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  1. #1

    New Feral Savagery Talent

    Making Savagery passive and always there is nice, but I see it as more of a convenience talent than I do a power boost. It is way too easy to apply the effect to call it a significant buff. Looking at other level 100 talents and seeing how powerful some of them are looking gives you an idea how poorly this one stacks up. If they want to wow me with this one, then they need to make savagery baseline and make the new savagery talent read: All bleeds now do 15% more damage.

  2. #2
    I'm not sure if you'd call it so much as a "buff" talent as much as a convenience talent (Much like as you said). But in theory if you no longer need to cast Savage Roar, then you have plenty of opportunities to use Ferocious Bite much more often than it is done today. I'm not exactly sure how so anyone feel free to correct me on this but I recall reading a thread a while back stating that the moonfire talent for feral will be the "hardcore" talent choice vs the savage roar talent being for more laxed gameplay.That's just my looks on it though

  3. #3
    I think it's mainly a gateway talent. If you're going to start learning Feral or Balance, you can take the talent that gives you 100% uptime on savage roar or eclipse.

    Might also be taken in pvp, where ramp up time is bad.

    99% sure it won't be optimal in pve.
    loljk

  4. #4
    Would you rather have a talent that gave you 5 CP, 25 energy and 1 extra GCD every 40 seconds?

  5. #5
    It is a damage increase, please notice that DoC no longer increases damage done. We will have to wait and see how hard moonfire hit... also thrash applying rake might be a damage increase if you get to use thrash on every OOC proc, but it doesn't mention generating a combo point, so I guess this will be pretty bad unless in AoE intensive fight.

    Again, we will have to see.

  6. #6
    It's not actually much of a DPS increase. Like Huth alluded too you just get to skip using SR once every 40 seconds. That means ya you have 5 extra combo points to do 1 more FB then you could before every 40 seconds. So it's not just "less then optimal", it's actually VERY weak.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekkeri View Post
    I think it's mainly a gateway talent. If you're going to start learning Feral or Balance, you can take the talent that gives you 100% uptime on savage roar or eclipse.

    Might also be taken in pvp, where ramp up time is bad.

    99% sure it won't be optimal in pve.

    Can't comment on pve, but you're right that it's more of a 'starter' talent. SR passive for Feral is more of a random bg (perhaps rated too, but who needs Ferals in rbg anyway - at least pre 6.0) talent. For arena moonfire will be the best option. In fact I'd even take moonfire for randoms. It's going to be invaluable while SR is not hard to maintain.

  8. #8
    It is patch 3.0. Problem feral DPS doesn't scale well.

    Step 1: Instead of actually fixing the scaling issues, create a new ability that should never be made. Name it Savage Roar.

    Step 2:Now, watch it destroy feral PvP worse than before due to its slow ramp up time and the fact half the classes could dispel it with relative ease.
    Then watch people point to feral and talk about how they have one of the most OP DPS abilities ever neglecting the fact that feral is so under developed that the OP ability is required to even make them viable.

    Step 3: Wait 3 expansion of it while tinkering with it but never actually getting rid of it.

    Step 4: Make it passive so you can get rid of it without actually getting rid of it..... AKA: Profit!

  9. #9
    Savagery is really weak but if the fight doesn't have a use for Bloody Thrash or Moonfire it's actually the highest DPS talent. Kind of sad.

  10. #10
    I hope blizz r not going to read powcsonka's thread.
    Last edited by mmokri; 2014-04-09 at 05:27 AM.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Would you rather have a talent that gave you 5 CP, 25 energy and 1 extra GCD every 40 seconds?
    lol nice way of working it

    it is this pretty much, having it passive is indeed to make the play style more easy, but it does boost your power as you can save those 5 CP and 25 energy, every 40 seconds and you probely end up using them for a FB

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Savagery is really weak but if the fight doesn't have a use for Bloody Thrash or Moonfire it's actually the highest DPS talent. Kind of sad.
    i cant thionk of a fight that would have no use for moonfire?

    its still sceptical, but some poeple thing this will only be used for ranged CP's, i think it will be used instead of a single shred, as it will have a higher DPE (if you let the dot tick). but we wont know for sure until we test in the beta.
    but i am right then moonfire will always work, and bloody trash will just be overpower at aoe fights, and savaragy will just be to make it easyer to play
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  12. #12
    I suspect there is still too much we do not know to come to any solid conclusions: How hard will ferocious bite hit? How hard will the rotation be to maintain with savage roar? What will our energy regen look like? How hard will moonfire hit? Will a thrash that applies rake to your current target actually supply combo points? If so, how many? What about crits? Are any of these answers subject to change?

  13. #13
    The Patient theostrichsays's Avatar
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    It will be nice for people who are just starting/learning feral along with people who play alts... Seriously have seen some abysmal uptimes in flex/lfr.
    I likely wouldn't take it for anything, the whole cp thing is which target would be granted the cp. If you have 3 targets and you thrash, who would it be on? It would be better worded as 1 additional cp granted on next cp generating ability. That stuff might be nice for CMs though. If they were not removing snap shotting though it would be nigh near worthless unless your new rake is stronger.. that is not a concern now though. But depending on when you get a clarity proc it might lower its usefulness. Rake is almost up.. refresh... oh look clarity proc... So I can't help but feel that laser kitty talent will be the best in most cases.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by theostrichsays View Post
    It will be nice for people who are just starting/learning feral along with people who play alts... Seriously have seen some abysmal uptimes in flex/lfr.
    I likely wouldn't take it for anything, the whole cp thing is which target would be granted the cp. If you have 3 targets and you thrash, who would it be on? It would be better worded as 1 additional cp granted on next cp generating ability. That stuff might be nice for CMs though. If they were not removing snap shotting though it would be nigh near worthless unless your new rake is stronger.. that is not a concern now though. But depending on when you get a clarity proc it might lower its usefulness. Rake is almost up.. refresh... oh look clarity proc... So I can't help but feel that laser kitty talent will be the best in most cases.
    I think it would work just like swipe works right now, the cp is generated on whichever one you're targetting within range. Only if the rogue/feral cp change stays it won't matter since all cp will basically be on you instead of tied to targets. And if clarity procs, so what? Use it on something else.
    Last edited by Kojo; 2014-04-09 at 12:58 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Savagery is really weak but if the fight doesn't have a use for Bloody Thrash or Moonfire it's actually the highest DPS talent. Kind of sad.
    Even if Moonfire is really weak, it will still be better then Savagery in every case. Because unlike Savagery it actually does damage.

  16. #16
    It's fairly easy to compare Bloody Thrash to Savagery against a single target, at least under certain simplifying assumptions. Let's say Bloody Thrash saves you 35 energy every 15 seconds -- it costs you an extra 15 energy to cast thrash instead of rake, but then you save 50 energy from not having to cast thrash as well. Meanwhile, we'll assume Savagery saves you the price of a 5-CP savage roar every 42 seconds. Savage roar costs either 5 (with SotF) or 25 (without SotF) energy and we'll denote by p its effective combo point cost (due to primal fury), where

    p := 5 + crit*(crit^2+3*crit*(1-crit)^2+(1-crit)^4).

    The latter term in that expression is the chance to get 4 CP and then crit again afterward (thereby wasting a CP).

    To complete the comparison, all we need is a relation between energy and combo points. To find this, let's assume energy is spent on the filler CP builder, shred, while combo points are spent on the filler finisher, ferocious bite (at 50 energy). That is, saturation of higher-priority abilities is assumed. So we have the equations

    shred damage + (1+crit) combo points = 40 energy
    bite damage + sotf*(20 energy) = 50 energy + p combo points

    where sotf is 1 if you have soul of the forest and 0 otherwise. Solving for combo points, we get

    combo point = (bite damage + (sotf/2 - 5/4)*(shred damage)) / (p - (sotf/2 - 5/4)(1+crit))

    and from this we can find the value of energy as

    energy = (shred damage)/40 + (1+crit)/40 combo point.

    Using typical live figures, we might have

    shred damage = 138k
    bite damage = 277k [at 50 energy]
    crit = 0.576 (so p = 5.39)

    (these were figures from my own character, absent procs, at some point this year), whence with soul of the forest,

    combo point = 26.4k
    energy = 4.49k

    and thus

    combo point = 5.88 energy; [CP-energy relation with SotF]

    and without soul of the forest,

    combo point = 14.2k
    energy = 4.01k

    and thus

    combo point = 3.54 energy. [CP-energy relation without SotF]

    Using these figures, with SotF, Savagery saves an equivalent of 5 + 5.88*5.39 = 36.7 energy every 42 seconds; and without SotF, Savagery saves 25 + 3.54*5.39 = 44.1 energy every 42 seconds. Thus, the savings might be summarized as

    Bloody Thrash: 2.33 energy/second
    Savagery (with SotF): 0.87 energy/second
    Savagery (without SotF): 1.05 energy/second

    i.e. Bloody Thrash easily beats Savagery against a single target. I consider this good news: Savagery, in its present form, should never be the best option.

    Of course, I'm using live figures to assess a level 100 talent, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Consider this just a preliminary estimate: the figures I have used are likely to change a great deal in Warlords

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by theostrichsays View Post
    It will be nice for people who are just starting/learning feral along with people who play alts... Seriously have seen some abysmal uptimes in flex/lfr.
    I have to disagree with you.
    1. Because this is a level 100 talent the new 'player' or alt will still have had to use SR all through their leveling experience.
    2. Removing SR from the rotation isn't a good example of training wheels. SR is not something that you can ease into the rotation after you haven't used it. It's an all or nothing type of experience, and one that might cause confusion and frustration after learning to play with out it.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    snip
    I'd say bloody thrash will be an easy transition for most ferals (assuming stupid fucking moonfire isn't miles better). Given that thrash was usually used to consume ooc procs it's pretty reflexive for most ferals and now that dots are set it and forget it, feral should be the ultimate afk dps spec.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    lol nice way of working it

    it is this pretty much, having it passive is indeed to make the play style more easy, but it does boost your power as you can save those 5 CP and 25 energy, every 40 seconds and you probely end up using them for a FB

    - - - Updated - - -

    i cant thionk of a fight that would have no use for moonfire?

    its still sceptical, but some poeple thing this will only be used for ranged CP's, i think it will be used instead of a single shred, as it will have a higher DPE (if you let the dot tick). but we wont know for sure until we test in the beta.
    but i am right then moonfire will always work, and bloody trash will just be overpower at aoe fights, and savaragy will just be to make it easyer to play
    Yes it depends n the DPE which will need to be similar to Rake for it to be a reasonable choice. Also caster form makes you slow and squishy which is problematic.

  20. #20
    The Patient theostrichsays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinderhoof View Post
    I have to disagree with you.
    1. Because this is a level 100 talent the new 'player' or alt will still have had to use SR all through their leveling experience.
    2. Removing SR from the rotation isn't a good example of training wheels. SR is not something that you can ease into the rotation after you haven't used it. It's an all or nothing type of experience, and one that might cause confusion and frustration after learning to play with out it.
    I made a post to respond back to what you said, realized I could sum it up with your right.
    If someone levels up as resto and wants to go feral over boomy for farming/questing/sandbox zone purposes then maybe it would have some value for holding hands.
    It will still raise the dps of some crap ferals in LFR/Flex I have seen though... honestly sub 50 percent roar uptimes... I've seen worse also, I don't think the addons that tell people what to do next would help some of them with their uptimes, so maybe that higher floor much lower roof would have use. If someone is never removing the training wheels anyways it wont matter.

    Also read this stuff about rogue cps going on the player not the target (potentially)... that would be bloody wonderful. I dislike some of the changes (snapshotting I am not a pro or anything but it was nice to separate myself as a above average feral) but the cp thing would be a lovely QoL improvement.

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