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  1. #341
    Thank you guys for the advice, I'm glad that my reluctance to change to haste with this gear wasn't based on nothing. I've changed my gems to maximize mastery. I suppose I was still a bit stuck in the cataclysm way of never giving up intellect Now lets hope for some great haste drops!

    Thanks a lot guys!
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  2. #342

  3. #343
    Herald of the Titans Norganon's Avatar
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    Is it worth giving up 15% mastery to reach the 13k soft haste cap?
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  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Norganon View Post
    Is it worth giving up 15% mastery to reach the 13k soft haste cap?
    Generally, yes. But IMO it's more about how much mastery you end up with and not how much you lose. What's your %/rating?

    I think the absolute minimum you should have is around 5-6k mastery unbuffed

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  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Norganon View Post
    Is it worth giving up 15% mastery to reach the 13k soft haste cap?
    You could probably read the hundred other posts or threads on these druid forums if it's worth or not. 90% of the time they'd tell you to go to AMR, set your spirit and bp to whatever you want, and as long as you have like 7k+ mastery it's usually worth it, especially with PPP. It'd be way more helpful if you posted anything about yourself other than the question. how much spirit? are you raiding flex or heroic? 10? 25? what trinkets do you have? do you use rejuv a lot? do you raid with strong healers? weak? do you over heal? under heal? the questions are endless and they'd all be answered with an armory and a link to logs.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordaen View Post
    are you raiding flex or heroic?
    Can I ask a somewhat stupid question? Other than your gear being better or worse depending on what you raid, how does this have an impact on how you "should" gear? Spirit and Mastery is gonna be just as useful in Flex as is it in Heroic?

  7. #347
    This matters more during progression than it does when you overgear the content/have it on farm, but here's the reason:

    As the damage intensity increases in the harder difficulties, you will need to cast more rejuvs and/or more genesis and non-OoC regrowths for damage spikes such that you will use more mana than at lower difficulties. Using more mana will up your spirit requirements.

    Hence why heroic raiders often (though not always) have higher spirit than normal/flex. (varies based on availability of mana tides/hymns, etc)
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2014-01-15 at 07:00 PM.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    This matters more during progression than it does when you overgear the content/have it on farm, but here's the reason:

    As the damage intensity increases in the harder difficulties, you will need to cast more rejuvs or more genesis / non-OoC regrowth for spikes such that you will use more mana than at lower difficulties. Using more mana will up your spirit requirements.

    Hence why heroic raiders often (though not always) have higher spirit than normal/flex. (varies based on availability of mana tides/hymns, etc)
    Exactly. If you're raiding flex, you can get away with 8k spirit, 3k haste and the rest of your meager stats into mastery. As soon as you step into normal, you should probably drop some mastery for spirit, perhaps pick up the 13k bp if you have enough haste pieces, and cut back on the mindless RJ spam. As you enter heroics, it becomes almost imperative that you take the 13k haste bp, get between 12k and 15k spirit, and squeeze out every single point of mastery you can, as well as track your hots as to not waste mana/spread the healing love. Obviously as the tier has been out for a while now and people know the earlier fights in heroic, you probably can keep healing them the same as you would on normal. However, as soon as you get past sha of pride, the difficulty jumps up and that is where you'll see people struggling if they're not prepared for it. Iron Juggernaut is not an easy fight to heal for the first few pulls unless you have veteran healers who have actually looked up the fight and specs and browsed here or elsewhere for other suggestions. Dark shamans is not a walk in the park either, especially if you try solo healing haromm's group off the get go. These points become null and void if you severely outgear the content (as in, doing IJ in a 570 already because you got stupidly lucky on heroic WF pieces off of earlier bosses, WF pieces from Ordos etc), but in general, the later fights require more precision with stats.

  9. #349
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks0410 View Post
    Can I ask a somewhat stupid question? Other than your gear being better or worse depending on what you raid, how does this have an impact on how you "should" gear? Spirit and Mastery is gonna be just as useful in Flex as is it in Heroic?
    There's less to heal on flex, so things like Efflorescence, Wild Growth (just click it on cooldown) and Lifebloom will do more of the work. In comparison, heroic has much higher damage that will force you to use Rejuvenation and Regrowth a lot more. At the same time, a heroic raid team can be expected to be more skilled and better at dealing with various mechanics, so they'll take less damage from avoidable mechanics. That leads to heroic healing being much spikier (more damage taken by unavoidable mechanics, less damage taken by avoidable ones), again favoring spamable spells like Rejuvenation and burst spells like Tranquility and WM:BLoom over cooldown-limited spells like Wild Growth and constant effects like Efflorescence.

    Since your spells scale very differently with haste and spirit, the values you want to go for will depend on what spells you use. Rejuvenation gains nothing in between 3k and 13k, but benefits greatly from reaching 13k. Efflorescence has no breakpoints. Wild Growth is cheap and on a cooldown, so more spirit won't let you cast it more. Rejuvenation is expensive and can be cast as much as you can afford to, so it benefits decently from spirit. At the same time, you only have so many GCDs during a burst phase and so don't really benefit at all from haste beyond that on heroic. On flex the healing requirements will be less spiky and you have plenty of time to cast more Rejuvenations. So spirit is worth more on heroic up to a certain point, beyond which the value drops very quickly.
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  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    As the damage intensity increases in the harder difficulties, you will need to cast more rejuvs
    I know I'm raising and old point once again but aren't we back to "1000 spirit = 2 rejuvs/3 min"? Yes, there'll be more dmg in Heroic than in Flex but it ups your gear requirements, not necessarily spirit requirements.


    Not really sure how this quoting works but Jordean, you said: "if you're raiding flex, you can get away with 8k spirit". I'm not talking about what you can get away with, I'm talking about what is most efficient.

    We upgrade our gear as we enter more and more difficult raid instances and encounters. But saying that you should gear in a specific way (fx: you need more spirit cus the raid will take more dmg in heroic than it does in flex) depending on wether you raid normal over flex or whatever, I'm not sure I really agree with.

    Alltat, your response made the most sense to me, however, "In comparison, heroic has much higher damage that will force you to use Rejuvenation and Regrowth a lot more." Same as before. You can choose to stack more spirit going into heroics to counter this, but the truth is that you don't get a lot more :P


    I'd like to avoid another Mastery vs. Spirit conversation, I've asked that question too many times in the past. This is more sort of: Do you need to gear in a specific way just because you're stepping into heroics? i.e. reforge mastery into haste instead of spirit (and thereby consciously choosing spirit over mastery) to counter the dmg you'll see in heroics. Or should you just aim to improve your gear/stats/hastebreakpoints as you go along? Imagine Flex -> Normal -> Heroic as a linear difficulty progression. Not separate instances that requires different gear setups. If that makes sense.

  11. #351
    Yes, there'll be more dmg in Heroic than in Flex but it ups your gear requirements, not necessarily spirit requirements.
    While true, in general for a healer higher gear ilvl = more spirit anyhow. So that's a moot point unless you are snagging a lot of non-spirit caster gear for some reason.
    Do you need to gear in a specific way just because you're stepping into heroics?
    No, you gear based on the needs of the content you are facing.

    When I said the harder difficulties tend to require more spirit, I don't mean: hey i'm going to go from normal to heroic, i should automatically up my spirit by 3.75k without even seeing the fights.
    Its more like: hey several fights into heroic, I start running out of mana before the boss is dead, next week (or next boss) i'll try and reforge for more spirit.
    Its an organic process, not a fixed formulaic change per difficulty.

    However, with the benefit of hindsight , we are telling you that, having ourselves gone through the process, you will likely need more spirit to keep up with the damage as difficulty levels increase. How MUCH more spirit is going to entirely depend on your play style, how well your raid avoids damage, your healing partners, availability of MTT and Hymns, whether u raid 10s or 25s etc. That's why you often see things like "for heroic raiding, you'll typically want between 12-18k spirit"

    Honestly it still comes down to the basic priority of: Enough spirit, Haste to bp (3k or 13k), rest mastery. Where that ENOUGH spirit happens to land is different for each person, but typically tends to increase as they move up in difficulty.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2014-01-16 at 03:51 PM.

  12. #352
    Personally, I think heroics require more throughput than regen. Personally I'm running as low spirit as I reasonably can, even using the crit leg enchant, because at least for me, I run out of throughput more often than mana. I never ran out of mana during our garrosh progress, even though I was running as low spirit as I am now, but throughput can be a limit. You need to push through enough healing to survive those intermission annihilates and empowered whirls. You could say the same for the big add AOE damage at spoils. And several other bosses.

  13. #353
    Hello everyone,

    I wanted to share a little Flex story.

    I created a group for flex 4, myself playing and ilvl540 restoration druid. While creating the group I was asked by another forming group to join groups to start and I agreed. We were 12 people, 3 healers. The average ilvl of the group outside of me was 560+, the other 2 healers were a 570 priest and a 565 restoration shaman, plus we were using TS.
    On blackfuse there was litereally nothing for me to heal and then the priest starts whispering me "that the druid is waste". On Klaxxi nothing really to heal either. The raid was moving forward without any problems but then we started wiping 8 times on Garrosh under 10% each time because people were not interrupted. One time we wiped because we did the stack tactic with 3 healers and my tranquility was on cooldown when a bunch of people died during concentrated AOE.

    Then suddenly the priest starts to bitch about me in the raid chat because he had twice as much healing as me, suggesting that I was half-assing and doing nothing. I told him to shut up and that the healing meter is useless when there is nothing to heal for 90% of the time especially as a Druid and that we never wipe because of heal.
    Then after 2 more wipes where I pulled 80k hps and the random priest and shaman in much better gear did 120k and 140k the raid leader whispered me they would have to remove me if I don't perform better on the healmeter. I was like WTF, I know I am a pretty good player and doing my job here and helped put together the group. I explained to him that as a druid it is no wonder that I have 200% overheal when the priest and shaman heal everything with their direct heals and diving aegis before my hots can really tick even.
    They did not listen to me as I suspect the priest who started bitching after blackfuse already worked the whisper channels with other people to make them feel like I was the reason the group was struggling so they removed me from the instance group at Garrosh. They wiped at least 2 times more after that I left the raid group.

    (I one-shotted Garrosh after that with a random OQ-group that I created without teamspeak)

    I am pretty sure I am right on this and they were wrong but someone who has been playing restoration druid for longer might tell me different. I think there is no way a resto druid could come close to healing efficiency of other healers in an overhealing situation at a 30ilvl difference evens. The nature of hots working over time results in overhealing.

  14. #354
    what you just described is a problem with overgeared disc priests really being the big part, that and people that are uneducated about low healing check fights and absorbs (which is what wing 4 flex really is, because instead, it has decent amounts of burst damage raid damage, tank damage, and mechanics instead), the other night a friend of mine was trying to pug normal garrosh as he missed our normal clearing and his group was upset he and some other holy paladin were only pulling around the 120k hps on normal mode 10M garrosh while wiping to interrupts
    (which has like, a 300-ish k hps check for the raid, including tank and dps healing abilities, not that these idiots knew that you need outgoing damage damage to make healing meters go up)

    the real answer here is to go mistweaver, resto shammy, or holy pally and do mechanics for other people, because skull bash macros aren't coming back any time soon

    bottom line is: people are fucking dumb (you already knew this)


    and as far as the whole gearing questions further up, imo you can pretty much take any amount of spirit you want to feel comfortable with up to like 18k tops through heroic malkorok, and then after that, spoils and thok may make you want to drop down to a pretty low amount

    and even then, a lower spirit build would still be more preferable up to that point and you'd perform better on healing meters, and be the guy carrying your team doing twice the healing of the other healer(s)

  15. #355
    I must say first that this guide is Excellent for druid's learning to heal. I have been a resto druid for 4 years now and I love the math and number crucnhing to max out my toon.
    With that said I have been debating for weeks now of whether to go to the 13163 haste breakpoint, Currently my raid team is 10/14 on normal Siege, I have a shad priest in my group, and I run at the 6652 haste point, because if I did 3043 I end up over the breakpoint so I was trying to utilize my stats the best. I have high mastery and very high spirit of which I never run out of mana in a fight.
    I am nervous to change all the gems to try out the 13k breakpoint and then realize with the loss of so much mastery and spirit I am not as good in a fight because currently I am always the top healer on our team. I am nervous with the loss of spirit and running out of mana, and I am not sure how the loss of mastery will affect me.
    My playstyle is pretty basic, I keep my green circle on the ground where most players taking damage will be (mostly melee&Tanks), I keep lifebloom stacked on a tank, and wild growth and throw out rejuv's all over the raid...I very rarely use genesis, I tranq when needed and of course use shrooms accordingly and swiftmend to keep mastery up, and I use regrowth when I get the mana free one to restack lifebloom on a tank.... etc etc.......

    my Armory, my ilevel is 560...Just want advice on which is the best haste to be at because i have never tried past the 6652 one.
    I cannot link my armory cause I am new to mmo and it says I cannot add links yet but my stats are as follows hopefully this can help

    Base stats

    Stamina 35142
    Intellect 26247
    Spirit 19791
    Mastery 24.58%
    Spell Power 39078
    Haste 15.65%
    Hit +15.00%
    Mana Regen 28339
    Combat Regen 17169
    Crit 16.29%




    Thank you

  16. #356
    Ok, some people seem to be confused about spirit requirements. There is no right or wrong answer here.

    This is your spirit requirement: You need enough spirit to end the fight with 10-20% mana. If you are ending the fights you are progressing on with anything above 20%, you can afford to lose some spirit. If you are barely making it half way through a fight and running out of mana, then you need more. If you are completing fights without using innervate on yourself, you can afford to lose some spirit. This will all depend on your healing comp as well. If you are not running with a priest or shaman, than your spirit requirements are going to be a tad higher because you only have innervate to depend on for mana regen.

  17. #357
    Just because you run OOM on an attempt or two, it doesnt mean you need to get more spirit. More like, you need to probably optimize your healing a bit more. Personally I do a lot of hotting up people at full hp and so I overheal a lot but I don't run out of mana at pretty much anything. If I do its my own failure at estimation and is usually still easily fixed by calling for some mana cooldowns, drinking a pot and cutting back on the rejuvs.

  18. #358
    I know there is not a spirit requirement, I was just asking for advice on what other people are doing when they have too much spirit as I do. and when they go for the 13163 haste and how they balance their other stats. I figure it out though anyway, just go for the 13163 haste as long as I have at least 4900 mastery, still leaves me with 15.5k spirit. And this is really nice setup now!!

  19. #359
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    This is your spirit requirement: You need enough spirit to end the fight with 10-20% mana.
    I don't think that number is all that suitable to druids or progression. The "perfect" scenario as a druid is to go OOM ten seconds before the boss dies, because your HoTs keep on ticking and the spells you cast in those last ten seconds aren't going to make any difference anyway. You'll of course need some buffer for unforeseeable events that cause you to spend more mana on a particular attempt, but you shouldn't be aiming to have mana to spare at the end of the fight. Unless someone died after you went OOM, you going OOM was not a problem and the higher amount of throughput stats your low spirit allowed you to stack may have saved one or more life earlier in the fight. If someone does die because you go OOM, it's still possible that lower spirit would have been more helpful as higher throughput stats let you do more healing with fewer spells, thus saving mana.

    I would recommend testing lowering your spirit by about 1k each week until it's a problem. It takes a bit of getting used to and people who have always over-stacked spirit may feel uncomfortable with a mostly empty bar, but you'll gain a lot of throughput stats. If you never get any "not enough mana" messages on progression content, you have too much spirit.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  20. #360
    My guild has a resto druid app that has been playing with us. When I went through his logs he isn't casting any regrowth and he has the healing touch glyph in place of regrowth glyph. I main a warrior and only do casual raiding on my resto druid so I am no expert. But is this a viable healing style now? I never use healing touch except with 5 stacks of my tier set bonus or with nature's swiftness. Can someone let me know about not using glyphed regrowth > healing touch?

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