Page 33 of 43 FirstFirst ...
23
31
32
33
34
35
... LastLast
  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    I don't know about everyone else, but I hated the 4.3 heroic dungeons. They were way too easy and I found them really boring. The only reason I didn't cancel my subscription after 4.3 was the annual pass and because I was looking forward to Diablo III.

    I tanked them a number of times -- as blood DK -- in DPS gear and got kicked only once, and not because I was taking too much damage or because I was making the healer's life harder, but because one of the DPS said it was inappropriate for me to be tanking in DPS gear (my tanking gear was gathering dust in the bank). And he only noticed I was in DPS gear because of my DPS. Before I was kicked I asked the healer if I was taking too much damage he said no and that he didn't even notice I was in DPS gear.
    Takes a majority to vote kick you, so likely the healer thought you were taking too much damage and didn't say anything, otherwise if he/she was OK with it they would have spoken up. I tell the grp I'm ok with it when healing because I could care less what the tank is wearing as a heals unless the tank is really just trolling with his bad tanking, and because my raid gear carries everything.

    Tanks in dps specs pisses me off though, even in low level dungeons. Just pay the gold for dual spec or queue in the correct spec, you do more damage in tanking specs anyway and you'll actually learn how to tank instead of just cheesing it with your crappy ret/whatever spec. It's the principle of the thing...

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I didn't read the original statement, I just read the post of the person that said that clearing all heroics in TBC in 6 hours was impossible. So I assumed BiS Sunwell gear.
    Even then I would call it impossible. I had a geared Prot warrior (and a rerolled ele shaman) and believe me, you do not do those dungeons in 24mins on average (or seriously unlikely)

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinewrath View Post
    The heroics were mainly not LFD friendly I know I got alot more clears in a guild group than solo cue and even in guild group it was not a walk in the park
    It helped a lot if you leveled ahead of the curve, since a different type of person to be blunt about it generally had the initiative.

    I've argued before that the simplest way to deal with puggers screwing up mechanics would be DPS losses, and obnoxious spell effects, instead of dumping the load on a pug healer.
    I am not a racist, I am a melting pot of friendship
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Bows were made for tools of war. They go in the same pot as guns. There is ZERO reason to own a bow in 2014. Tools of war have no place in civilian homes.
    A PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY FREE OF HATE

    VANTUCKY PRIDE WORLD WIDE

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    What always threw me off was how Ghostcrawler said Heroics were supposed to be hard, and the next day we had nerfs across the board
    That's what happens when stupid and wrong ideas about game design collide with actual customer response.

    Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Tanks in dps specs pisses me off though, even in low level dungeons. Just pay the gold for dual spec or queue in the correct spec, you do more damage in tanking specs anyway and you'll actually learn how to tank instead of just cheesing it with your crappy ret/whatever spec. It's the principle of the thing...
    Totally agreed! Especially when shield slam still scaled with Block Value . There were times tho, were you had to exchange gear to dps slots once you outgeared the instance, so that you could actually build aggro. Low level dungeons always have been sketchy at best tho, because you barely got enough rage to be able to tank properly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's what happens when stupid and wrong ideas about game design collide with actual customer response.

    Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.
    I'd like to know how many of those people that actively played during Vanilla/TBC are still playing and what has been the fluctuation ever since. I slightly remember, that there have been like 40m people been subscribed or so (none knows how many of those have been bots tho)

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Xezz View Post
    Even then I would call it impossible. I had a geared Prot warrior (and a rerolled ele shaman) and believe me, you do not do those dungeons in 24mins on average (or seriously unlikely)
    You gotta understand, I'm not talking about an average group of players. I'm talking about top raiders, all in full BiS gear, with a fully optimized group comp, using invisibility potions on an absolutely flawless run with no mistakes.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    You gotta understand, I'm not talking about an average group of players. I'm talking about top raiders, all in full BiS gear, with a fully optimized group comp, using invisibility potions on an absolutely flawless run with no mistakes.
    I totally get that and since I had the gear (and maybe the ability, not me to judge) back then, I'm confident to say that it was not possible. Especially considering the original statement, but even without that. When sunwell was still current (and not the walk-through it was after 4.0), there is no way you could have cleared each dungeon in 24 minutes

    Edit: Go into any of those longer dungeons now and walk through them and look at the time it takes. I'd guess it takes you already close to 10 minutes just to run to mumur without fighting anything. (But we are clearly getting off-topic here)
    Last edited by Xezz; 2013-07-24 at 09:37 PM.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    What always threw me off was how Ghostcrawler said Heroics were supposed to be hard, and the next day we had nerfs across the board
    That got me too, I was happy when he said there would be no nerfs because I really enjoyed the content.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Alconds View Post
    That got me too, I was happy when he said there would be no nerfs because I really enjoyed the content.
    Oh I think I remember that quote, if anyone could dig that out that'd be swell!



    But here is a real question to all those saying it was too hard:
    Was it un-doable hard or was it just quite challenging. If you say un-doable did you actually farm non heroic 85 dungeons or jump into it right away? Do not get your views overshadowed by bad players, rather see the over all experience. (Because I do not count un-enchanted, un-gemmed, itemlevel cheaters as people that should be in instances "at the start")

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Takes a majority to vote kick you, so likely the healer thought you were taking too much damage and didn't say anything, otherwise if he/she was OK with it they would have spoken up. I tell the grp I'm ok with it when healing because I could care less what the tank is wearing as a heals unless the tank is really just trolling with his bad tanking, and because my raid gear carries everything.

    Tanks in dps specs pisses me off though, even in low level dungeons. Just pay the gold for dual spec or queue in the correct spec, you do more damage in tanking specs anyway and you'll actually learn how to tank instead of just cheesing it with your crappy ret/whatever spec. It's the principle of the thing...
    I was watching her mana the entire time and she did not have to drink once. After killing the second boss(End of time) the DPS probably saw that I was ahead of him on DPS and asked me to put my tanking gear on. At that point I asked the healer if she had had any difficulties healing me at any point and she said no, but she also asked me to put my tanking gear on. I told them I wasn't going to get my tanking gear from the bank because my bags were full and they kicked me.

    Maybe she was afraid we'd wipe on the next boss or something, I don't know. Not everyone need to vote for the kick to go through, though. Only three votes are required in a 5man, two yes votes plus the vote from the player who started the votekick. I've seen plenty of kicks go through without my help.

    They were all from the same guild, so I knew the healer wasn't going to side with me anyway. I just hoped they wouldn't go as far as kicking me. I probably sounded like a jerk when I refused to put my tanking gear on. I honestly don't remember. It was the first time I was kicked in a long time too, and I had done those dungeons as tank in DPS gear many times before.
    Last edited by El_Diabl0; 2013-07-24 at 10:03 PM.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's what happens when stupid and wrong ideas about game design collide with actual customer response.

    Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.
    I'm sure this is going to come across as p3wpy, but it's not intended to be; I'm just genuinely curious:

    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?

    I ask because 4.0 might've been the most fun I've had in the game. I've only played since 2.3, so my experience is somewhat limited, but I really enjoyed instances when Cata dropped.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.
    The dissonance between what actually happens and what they say is always rather odd to me.
    Cough, windwalker healing in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Alconds View Post
    That got me too, I was happy when he said there would be no nerfs because I really enjoyed the content.
    Honestly I'm ambivalent about it, because I was on a dead realm for a shit guild. So I had to pug it, and aside from the first week or two where they were actually pretty good, it was hellish afterwards trying to pug it.

    I more or less missed it when the going was good.
    I am not a racist, I am a melting pot of friendship
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Bows were made for tools of war. They go in the same pot as guns. There is ZERO reason to own a bow in 2014. Tools of war have no place in civilian homes.
    A PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY FREE OF HATE

    VANTUCKY PRIDE WORLD WIDE

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?
    It was a gross misreading of the overall preferences and capabilities of their customer base. Of course there were individuals who liked it; the error was in bad marketing, assuming individuals like yourself were more typical than you actually are.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?
    I posted many of them earlier. They were the ones that either enabled a single player to derail an entire fight or required an unreasonable level of cooperation between 5 complete strangers. Note that this list isn't by any means complete, but hopefully you get the picture:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    • Corborus's crystals had to be AoEed before they could activate or you could be they would kill someone.
    • If you stood in shadows while fighting Slabhide you were impaled and killed. If you stood in the lava pools it was death too.
    • Tank had to face Ozruk away from the group. Ranged DPS had to reflect a DoT onto themselves to avoid paralyzation. Melee DPS had to run out of his AoE smash attack.
    • If you didn't dodge Azil's boulders and keep a gravity well between you and the adds you would pretty much fail.
    • If players didn't dodge Umbriss's blitz and ground siege they died.
    • Throngus had 3 different mechanics that the tank had to be aware of. The entire group had to stay out of his lava pools and behind his shield while he was spewing fire.
    • Dragha's minion had to be DPSed down and kited because if it reached its target it blew up and killed anyone in the area. His dragon, Valiona, was also a raid boss and featured the same flame mechanic as in the raid.
    • Erudax's minions had to be slowed and killed before they reached the eggs or they would heal him and spawn a bunch of fireball-spewing whelps. He also periodically cast a shadow gale that killed anyone who wasn't standing in its eye.
    • If Romogg's chains weren't DPSed down in time it was a wipe.
    • Three players had to manage the beams on Corla
    • The tank had to keep Steelbender in the fire or he wasn't going to go down.
    • Beauty's children had to be CCed, except for Runty, who had to remain completely untouched. This was hard to manage because she would periodically fear everyone so if you didn't have a shaman who knew how to use their anti-fear totem you were hosed.
    • If Obsidius's twilight corruption wasn't dispelled it was pretty much a wipe.

    Need I go on? Mechanics that kill players who aren't paying attention are OK as long as the other players can power through. However, when the fight is tuned in a way that every single player is needed you're basically punishing those players who are paying attention because someone in their group happens to lack skill and/or experience. No wonder there's so much hostility towards "bad" players. MoP went the other extreme. Mechanics don't kill people, and even if someone does manage to get themselves killed it's OK because each "Heroic" dungeon can practically be soloed.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I posted many of them earlier. They were the ones that either enabled a single player to derail an entire fight or required an unreasonable level of cooperation between 5 complete strangers. Note that this list isn't by any means complete, but hopefully you get the picture:
    Most of those aren't really that far out there. I can get toning down stuff like "dispel this or wipe", but "point cleaving boss away from everyone else" is a pretty low tier mechanic.
    I am not a racist, I am a melting pot of friendship
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Bows were made for tools of war. They go in the same pot as guns. There is ZERO reason to own a bow in 2014. Tools of war have no place in civilian homes.
    A PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY FREE OF HATE

    VANTUCKY PRIDE WORLD WIDE

  16. #656
    Cata Heroics were glorious! Remember when you could actually wipe in LFD? God forbid you had to type out a few sentences to explain how to do the fight to your teammates.

    Now we get MoP "Heroics" where you can mindlessly solo as a tank.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    I'm sure this is going to come across as p3wpy, but it's not intended to be; I'm just genuinely curious:

    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?

    I ask because 4.0 might've been the most fun I've had in the game. I've only played since 2.3, so my experience is somewhat limited, but I really enjoyed instances when Cata dropped.
    There was a massive shift between (vanilla)/TBC to Wotlk, and there seemed to have been a massive uproar about diffculty during wotlk. Now the difficulty change from wotlk to cata reassembled more the way how tbc dungeons were. Added to that, there was the merge of 10 and 25 mans in difficulty while during vanilla and tbc those were split. So they had a major swing in a direction without giving anything to the *majority* of their customers after they made everything easy.

    I'm not sure what side Osmeric takes (tell me when I'm wrong), but I guess he is more of the opinion that the shift to hard was bad. While I would be of the opinion, that giving rewards way higher than the level of difficulty was wrong

    I would have fired GC myself too tho!

  18. #658
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,523
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I posted many of them earlier. They were the ones that either enabled a single player to derail an entire fight or required an unreasonable level of cooperation between 5 complete strangers.
    some of those are just a simple "dont stand in stupids"
    If a player cant manage that they maybe kinda deserved to die...........
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  19. #659
    Someone should tell Ghostcrawler on twitter that by trying to make every gear upgrade meaningful, they're making content from previous patches not worth running and it limits the amount of relevant content that's available to players. ilevel inflation is bad for business! Blizzard's businesses.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Most of those aren't really that far out there. I can get toning down stuff like "dispel this or wipe", but "point cleaving boss away from everyone else" is a pretty low tier mechanic.
    It's still really frustrating to attempt heal through when 90% of the existing tanks in LFD have never dealt with it before. First you have to spend 10 minutes convincing your tank that he's doing it wrong. If he hasn't rage quit by then he then spends another 15 minutes trying to master it. If he still hasn't mastered it he'll probably rage quit and then it's back in the queue for another 20 minutes waiting on a new tank. Once the tank gets it right remember that this is combined with the other mechanic where you have to convince everyone to DoT Ozruk at the exact moment in order to get it reflected onto you so it'll break the paralyzation. Even if all the DPS are doing it correctly you have to remind the good healers to go against their conditioned response of dispelling debuffs and to wait until after the paralyzation. This is not a reasonable expectation of pugs. In my opinion, counter-intuitive mechanics like that should be reserved for raids.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •