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  1. #801
    Heroic dungeons don't have to be hard, theres hard content there if you want it, challenge modes and hardcore raids, but dungeons are not required to be hard. At the moment the only requirement is that they give me JP or Valor and do it as quickly as possible so I can get back to doing the things I like to do and if someone with a new character gets their loot faster with less competition because I am there for valor then all the better for everyone in the group.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    At the moment the only requirement is that they give me JP or Valor and do it as quickly as possible so I can get back to doing the things I like to do...
    One vote for vending machine-style content creation. Tally that.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    In Cata, delaying going into heroics could actually make things harder. The best players finished gearing up their mains in heroics and moved on to raids, so the quality of the players you ran into in LFD declined with time.
    True but we're talking about players who felt that cata heroics were difficult. What do you do when you're not quite up to it? Yes you gear up and sort yourself out. I had a blasr with these heroics. Also when pugging. But some people either did not belong there yet due to gear, they did not listen to friendly advice (tactics) or were unable to cc properly. Or all at once. So my advice again is take a step back and go do content where there are still boons to get

  4. #804
    heroic shattered halls was hard

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    Obviously blizzard reacted to the initial issues by simply mass-nerfing (I have speculated that the hard-content faction was essentially vanquished there), but I wonder what they would have done if they could have done it over from scratch. I can think of a few different approaches which wouldn't have impacted dev time much vs. what they must have used anyway. (since obviously the whole game is on a budget which strictly limits their ability to produce content or tune varying difficulties more than they already do, based on repeated comments from them).
    They've never given us the details of the process that led up to Cataclysm. It would still be very interesting to know what constraints and preconceptions led them to that design. That might also tell us what else they might have done instead, if those initial conditions had been tweaked.

    I'm going to be paying close attention to what any of the top WoW devs say after they leave Blizzard. They have their nondisclosure agreements, I'm sure, but those shouldn't last forever.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #806
    Cata heroics at launch were extremely challenging, but in a good way. After a week they nerfed them to the ground, and that's the version most people 'experienced', so yea, GC is accurate when he said they were hard.

    Too bad they nerfed it to cater to the casual crowd that was getting stomped (in early dungeon gear...).

    They actually reminded me of the heroics in TBC, any mistake was a death, and extremely fun to run!

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatryxx View Post
    To be fair, there were plenty of guides readily available for all those dungeons on various websites like WoWhead, WoWpedia etc before inclusion of Dungeon Journal. There really is no excuse for ignorance in WoW when all that you need to know is just a few clicks away. Is it unreasonable to expect people to at LEAST know fights beforehand so they don't have to be hand-held?
    Why is this called ignorance? I never understood it. I call it cheating knowing the fight before doing it. Did you played Warcraft III campains and started to look for guides before even trying ? Stuff like this makes it impossible to even have fun in normal modes.

    I don't think a MMO can exist with so much outside information. It's just wrong on so many levels. It's like playing footbal and knowing where your opponent is gonna pass. What's the point of playing that game? The guy that did the tactic is the one that played the game, not you a simple minded creature the just learned how to read.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Cata heroics at launch were extremely challenging, but in a good way. After a week they nerfed them to the ground,
    What nerf was that? After a week the heroics were still too hard for the tastes/abilities of most players. More nerfing came later, particularly the Luck of the Draw buff.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #809
    Stood in the Fire Eranthe's Avatar
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    they weren't brutally difficult like shattered halls, but they were sufficiently challenging and annoying.

    most of the reason people wiped endlessly in them is because they were spoiled by wrath "heroics" and tried to mass aoe everything and died due to unhealable amounts of damage. instead of adapting and overcoming (cc, some small amount of organization, creative tactics like kiting or offhealing), they went to the forums in droves to have it nerfed down so they mass aoe fests were once again the most effective way to farm pre-raid gear.


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    In Cata, delaying going into heroics could actually make things harder. The best players finished gearing up their mains in heroics and moved on to raids, so the quality of the players you ran into in LFD declined with time.
    Not to mention that INSANE idea they made where they put the final three Hour of Twilight dungeons into its own selectable isolated bracket.

    By doing that, not only did players get burnt out of those dungeons after the first 3 days of playing... but it pulled every single well-geared player OUT of the older dungeons - thus reducing the old dungeons back into the launch-day hell grinds.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  11. #811
    Warchief Byniri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Cata heroics at launch were extremely challenging, but in a good way. After a week they nerfed them to the ground, and that's the version most people 'experienced', so yea, GC is accurate when he said they were hard.
    A week?

    The nerfs happened like 3(?) months in.
    PEPE SILVA, PEPE SILVA

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    instead of adapting and overcoming (cc, some small amount of organization, creative tactics like kiting or offhealing), they went to the forums in droves to have it nerfed down so they mass aoe fests were once again the most effective way to farm pre-raid gear.
    The notion that these people stampeded to the forums is obvious nonsense.

    There were net 5000 people quitting the game PER DAY in the first half of 2011. Did you see 5000 new threads each day about anything? Of course you didn't. Forum posters are a VERY tiny minority of all players.

    Most people who had trouble and quit just... quit. They didn't cry or QQ or whine or do any of the other things the hardcores like to disparage them for (as if them doing this would somehow absolve the game designers of responsibility for what the decisions had caused.)

    Difficult heroic 5 mans were not abandoned because of whining or crying. They were abandoned because huge numbers of people quit the game over them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  13. #813
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Less than 5% of the player base posts on the forums.

  14. #814
    I remember doing VP hc the first day when we dinged 85... with leveling gear it was pretty hard, almost like tbc heroics imo. Tho the first boss was weirdly tuned >.< had to come up with a tactic to sacrifice our healer with a soulstone on to regain some mana in the middle of the fight Too bad the people complained so much that they ended up nerfing them :/ Would prevent people from getting burned out so fast if the dungeons lasted for longer like they used to, less spammable as well would be something possitive.
    Nowish <Envy> HC stream -> http://sv.twitch.tv/viss3

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    I remember doing VP hc the first day when we dinged 85... with leveling gear it was pretty hard, almost like tbc heroics imo. Tho the first boss was weirdly tuned >.< had to come up with a tactic to sacrifice our healer with a soulstone on to regain some mana in the middle of the fight Too bad the people complained so much that they ended up nerfing them :/ Would prevent people from getting burned out so fast if the dungeons lasted for longer like they used to, less spammable as well would be something possitive.
    They actually buffed that first boss, IIRC, since there was an unintended way to cheese one of the mechanics.

    I think they also buffed the final boss. The dragon with the wind and tornadoes got nerfed, though.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-07-25 at 05:43 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    I remember doing VP hc the first day when we dinged 85... with leveling gear it was pretty hard, almost like tbc heroics imo. Tho the first boss was weirdly tuned >.< had to come up with a tactic to sacrifice our healer with a soulstone on to regain some mana in the middle of the fight Too bad the people complained so much that they ended up nerfing them :/ Would prevent people from getting burned out so fast if the dungeons lasted for longer like they used to, less spammable as well would be something possitive.
    Bullhooey. You want to see people burn out, put them a seemingly insurmountable challenge and the casuals will fall off in droves. Only the hardcores believe that extra difficulty is the antidote to burnout. Since there are far far far more casuals than hardcores, that approach is wrong from a financial sense for Blizz.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Bullhooey. You want to see people burn out, put them a seemingly insurmountable challenge and the casuals will fall off in droves. Only the hardcores believe that extra difficulty is the antidote to burnout. Since there are far far far more casuals than hardcores, that approach is wrong from a financial sense for Blizz.
    I agree. Those who want harder content have plenty of it in the form of heroic raids. Heroic dungeons used to be goto content for people who wanted an intermediate level of difficulty. Now they've degenerated into easy mode, but in Cataclysm they were far beyond intermediate. I really didn't understand why Blizzard forced casual players to master raid-level mechanics at Cata launch.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Not to mention that INSANE idea they made where they put the final three Hour of Twilight dungeons into its own selectable isolated bracket.

    By doing that, not only did players get burnt out of those dungeons after the first 3 days of playing... but it pulled every single well-geared player OUT of the older dungeons - thus reducing the old dungeons back into the launch-day hell grinds.
    The old dungeons were already nerfed to the ground at that point, so taking out the well-geared players really did not have much impact on the older dungeons. The only impact (imho) was burn out. Same deal with the 4.1 troll dungeons before that.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Not to mention that INSANE idea they made where they put the final three Hour of Twilight dungeons into its own selectable isolated bracket.
    That was deliberate, I'm sure. "Look, you don't have to run those early ones AT ALL." You could gear up for those final three using PvP gear and just skip the 4.0/4.1 heroics entirely.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  20. #820
    There seems to be much misinformation about the dungeons being nerfed. First of all, there were no nerfs until a good 2 months after launch followed by a second smaller wave 3 month later when the troll dungeons hit. Turns out they weren't massively nerfed at all if you look through the patch notes. Most of them were pretty minor and more to make encounters a bit more reasonable. Some bosses were actually BUFFED.
    So yes they were nerfed, but a lot less than what people seem to believe. Also at the later stage most people already acquired at least some gear which made them less hard which is quite logical and most people knew the tactics by now.

    From a healer perspective they were probably the hardest. I remember healing Stonecore normal at 82 and I thought it was quite nice. Then I healed it at 83 and it was like: huh? where did my mana go?!. 85 hc: please shoot me. I almost threw in the towel at that point, but I stayed with it and once you got the right mindset it was sooo much more rewarding than before. I loved triage healing and the fact I was actually using ALL my spells. Also because of the hard hc's I've never met any bad healer when raiding at that time. The big difference was that you couldn't heal stupid any more. Everyone had to be on the ball. Fights like Throngus and Siamat (stands out a lot for me as I often got randomed right into that boss) are perfect examples of needing to heal efficiently and not stand in stuff and dps giving everything.
    The whole reason I forgave Blizzard for Grim Batol not being a raid was because it felt like a raid.

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