    The biggest problem for Combat is that Assassination is so extremely easy, especially with the T15 2PC bonus, where you are having a much higher envenom buff uptime. It's the same like in Cata, where every Assassination player who tries out Combat says it's so fast and they don't play it properly. It's the same in the other direction, every combat player says Assassination is plain boring, because it's so slow.

    It's so much easier to learn Assassination, although there are no real good guides for Assassination. Every guide focus on listing Best In Slot List and cover the common stuff but no guide really tries to explain Energy Pooling, maximize styles during Envenom buff uptime or delay blindside procs.

    Statistically I saw that almost 97% of the rogue players are playing Assassination: Not because Combat is bad but because Assassination is much more easier to learn and play. If you can handle the basic movement you are always doing decent dps with Assassination.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    Replacing one passive mastery with another passive mastery? Arpen really wasn't an interesting stat for most players, yes players stacked it but did having 50% arpen vs. 75% arpen make any difference to how you played? Nope.

    Setting aside the question of whether arpen was "too mathy" arpen was boring because for all intents and purposes it was another form of attack power with some wonky scaling properties.
    The point of the arpen mastery is that it would provide a reason to gem/reforge for something other than haste. Haste is just plain too good as combat right now.

    Honestly, if they made restless blades (or whatever it's called) a mastery to scale off CPs, it would go a long way. With X mastery, the CDs go down by Y extra.

  14. #94
    Well, armor pen had some problems.

    The biggest one was that it was increasing returns, up until a hard cap.


    What I liked about it was that it allowed us to get around one of the bigger issues that the spec has- armor. Back when more classes and specs had to worry about armor, I felt better about it, but now combat kind of is the last guy standing.

    An armor pen mastery would either:
    > Suffer from the same strange returns.
    > Be normalized and therefore really be indistinguishable from agility


    The problem with combat's mastery isn't just that it's passive- it's passive, and it is single target (buffed by blade flurry). It also grants extra attacks which can proc energy which really means it is the same thing as another version of haste, except one that isn't that great.

    I think that's poor.


    I think combat's mastery could be something like:


    > Reduced Cooldown on AR, Blades, Spree, Sprint, Vanish, Redirect (probably want to kill restless blades off if you go here)

    > Increased chance to proc a combo point on sinister striking a revealed target

    > Increased duration of AR and Blades

    > Increased critical strike damage (I know we'd NEVER get surge, but this would be totally sweet)

    > Instead of a chance to mirror shitty white swings, a chance to mirror YELLOW attacks.





    Armor pen would actually be fine too, but in pve it would be very boring and in pvp it would be stacktastic or shit.





    A simpler change would be to simply make revealing strike up the critical strike damage bonus of everything. You'd want to balance the spec appropriately, but a larger critical strike bonus would make crit rating the best stat to stack. That would be pretty sweet.

  15. #95
    Just felt like dropping by and post this here link:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ryaan/advanced

    One of the best rogues in the world as of now (PvE) - Combat spec'd
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullmaster View Post
    When I want to radiate manhood I stand with my crotch in the microwave for 5 minutes, walk out of the house naked and start blasting people with green rays of what can only be described as the human version of Hyper Beam.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspir3 View Post
    Just felt like dropping by and post this here link:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ryaan/advanced

    One of the best rogues in the world as of now (PvE) - Combat spec'd
    People sometimes try out other specs for the heck of it during farm. When you've been farming the same bosses for two months, you've got to do something to keep yourself interested.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    People sometimes try out other specs for the heck of it during farm. When you've been farming the same bosses for two months, you've got to do something to keep yourself interested.
    His latest log is Assassination.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    People sometimes try out other specs for the heck of it during farm. When you've been farming the same bosses for two months, you've got to do something to keep yourself interested.
    yep thats what my fellow rogue in my current guild is doing he played SUB on tortos hc just for the lolz well he wasn't pulling the same numbers as me like 30-40k less but he was over 200k dps
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspir3 View Post
    Just felt like dropping by and post this here link:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ryaan/advanced

    One of the best rogues in the world as of now (PvE) - Combat spec'd

    This has no relevance whatsoever. Anyone can log off in a spec. What did he play on progression? If it was combat, what were his available weapon choices?

    The fact of the matter is, combat is behind assassination, and generally requires less effort to get the results. The nerfing of blade flurry removed the big situational selling point of the spec, and the current setup makes it a mile of button for a yard of dps.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspir3 View Post
    Just felt like dropping by and post this here link:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ryaan/advanced

    One of the best rogues in the world as of now (PvE) - Combat spec'd

    I think it's mostly because of the heroic thunderforged main hand. Combat nd Assa are very near in terms of damage - having a better weapon for one of the specs can make a difference.

    Also coping with the "hell i've ToT on farm by weeks, let's try playing it differently".

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