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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by zwaffelinho View Post
    14 to 15K spirit doing the last 4 heroic bosses (the only proper hard ones) should be fine. (edit im 10man)

    How much haste are you running with?

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by alex2395 View Post
    How much haste are you running with?
    You can safely assume that anyone deep in heroic modes is running the 13k breakpoint. With 560+ and maybe even Priston, it's easy to get there and has no downsides for 10 man.
    Personally I found 13k Spirit (with DSD) enough for Malkorok and Thok, and Siegecrafter heroic is much easier on your mana.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    You can safely assume that anyone deep in heroic modes is running the 13k breakpoint. With 560+ and maybe even Priston, it's easy to get there and has no downsides for 10 man.
    Personally I found 13k Spirit (with DSD) enough for Malkorok and Thok, and Siegecrafter heroic is much easier on your mana.
    got it
    I guess I'll go with the 3043 till I get better gear(and the cape next week maybe )
    thanks for all the help guys

  4. #224
    Can you tell me if i'm able to reach the 13k haste break point, without losing too much int. I know my mastery will take a hit, but I'll do it if its worth it.

    Craatus from Bladefist, since I can't post a link to it.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Craatus View Post
    Can you tell me if i'm able to reach the 13k haste break point, without losing too much int. I know my mastery will take a hit, but I'll do it if its worth it.

    Craatus from Bladefist, since I can't post a link to it.
    Your item level is high enough but you do not have enough haste pieces to even get close. Try to get more haste pieces (spirit haste neck from sha, bracers from Malk, spirit haste shoulders from garrosh since you have heroic tier chest, unless you stumble upon heroic WF spirit haste chest from paragons, ring from Jugger, etc).

    There are many posts about the 13163 break point on the druid forums that you can probably look and see what pieces you need if you can't seem to get it on your own.

    There's also askmrrobot. He'll tell you if you can even reach the breakpoint with the gear you have on, gems, and reforging. (You can technically hit it but you'd lose a lot if intellect, and mastery. not worth.)


    Edit: get the PPP from Sha and you can probably do it then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by alex2395 View Post
    How much haste are you running with?
    ye 13K, Thok you get ages to regen mana anyway so im considering reforging more spirit into mastery, but ooh well its not like we're struggling on healing there anyway.

  7. #227
    I'm right at the gearing point where I have enough haste pieces that I can reach the 13163 Haste, however, it will require switching from mastery to haste gems (yellow to haste, red to int/haste, and blue to spi/haste), along with changing my glove enchant to haste and I believe only reforging off one piece of gear from mastery to haste. It will leave me with approx 21% mastery.

    Is the sacrifice to my mastery worth pushing to 13163 Haste break point? Or would it be worth holding out for a couple more solid upgrades on haste gear?

    (Current gear, lowest I can push my haste is to 3829, with 36.7% Mastery)
    Last edited by Songweaver; 2013-11-16 at 02:31 AM.

    Created by Sokogeka

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Songweaver View Post
    I'm right at the gearing point where I have enough haste pieces that I can reach the 13163 Haste, however, it will require switching from mastery to haste gems (yellow to haste, red to int/haste, and blue to spi/haste), along with changing my glove enchant to haste and I believe only reforging off one piece of gear from mastery to haste. It will leave me with approx 21% mastery.

    Is the sacrifice to my mastery worth pushing to 13163 Haste break point? Or would it be worth holding out for a couple more solid upgrades on haste gear?

    (Current gear, lowest I can push my haste is to 3829, with 36.7% Mastery)
    Rule of thumb: If you don't have to gem straight 320 haste gems, you're probably good to go. However, if you want a more technical answer, browse though the 20 threads about the 13163 break point, there are some out there that give you an equation, a spread sheet, an anecdote... whatever you need to convince yourself. But honestly, if you're in flex SoO gear or higher, there's almost no reason why you shouldn't have the 13k break point unless you're taking all the mastery and crit gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

  9. #229
    also note that crit and int lose their relative values by a huge amount when you swap to 13k (because at 3k, mastery gets stacked so high that the only reason crit isn't better is due to shrooms and glyphed regrowth getting no benefits from crit) and mastery's relative value goes way up

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordaen View Post
    Rule of thumb: If you don't have to gem straight 320 haste gems, you're probably good to go. However, if you want a more technical answer, browse though the 20 threads about the 13163 break point, there are some out there that give you an equation, a spread sheet, an anecdote... whatever you need to convince yourself. But honestly, if you're in flex SoO gear or higher, there's almost no reason why you shouldn't have the 13k break point unless you're taking all the mastery and crit gear.
    I'm not convinced; In this expansion, and up to and including this raid tier; gemming secondary stats has provided a larger throughput; with the current secondaryrimary ratio at 2:1. The implication is that pure haste/mastery gems actually provide more than pure intellect or mix gems. You'll want to resort to mix gems however for socket slots where there are no other option, because the socket bonuses usually tip the scale in the favor of gemming for bonus. Examples are red socket slots where you'll end up gemming mix are RED; the two others you'll get pure in, unless you are in a peculiar situation with your gear (i.e you'll be overcapping haste if you gem pure, or anything like that).
    ^ I agree with this.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryklin View Post
    ...the only reason crit isn't better is due to shrooms and glyphed regrowth getting no benefits from crit...
    I believe the mushroom technically does benefit from crit, as long as you bloom it before it's fully stacked up at least some of the time. The mushroom grows from Rejuvenation healing, so an X% increase in Rejuvenation healing is an X% increase in how fast the mushroom grows. This also means the mushroom indirectly benefits from the 13k haste breakpoint and the 4T15 set bonus.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordaen View Post
    Rule of thumb: If you don't have to gem straight 320 haste gems, you're probably good to go. However, if you want a more technical answer, browse though the 20 threads about the 13163 break point, there are some out there that give you an equation, a spread sheet, an anecdote... whatever you need to convince yourself. But honestly, if you're in flex SoO gear or higher, there's almost no reason why you shouldn't have the 13k break point unless you're taking all the mastery and crit gear.
    There is nothing wrong with 320 haste gems. A better rule of thumb would be: if you can get to the haste cap by only losing mastery and crit, do it. If you lose spirit or socket bonuses, don't do it.

    The best case is when you can get from 3k to 13k haste by losing 10k mastery. It's definitely worth it.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    There is nothing wrong with 320 haste gems. A better rule of thumb would be: if you can get to the haste cap by only losing mastery and crit, do it. If you lose spirit or socket bonuses, don't do it.

    The best case is when you can get from 3k to 13k haste by losing 10k mastery. It's definitely worth it.
    So losing out on a couple hundred spirit, mastery, and intellect is worth it? In almost all the sims and research I've done for my toon, I needed hybrid gems in my reds and blues to keep up, and I have mostly haste gear. I can't imagine having mostly mastery gear and forcing it to go haste by having 20+ 320 haste gems. but as I said, that was for my character and my 10 man heroic progression, I can't say much for people who have a different healing set up, 25 man, normal/flex, etc. I was just giving a loose rule to follow since they didn't seem to have looked at any of the other threads that addressed his very question, which leads me to assume he wanted a quick answer. Sorry if it was too specialized, that wasn't my intention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordaen View Post
    So losing out on a couple hundred spirit, mastery, and intellect is worth it? In almost all the sims and research I've done for my toon, I needed hybrid gems in my reds and blues to keep up, and I have mostly haste gear. I can't imagine having mostly mastery gear and forcing it to go haste by having 20+ 320 haste gems. but as I said, that was for my character and my 10 man heroic progression, I can't say much for people who have a different healing set up, 25 man, normal/flex, etc. I was just giving a loose rule to follow since they didn't seem to have looked at any of the other threads that addressed his very question, which leads me to assume he wanted a quick answer. Sorry if it was too specialized, that wasn't my intention.
    The point is, if you are gemming according to the usual stat values, you are using 320 mastery gems in all yellow sockets if you go for low haste (because 2 mastery > 1 int). So if you switch to 320 haste gems, you only lose mastery. As I said before, you should not pass on too many socket bonuses, but using 320 haste gems in yellow sockets is definitely the right way to reach 13k.

    For blue sockets, you should currently be using spirit+mastery gems, which you can easily switch to spirit+haste gems. (I'm not saying it's worth for your character specificly, as I have no idea what your gear looks like.)
    Last edited by Thalur; 2013-11-17 at 01:12 AM.

  15. #235
    I think too many people are overlooking the 6652 haste breakpoint. If you cannot get below ~4k haste because of your gear, but you cannot afford to drop other stats to hit the 13k breakpoint, there is no harm in hitting the 6652 haste breakpoint. Especially if you can do so and still maintain 30%+ mastery. Honestly the 13k haste breakpoint isn't worth pursuing until you can maintain a comfortable level of spirit, and a comfortable level of mastery, which is nearly impossible without the trinket off of Sha.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    I think too many people are overlooking the 6652 haste breakpoint. If you cannot get below ~4k haste because of your gear, but you cannot afford to drop other stats to hit the 13k breakpoint, there is no harm in hitting the 6652 haste breakpoint. Especially if you can do so and still maintain 30%+ mastery. Honestly the 13k haste breakpoint isn't worth pursuing until you can maintain a comfortable level of spirit, and a comfortable level of mastery, which is nearly impossible without the trinket off of Sha.
    Or having most pieces with Haste on them. I'm 560ish atm on my Druid and the only reason I'm still using the 3043 breakpoint is because I need more Haste gear + Sha trinket (only 1 fucking drop in all our main runs).

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    If you cannot get below ~4k haste because of your gear, but you cannot afford to drop other stats to hit the 13k breakpoint, there is no harm in hitting the 6652 haste breakpoint.
    ...except for the 2600 mastery you're giving up for little benefit. If you're sitting at 6k haste anyway then sure, but not if you can actually get as low as ~4k.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  18. #238
    I already explained this in the other post, but since this thread is a bit more popular with people with these kind of questions, I will post it for everyones benefit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    I disagree completely. Yeah if you are reforged and gemmed INTO haste, then you can lose 1300 haste without much in the way of lost stats. However if you have reforged and gemmed out of all of the haste that you can and still are 1300 above the cap, then yes, hitting the next beneficial cap is the next logical solution. At 6652 you gain 2 additional ticks to your 2nd and 3rd highest healing spells and adds an additional tick to LB. Saying that it doesn't add much is foolish, and just plain wrong.

    Here is a breakdown of what you get with 6652:
    3 additional LB ticks (21 with SoTF)
    2 additional WG/Efflo ticks (10 with SoTF)
    6 additional ticks of Rejuv with SoTF

    That might not seem like much, but when the 3 top healing spells get that much of a boost - its worth losing a bit of mastery. Especially in a 10 man setting. For 25 man not nearly as beneficial, but still worth getting.
    Look, I am not saying that 6652 is the optimal haste breakpoint. It clearly isn't. However as you are collecting all of this BiS haste gear as you progress through SoO you are going to likely reach a point where you are sitting at 4k+ haste, too much spirit, and stuck between 3k and 13k haste because you cant hit either. At this point, it is safe to go for the 6652 haste breakpoint. Unless you are sitting at exactly 3043 haste - any excess is completely wasted stats.

    Here is a situation where you find yourself sitting at 4343 haste, meaning you have 1300 in wasted stats and you cannot lose this haste no matter how much you reforge. Here are the 2 decisions you can make.
    Decision 1: You decide to do nothing and just eat the wasted stats because you don't have enough of the BiS gear needed to reach the 13k haste breakpoint without losing a ton of other stats.
    Decision 2: You realize that you are only going to get more and more haste gear, and decide to go for the next haste cap even if it isn't optimal for BiS gear (which you don't have because if you did you wouldn't be faced with this situation to begin with). Doing so you end up losing a bit of mastery, however you end up with 0 wasted stats rather than 1300.

    Yes, we all agree that 6652 isn't optimal for BiS gear and sitting at 6652 for the rest of the expansion is not something you should be aiming for. But as I mentioned above, if we were in BiS gear, this wouldn't even be an issue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by insanedruid View Post
    As you always keep Lb and Efflo up so they scale directly with haste and they don't really have a breakpoint.
    And I'm quite sure that SotF makes the breakpoint less attractive as the whole point of going 6652 is to get an extra tick for WG.
    SotF increase the number of "base" ticks and thus makes the extra ticks less useful.

    And the 6652 only give you 1 extra ticks for WG (SotF or not) and one extra tick for SofT buffed rejuv.
    So no it doesn't add much.
    Wait what? You get 100% haste added to WG when you use SM - why wouldn't you get extra ticks from that haste you get from SoTF? This is true only for the HoT portion of tranquility, and only because the haste is given to the Tranquility channel, and is no longer there once the HoTs start being put on the raid - this is completely false for every other druid spell.

    Just because something is kept up 100% doesn't make haste breakpoints any less valuable (ask any affliction lock). If something is kept up 100% of the time haste benefits the time between ticks, as well as the length the HoT/DoT remains up, the closer you are to a breakpoint, the less time a DoT/HoT is going to remain on your target. If you are sitting between haste breakpoints, the length of time your HoTs/DoTs remain up are shortened until you hit the next breakpoint - robbing you of GCD's (because you have to refresh them more often) obviously this does not effect spells like WG with a fixed CD time.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    I already explained this in the other post, but since this thread is a bit more popular with people with these kind of questions, I will post it for everyones benefit:



    Look, I am not saying that 6652 is the optimal haste breakpoint. It clearly isn't. However as you are collecting all of this BiS haste gear as you progress through SoO you are going to likely reach a point where you are sitting at 4k+ haste, too much spirit, and stuck between 3k and 13k haste because you cant hit either. At this point, it is safe to go for the 6652 haste breakpoint. Unless you are sitting at exactly 3043 haste - any excess is completely wasted stats.

    Here is a situation where you find yourself sitting at 4343 haste, meaning you have 1300 in wasted stats and you cannot lose this haste no matter how much you reforge. Here are the 2 decisions you can make.
    Decision 1: You decide to do nothing and just eat the wasted stats because you don't have enough of the BiS gear needed to reach the 13k haste breakpoint without losing a ton of other stats.
    Decision 2: You realize that you are only going to get more and more haste gear, and decide to go for the next haste cap even if it isn't optimal for BiS gear (which you don't have because if you did you wouldn't be faced with this situation to begin with). Doing so you end up losing a bit of mastery, however you end up with 0 wasted stats rather than 1300.

    Yes, we all agree that 6652 isn't optimal for BiS gear and sitting at 6652 for the rest of the expansion is not something you should be aiming for. But as I mentioned above, if we were in BiS gear, this wouldn't even be an issue.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wait what? You get 100% haste added to WG when you use SM - why wouldn't you get extra ticks from that haste you get from SoTF? This is true only for the HoT portion of tranquility, and only because the haste is given to the Tranquility channel, and is no longer there once the HoTs start being put on the raid - this is completely false for every other druid spell.

    Just because something is kept up 100% doesn't make haste breakpoints any less valuable (ask any affliction lock). If something is kept up 100% of the time haste benefits the time between ticks, as well as the length the HoT/DoT remains up, the closer you are to a breakpoint, the less time a DoT/HoT is going to remain on your target. If you are sitting between haste breakpoints, the length of time your HoTs/DoTs remain up are shortened until you hit the next breakpoint - robbing you of GCD's (because you have to refresh them more often) obviously this does not effect spells like WG with a fixed CD time.
    The 100% haste is given by the talent SotF, not the 6K breakpoint. I think you have mixed them up.
    Going from 4K to 6K gives you 1 tick but not 2 ticks to WG.
    And it gives 0 tick to rejuv if the rejuv is not buffed by SotF.

    While lb and efflo doesn't effectively have breakpoint haste does buff them.
    But the point is that going from 4K to 6K breakpoint is a tiny gain if not a lost in HPS.
    It's definitely not a huge gain.

    While sitting at 4.3K haste you might be wasting 1.3K haste but it doesn't necessarily mean that it must be a gain going for the next WG breakpoint.
    If you are sitting at 3143 haste would you go for the next WG breakpoint because you are wasting 100 haste?
    If you are sitting at 4343 haste would you go for the next WG breakpoint because you are wasting 1300 haste?
    If you are sitting at 6343 haste would you go for the next WG breakpoint because you are wasting 3300 haste?

    It is not about BIS or having wasted stat.
    It is that which breakpoint is the best for you current gear.

    I did the calculation before and found that it's a lost in HPS unless I have like 4500+ haste.
    Last edited by insanedruid; 2013-11-18 at 08:34 AM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Honestly the 13k haste breakpoint isn't worth pursuing until you can maintain a comfortable level of spirit, and a comfortable level of mastery, which is nearly impossible without the trinket off of Sha.
    That's a funny statement considering I switched to 13k haste when I had 40 ilvls less than today (around 535). And there was no Sha trinket.

    There is no point trying to maintain "a comfortable level of mastery", because the haste for the 13k breakpoint is simply better than mastery. If you have to decide between 13k haste and 0 mastery, and 3k haste and 10k mastery, the haste breakpoint wins.

    The deciding factor for the 13k breakpoint is if you can get it and maintain your level of spirit, and not skip (many) socket bonuses. Mastery has nothing to do with it.

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