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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    thanks for your response.

    Sadly I don't think (Could be wrong) you got the message. The message inherently is: do not go into heroic until you are ready for it! And by the time those 3 months you are talking about were gone, they nerfed the content in this case already. Anyway if they hadn't these players would finally be able to do even more challenging stuff = heroic 5 mans.
    In Cata, delaying going into heroics could actually make things harder. The best players finished gearing up their mains in heroics and moved on to raids, so the quality of the players you ran into in LFD declined with time.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    In Cata, delaying going into heroics could actually make things harder. The best players finished gearing up their mains in heroics and moved on to raids, so the quality of the players you ran into in LFD declined with time.
    repeatedly I have read that very early in cat., LFD's heroics was actually workable in many cases due to the player type who was hitting 85 that fast (folks who knew how to cc, kill order, work in a group, probably quite a % with tbc heroic experience) as well. kind-of a self-selecting mechanism, as the rest of the bell curve gets to 85.

    Obviously blizzard reacted to the initial issues by simply mass-nerfing (I have speculated that the hard-content faction was essentially vanquished there), but I wonder what they would have done if they could have done it over from scratch. I can think of a few different approaches which wouldn't have impacted dev time much vs. what they must have used anyway. (since obviously the whole game is on a budget which strictly limits their ability to produce content or tune varying difficulties more than they already do, based on repeated comments from them).
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  3. #803
    Heroic dungeons don't have to be hard, theres hard content there if you want it, challenge modes and hardcore raids, but dungeons are not required to be hard. At the moment the only requirement is that they give me JP or Valor and do it as quickly as possible so I can get back to doing the things I like to do and if someone with a new character gets their loot faster with less competition because I am there for valor then all the better for everyone in the group.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    At the moment the only requirement is that they give me JP or Valor and do it as quickly as possible so I can get back to doing the things I like to do...
    One vote for vending machine-style content creation. Tally that.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    In Cata, delaying going into heroics could actually make things harder. The best players finished gearing up their mains in heroics and moved on to raids, so the quality of the players you ran into in LFD declined with time.
    True but we're talking about players who felt that cata heroics were difficult. What do you do when you're not quite up to it? Yes you gear up and sort yourself out. I had a blasr with these heroics. Also when pugging. But some people either did not belong there yet due to gear, they did not listen to friendly advice (tactics) or were unable to cc properly. Or all at once. So my advice again is take a step back and go do content where there are still boons to get

  6. #806
    heroic shattered halls was hard

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    Obviously blizzard reacted to the initial issues by simply mass-nerfing (I have speculated that the hard-content faction was essentially vanquished there), but I wonder what they would have done if they could have done it over from scratch. I can think of a few different approaches which wouldn't have impacted dev time much vs. what they must have used anyway. (since obviously the whole game is on a budget which strictly limits their ability to produce content or tune varying difficulties more than they already do, based on repeated comments from them).
    They've never given us the details of the process that led up to Cataclysm. It would still be very interesting to know what constraints and preconceptions led them to that design. That might also tell us what else they might have done instead, if those initial conditions had been tweaked.

    I'm going to be paying close attention to what any of the top WoW devs say after they leave Blizzard. They have their nondisclosure agreements, I'm sure, but those shouldn't last forever.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #808
    Cata heroics at launch were extremely challenging, but in a good way. After a week they nerfed them to the ground, and that's the version most people 'experienced', so yea, GC is accurate when he said they were hard.

    Too bad they nerfed it to cater to the casual crowd that was getting stomped (in early dungeon gear...).

    They actually reminded me of the heroics in TBC, any mistake was a death, and extremely fun to run!

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatryxx View Post
    To be fair, there were plenty of guides readily available for all those dungeons on various websites like WoWhead, WoWpedia etc before inclusion of Dungeon Journal. There really is no excuse for ignorance in WoW when all that you need to know is just a few clicks away. Is it unreasonable to expect people to at LEAST know fights beforehand so they don't have to be hand-held?
    Why is this called ignorance? I never understood it. I call it cheating knowing the fight before doing it. Did you played Warcraft III campains and started to look for guides before even trying ? Stuff like this makes it impossible to even have fun in normal modes.

    I don't think a MMO can exist with so much outside information. It's just wrong on so many levels. It's like playing footbal and knowing where your opponent is gonna pass. What's the point of playing that game? The guy that did the tactic is the one that played the game, not you a simple minded creature the just learned how to read.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Cata heroics at launch were extremely challenging, but in a good way. After a week they nerfed them to the ground,
    What nerf was that? After a week the heroics were still too hard for the tastes/abilities of most players. More nerfing came later, particularly the Luck of the Draw buff.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #811
    High Overlord Eranthe's Avatar
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    they weren't brutally difficult like shattered halls, but they were sufficiently challenging and annoying.

    most of the reason people wiped endlessly in them is because they were spoiled by wrath "heroics" and tried to mass aoe everything and died due to unhealable amounts of damage. instead of adapting and overcoming (cc, some small amount of organization, creative tactics like kiting or offhealing), they went to the forums in droves to have it nerfed down so they mass aoe fests were once again the most effective way to farm pre-raid gear.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    In Cata, delaying going into heroics could actually make things harder. The best players finished gearing up their mains in heroics and moved on to raids, so the quality of the players you ran into in LFD declined with time.
    Not to mention that INSANE idea they made where they put the final three Hour of Twilight dungeons into its own selectable isolated bracket.

    By doing that, not only did players get burnt out of those dungeons after the first 3 days of playing... but it pulled every single well-geared player OUT of the older dungeons - thus reducing the old dungeons back into the launch-day hell grinds.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  13. #813
    Warchief Byniri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Cata heroics at launch were extremely challenging, but in a good way. After a week they nerfed them to the ground, and that's the version most people 'experienced', so yea, GC is accurate when he said they were hard.
    A week?

    The nerfs happened like 3(?) months in.
    PEPE SILVA, PEPE SILVA

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    instead of adapting and overcoming (cc, some small amount of organization, creative tactics like kiting or offhealing), they went to the forums in droves to have it nerfed down so they mass aoe fests were once again the most effective way to farm pre-raid gear.
    The notion that these people stampeded to the forums is obvious nonsense.

    There were net 5000 people quitting the game PER DAY in the first half of 2011. Did you see 5000 new threads each day about anything? Of course you didn't. Forum posters are a VERY tiny minority of all players.

    Most people who had trouble and quit just... quit. They didn't cry or QQ or whine or do any of the other things the hardcores like to disparage them for (as if them doing this would somehow absolve the game designers of responsibility for what the decisions had caused.)

    Difficult heroic 5 mans were not abandoned because of whining or crying. They were abandoned because huge numbers of people quit the game over them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #815
    Less than 5% of the player base posts on the forums.

  16. #816
    I remember doing VP hc the first day when we dinged 85... with leveling gear it was pretty hard, almost like tbc heroics imo. Tho the first boss was weirdly tuned >.< had to come up with a tactic to sacrifice our healer with a soulstone on to regain some mana in the middle of the fight Too bad the people complained so much that they ended up nerfing them :/ Would prevent people from getting burned out so fast if the dungeons lasted for longer like they used to, less spammable as well would be something possitive.
    Nowish <Envy> HC stream -> http://sv.twitch.tv/viss3

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    I remember doing VP hc the first day when we dinged 85... with leveling gear it was pretty hard, almost like tbc heroics imo. Tho the first boss was weirdly tuned >.< had to come up with a tactic to sacrifice our healer with a soulstone on to regain some mana in the middle of the fight Too bad the people complained so much that they ended up nerfing them :/ Would prevent people from getting burned out so fast if the dungeons lasted for longer like they used to, less spammable as well would be something possitive.
    They actually buffed that first boss, IIRC, since there was an unintended way to cheese one of the mechanics.

    I think they also buffed the final boss. The dragon with the wind and tornadoes got nerfed, though.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-07-25 at 05:43 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    I remember doing VP hc the first day when we dinged 85... with leveling gear it was pretty hard, almost like tbc heroics imo. Tho the first boss was weirdly tuned >.< had to come up with a tactic to sacrifice our healer with a soulstone on to regain some mana in the middle of the fight Too bad the people complained so much that they ended up nerfing them :/ Would prevent people from getting burned out so fast if the dungeons lasted for longer like they used to, less spammable as well would be something possitive.
    Bullhooey. You want to see people burn out, put them a seemingly insurmountable challenge and the casuals will fall off in droves. Only the hardcores believe that extra difficulty is the antidote to burnout. Since there are far far far more casuals than hardcores, that approach is wrong from a financial sense for Blizz.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Bullhooey. You want to see people burn out, put them a seemingly insurmountable challenge and the casuals will fall off in droves. Only the hardcores believe that extra difficulty is the antidote to burnout. Since there are far far far more casuals than hardcores, that approach is wrong from a financial sense for Blizz.
    I agree. Those who want harder content have plenty of it in the form of heroic raids. Heroic dungeons used to be goto content for people who wanted an intermediate level of difficulty. Now they've degenerated into easy mode, but in Cataclysm they were far beyond intermediate. I really didn't understand why Blizzard forced casual players to master raid-level mechanics at Cata launch.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Not to mention that INSANE idea they made where they put the final three Hour of Twilight dungeons into its own selectable isolated bracket.

    By doing that, not only did players get burnt out of those dungeons after the first 3 days of playing... but it pulled every single well-geared player OUT of the older dungeons - thus reducing the old dungeons back into the launch-day hell grinds.
    The old dungeons were already nerfed to the ground at that point, so taking out the well-geared players really did not have much impact on the older dungeons. The only impact (imho) was burn out. Same deal with the 4.1 troll dungeons before that.

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