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  1. #1

    Exclamation Braindance: Small essay on why making the game easier is wrong

    POST from Braindance:


    I ain't gonna argue for 2 reasons:

    1) Half the people asking for it started playing in either wrath or cata and simply found the game the way it is right now. The other half are simply old dogs that can't look further than their own micro-society in the game and only care for the short term profit
    2) “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen Covey

    I am only gonna give a few small paragraphs to describe why I think this would be bad for the game (I would need 3-4 pages for a complete explanation)

    You are used to the instant gratification and immediate rewards of the current day. Play 2 bgs get 1 item. Play 10 games get cap. Hit 90 be half epic with 2 hours played. Of course people like me are to blame for that; the older generation of players that lobbied for such changes to make the game easier, without realizing that we didn't play this game because it was easy, but because of the sense of achievement after grinding bgs or mobs or instances for countless of hours just to get 1 item.

    There was an era (and a very long one that spanned for 4-5 years), where getting gear was such a huge pain, most current players would quit in the first 2 days. And yet, it was the time when WoW was at its peak. The decline started with the advent of wrath that made the game more socialist and open to anyone, and from there it was downhill. Easy raids, readily acquired gear, fewer (and faster) wins required to cap, fewer bgs won required for the same amount of honor, LFR and the list goes on. WoW lost the bulk of subscriptions, neither from the top players nor from the casuals. It lost subscriptions from the middle class; people that played the game for 3-4 hours a day, trying to get better gear, or rating. People that were the backbone of the 25 men guilds that cleared 60/70% of the current content at each patch. The same people floating around 1800-2000 rating.

    The old game design gave those people the illusion that they were better than the casuals, and at the same time, the hope that after a lot of effort they could be like the "better" players (gladiators, world first guilds). The huge grinds of the old days instilled to the middle class the notion of rewards through hard work. WotlK created a huge gap, since less and less work was required for equal or better rewards. Gradually, those players lost their carrot; with a few bgs they could get full gear; with easier raids they could get any item they wanted with just 1 or 2 wipes. Collective and individual effort requirements became smaller and smaller, leaving the middle class with nothing to do but to log for a couple of hours every week to keep their shinny armor even shinier. Their interested slowly abated and waned until they decided they should move to a different game or go on with their lives.

    That is the true reason that WoW is losing subs. Not because of balance issues that always existed and were even more accentuated (every time I see someone mention it as a reason for people quitting I simply smile). It's precisely because of this middle class that got fed up with their achievements being handed to the casuals. The middle class that witnessed the gap between top players and them widen more and more (due to button bloat, unbreachable pvp and pve cliques), month by month, until they gave up. The people that got sick of WoW turning into something completely different from what it used to be.

    To those unsung heroes that quit the game because they were forsaken by the developpers; to those shinning knights that paved the halls of UBRS and Karazan with their skeletons and rare quality armor; to the countless soldiers that provided fast queues in BC and early Wrath trying to prove themselves; to the biggest fans of the repair vendor. I salute you.

    You will never be forgotten.

    Edit: And a fitting song in memoriam



    Original source:
    http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23...0#entry3916627

  2. #2
    If you think the game is easier now, you're an idiot.

    I label you: Braindunce.

    Flaming is not tolerated here
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-07-22 at 07:22 PM.

  3. #3
    Lots of assumptions of correlation and causation. Does that mean that you also think global warming was caused by lack of pirates?

    There are lots of ways that anyone can skew the interpretation of data to state how making the game easier has actually made the game better, and the sub decline would have been much worse if they kept the old mantra. Does that make them right?

  4. #4
    chrt, this is not my post.

    Personally, I don't play MOP, but when I played month ago it was easy.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoon View Post
    Personally, I don't play MOP, but when I played month ago it was easy.
    You chose to play the easy parts. Did you try out heroic scenarios when you weren't overgearing them? Heroic raids? Challenge modes and go for gold timers? Rare-hunting (solo)? There is challenge and difficulty to be found in MoP.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoon View Post
    chrt, this is not my post.

    Personally, I don't play MOP, but when I played month ago it was easy.
    The game has never been difficult at its core. Merely inconvenient.

    And the hardest raid encounters are leaps and bounds more difficult than anything EVER seen in Vanilla or Burning Crusade.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoon View Post
    chrt, this is not my post.

    Personally, I don't play MOP, but when I played month ago it was easy.
    So, why did you post this, if for no other reason than copyright violation?

    Do you agree with it? Disagree? Posted it just to stir shit up? What is someone supposed to say to you now?

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    I remember when they made heroics harder in Cata, yeah that went SUPER well for them. MGV was the hardest opening raid we have had in awhile, Heroic Scenarios are a pain at lower gear levels, Challenge Modes, etc. Raids are overall harder than they have ever been. Leveling was also not even that easy at times (depends on your class though).

    MoP is not an easy expansion. Not saying it is the hardest ever, but saying it is easy and that is why it is failing is just a wrong point.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    You chose to play the easy parts. Did you try out heroic scenarios when you weren't overgearing them? Heroic raids? Challenge modes and go for gold timers? Rare-hunting (solo)? There is challenge and difficulty to be found in MoP.

    This.

    The biggest difference in the game now, as compared to the "good old days of yore (of space)," is the choices available to the player re: game difficulty.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Gimlix's Avatar
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    People who casually play will only experience the standard stuff and those are indeed not challenging for most of the people that play World of Warcraft.
    But those who take their time in the game notice that there is hard stuff out there, Heroic Raiding isn't a facepalm at all.

    That's why WoW is so great, you got Gameplay for Casuals and for Hardcores.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoon View Post
    POST from Braindance:


    I ain't gonna argue for 2 reasons:

    1) Half the people asking for it started playing in either wrath or cata and simply found the game the way it is right now. The other half are simply old dogs that can't look further than their own micro-society in the game and only care for the short term profit
    2) “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen Covey

    I am only gonna give a few small paragraphs to describe why I think this would be bad for the game (I would need 3-4 pages for a complete explanation)

    You are used to the instant gratification and immediate rewards of the current day. Play 2 bgs get 1 item. Play 10 games get cap. Hit 90 be half epic with 2 hours played. Of course people like me are to blame for that; the older generation of players that lobbied for such changes to make the game easier, without realizing that we didn't play this game because it was easy, but because of the sense of achievement after grinding bgs or mobs or instances for countless of hours just to get 1 item.

    There was an era (and a very long one that spanned for 4-5 years), where getting gear was such a huge pain, most current players would quit in the first 2 days. And yet, it was the time when WoW was at its peak. The decline started with the advent of wrath that made the game more socialist and open to anyone, and from there it was downhill. Easy raids, readily acquired gear, fewer (and faster) wins required to cap, fewer bgs won required for the same amount of honor, LFR and the list goes on. WoW lost the bulk of subscriptions, neither from the top players nor from the casuals. It lost subscriptions from the middle class; people that played the game for 3-4 hours a day, trying to get better gear, or rating. People that were the backbone of the 25 men guilds that cleared 60/70% of the current content at each patch. The same people floating around 1800-2000 rating.

    The old game design gave those people the illusion that they were better than the casuals, and at the same time, the hope that after a lot of effort they could be like the "better" players (gladiators, world first guilds). The huge grinds of the old days instilled to the middle class the notion of rewards through hard work. WotlK created a huge gap, since less and less work was required for equal or better rewards. Gradually, those players lost their carrot; with a few bgs they could get full gear; with easier raids they could get any item they wanted with just 1 or 2 wipes. Collective and individual effort requirements became smaller and smaller, leaving the middle class with nothing to do but to log for a couple of hours every week to keep their shinny armor even shinier. Their interested slowly abated and waned until they decided they should move to a different game or go on with their lives.

    That is the true reason that WoW is losing subs. Not because of balance issues that always existed and were even more accentuated (every time I see someone mention it as a reason for people quitting I simply smile). It's precisely because of this middle class that got fed up with their achievements being handed to the casuals. The middle class that witnessed the gap between top players and them widen more and more (due to button bloat, unbreachable pvp and pve cliques), month by month, until they gave up. The people that got sick of WoW turning into something completely different from what it used to be.

    To those unsung heroes that quit the game because they were forsaken by the developpers; to those shinning knights that paved the halls of UBRS and Karazan with their skeletons and rare quality armor; to the countless soldiers that provided fast queues in BC and early Wrath trying to prove themselves; to the biggest fans of the repair vendor. I salute you.

    You will never be forgotten.

    Edit: And a fitting song in memoriam



    Original source:
    http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23...0#entry3916627

    I took the time to read your entire post, I do not have the same opinion as to why the exodus took place. As I remember it the exodus happened during the start of cata, class redesign and sweeping changes to healing as well as people having to know their toon (how to CC , interrupt and dispel) removed a lot of the middles class as you put it.

    I looked at it like this, that exodus got rid of a large amount of poor players, the ones that had been carried in 40 mans because all they had to do was push 3 buttons and manage not to die. Cata did what I think blizzard set out to accomplish, it required players to know the class and their rolls, that was a large problem for some and they left the game. This change was a direct answer from blizzard to the player base. They gave us what we asked for, we said we wanted raiders that new their class inside out, had a team mentality (Shamans on interrupt duity at the cost of dpsing) and could run with the big dogs. Only problem was there were a lot of little pups barking like big dogs, but that got sorted out fast enough. They got put on the deck where they belonged, poor little dogs.

    So where you are entitled to your opinion so I am. They old days of grinding mats for hours just to be to raid, changing you professions because it gave you a slightly better advantage, being a battery for other players or totem dancing, being the interrupt dummy or going 2 months without getting any loot because RNG is a heartless bitch do not bring back found memories to me. If it does for you, you are welcome to them.

    One other thing, I personal find the video you attached to this post offensive, I think you are trying to equate the lost of those men to the loss of players, it is a poor and tasteless parallel. Remember bub that it’s not just a movie, it happened in real life and some of us that served during that time take it personal when that movie is treated in a way that disrespects our brothers. Post a sound clip if you would like but please do not disrespect these mens memories be trivializing what they gave.

  12. #12
    Misguided observations of the WoW community, chapter 1:

    1) "The game was never difficult, just tedious". Tasks that require more effort ARE, by textbook definition, more difficult. If you don't believe me, feel free to look the word up yourself. Tasks that require more effort are also inherently more rewarding, because that is how humans are wired. Leveling enchanting in this game feels like much more of an accomplishment than leveling mining. And a sense of accomplishment is a very fundamental game element, one that is critical in an MMO. It's why your normal or heroic kills feel better than LFR ones. It's why getting 2k arena rating feels better than winning random BG's.

    2) "If you haven't done the hard stuff, you can't say the game is easy". I most certainly can. The existence of hard things to do, actually, rarely has an overall impact on the overall view of a video game's difficulty, especially when those harder modes aren't elemental to progress in the game itself.. Demon Souls is considered a pretty hard game primarily because there's no difficulty settings... everyone has to get through the same things. Diablo 3 is not considered a difficult game, despite the existence of its hardcore mode, which (last I knew) not a whole lot of people had beaten.

    3) "Quality of Life". This phrase must be like kryptonite to a game designer, especially when the playerbase tends to use it for everything and anything that accelerates gameplay. The vast majority of changes made to this game and defined as QoL are, in fact, nothing more than dumbing down, or removal of a decision process on the part of the player.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  13. #13
    There are two bits in the OP i can't quite fit together though:
    1: Most current players would quit the game as it was back in BC
    2: The game was at its peak in BC

    So we now have... lesser players? Not according to Blizz anyway, if WoW is now so bad (apparently), why are all current MMo's following in its footsteps then?

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Misguided observations of the WoW community, chapter 1:

    1) "The game was never difficult, just tedious". Tasks that require more effort ARE, by textbook definition, more difficult. If you don't believe me, feel free to look the word up yourself. Tasks that require more effort are also inherently more rewarding, because that is how humans are wired. Leveling enchanting in this game feels like much more of an accomplishment than leveling mining. And a sense of accomplishment is a very fundamental game element, one that is critical in an MMO. It's why your normal or heroic kills feel better than LFR ones. It's why getting 2k arena rating feels better than winning random BG's.
    They never required more effort. They just took freakin forever. Rep grinds are an example, even of today's rep grinds: repeat the same set of quests again and again and again in a mind-numbing haze. That's not effort. Effort would be blowing all cooldowns and executing a perfect rotation to just kill that rare mob for a quest a second before you die, omg omg omg I did it!

    That's effort. Doing dailies to get 50 charms is not effort, it's just time. Running challenge modes over and over, trying to get that last piece of cosmetic gear with your team, perfecting your teamwork and your execution bit by bit is effort.

  15. #15
    Blademaster Shabutie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoon View Post
    You are used to the instant gratification and immediate rewards of the current day. Play 2 bgs get 1 item. Play 10 games get cap. Hit 90 be half epic with 2 hours played. Of course people like me are to blame for that; the older generation of players that lobbied for such changes to make the game easier, without realizing that we didn't play this game because it was easy, but because of the sense of achievement after grinding bgs or mobs or instances for countless of hours just to get 1 item.
    Nope, it is a game. Who plays a game to feel some sort of achievement? I personally play a game for fun, I mainly play PVP and while I don't play super competitively, I do enjoy good competition. So the sooner I am on an even playing field with equal gear, the better.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    2) "If you haven't done the hard stuff, you can't say the game is easy". I most certainly can. The existence of hard things to do, actually, rarely has an overall impact on the overall view of a video game's difficulty, especially when those harder modes aren't elemental to progress in the game itself..
    The problem with your view is that it's subjective. You base difficulty on people's individual description of "progression". If someone feels that hitting level 90 is all the progression they want, then raid difficulty doesn't mean anything, and leveling difficulty means everything. If someone feels that completing raids at the highest level while the content is still fresh is "progression", then heroic raid difficulty means everything and leveling difficulty means nothing.

    So your "misguided observation" is really just "subjective feelings". You are entitled to yours, and others are entitled to theirs. Neither is right or wrong.

    However, stating that a game offer "no challenge" when you don't even do the challenging stuff in the game (i.e. you choose to ignore it), is a tad hypocritical. The game offers plenty of challenge. You just choose to skip the challenging stuff. It's like someone playing Doom on god-mode, and complaining that it's too easy.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Misguided observations of the WoW community, chapter 1:

    1) "The game was never difficult, just tedious". Tasks that require more effort ARE, by textbook definition, more difficult. If you don't believe me, feel free to look the word up yourself.
    "Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
    Characterized by or causing hardships or problems."

    Having to gather 100 of an item, instead of 10 of an item, doesn't make that quest 10x more difficult. The understanding and skill required are EXACTLY THE SAME as the previous amount. This extends to fight mechanics that get reused on a single boss fight. While they can apply added pressure (or more likely have a painfully bad RNG of coinciding with something else), they are generally no different to understand or succeed at then they were the first time they appeared.

    2) "If you haven't done the hard stuff, you can't say the game is easy". I most certainly can.
    And you can claim that the World Series is easy based on the vast knowledge you gained from your Little League games, and I'm sure the Red Sox are waiting on your input.

    3) "Quality of Life". This phrase must be like kryptonite to a game designer, especially when the playerbase tends to use it for everything and anything that accelerates gameplay. The vast majority of changes made to this game and defined as QoL are, in fact, nothing more than dumbing down, or removal of a decision process on the part of the player.
    "Quality of Life" usually refers to removing the 'tedious' aspects of the gameplay, such as NOT having to carry 6 stacks of candles on raid night, and having to run out to buy up more midway thru the raid while everyone else waited on you. There was never any particular decision process involved to buying candles, and it certainly didn't open the game up to a 'dumber audience', but it did cut down on the 'background grinds' that interfered with actual GAMEPLAY.

    MMO's are built off of 'grinds', not just experience and improving gear... but off of repeated actions that may only take a few seconds or minutes of your time... but are REPEATED many many times while you try to get to the 'meat' of the game. Whether thats PvP or PvE. Its the sidedishes and appetizers you fill up on, cuz you cant afford to fill up on lobster & caviar. Of course, maybe as time goes by, you CAN afford to have the 'good stuff' more often, so you can cut back on the macaroni & ramen a little. This is exactly what happens with 'quality of life' changes.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
    Nope, it is a game. Who plays a game to feel some sort of achievement? I personally play a game for fun, I mainly play PVP and while I don't play super competitively, I do enjoy good competition. So the sooner I am on an even playing field with equal gear, the better.
    You do. Unless you enjoy losing matches just as much as winning them.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You do. Unless you enjoy losing matches just as much as winning them.
    WoW is a competitive game only if you play it competitively. It's perfectly enjoyable as a cooperative, non-competitive game. If you step back a bit you will see that there is very little competition built into WoW, other than ranked PvP. This whole guild/progression ranking thing, that's something players grafted onto the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    MMO's are built off of 'grinds', not just experience and improving gear... but off of repeated actions that may only take a few seconds or minutes of your time... but are REPEATED many many times while you try to get to the 'meat' of the game. Whether thats PvP or PvE. Its the sidedishes and appetizers you fill up on, cuz you cant afford to fill up on lobster & caviar. Of course, maybe as time goes by, you CAN afford to have the 'good stuff' more often, so you can cut back on the macaroni & ramen a little. This is exactly what happens with 'quality of life' changes.
    That's a very narrow and old fashioned and, basically, incorrect view of what an MMO is.

    It's an unimaginative, dead view of what an MMO is.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    They never required more effort. They just took freakin forever. Rep grinds are an example, even of today's rep grinds: repeat the same set of quests again and again and again in a mind-numbing haze. That's not effort. Effort would be blowing all cooldowns and executing a perfect rotation to just kill that rare mob for a quest a second before you die, omg omg omg I did it!

    That's effort. Doing dailies to get 50 charms is not effort, it's just time. Running challenge modes over and over, trying to get that last piece of cosmetic gear with your team, perfecting your teamwork and your execution bit by bit is effort.
    How is more time not more effort? Doing dailies for 50 charms also takes much less time than finishing challenge modes.
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