Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Umm... but if the only place where you can die is in such scenario. Then:

    a) The boss just melee swings you -> You won't die regardless of gearing.
    b) The boss uses a nuke which could kill you, but you obviously cover them with AM/CD. -> You won't die regardless of gearing.

    Maybe the only exception are extremely hard hitting bosses, like Horridon (after Enrage) and Ra-Den.
    Assuming perfectly play from tanks/healers, yes, you would not die regardless of gearing. However mistakes will happen. Assuming a perfect tank and imperfect healer, the perfect tank will be more likely to die to boss melees going unmitigated due to sheer chance than to a broadcasted and known spike mechanic. Assuming the imperfect tank and perfect healer, the tank will be more likely to die to broadcasted and known spike mechanics due to being larger, quicker spikes in damage that cannot be healed unless mitigated. The point of gearing/play as a tank is to assume the imperfect healer who may not always get off that clutch heal when you take a spike in damage, while the point of gearing/play as a healer is to assume the imperfect tank who is more likely to take those unpredictable spikes in damage.

  2. #22
    To start with, all my posts are directed towards 10 man raiding unless otherwisely specified, since I raid 10 man, I do not pretend to know squat about 25 man raid tanking.

    Oh, I am not saying that patchwerk models are useless and checking in 4 swing periods etc. It is good to check, but basing your gearing 100% on it is just retarded. It is just another parameter, another detail to take into consideration.

    First off, you completely misunderstood my meaning of no bosses have a static 1.5s swing timer, almost every boss do technically, but a lot of bosses have things they do that interrupt their swing timer. Either by stopping to channel a spell or just cancelling their swing timer for an insta cast.

    Take Ji-Kun for example, while his swing timer is 1.5s, you are more likely to recieve an auto attack every 2.5-3 seconds, considering you using 2 tanks that means each tank will take a melee hit every 5-6 seconds over the duration of the fight. What this mean is that your SotR uptime gets artificially increased (since naturally I dont cast SotR while Ji-Kun casts feed young, I use the time to build up HoPo.)
    Other fights that includ tank swaps, what this means is that you have time to build up HoPo between the tank swaps, say you swap tanks every 60 seconds. That means that you can build up 5 HoPo before you even start tanking. Suddenly your 75% uptime becomes 85% uptime.
    This also works well with cooldown stacking (such as HA).
    The same elements can be found in almost every boss fight, there are times you can bank up HoPo to artificially increase your uptime during the parts that matter.

    From a 10 man PoV, boss auto attacks in themselves are just completely non-interesting. If I dont use SotR for 6 seconds to bank up HoPo when the boss melee hits me, I still keep myself on 100% health at all times without external help. 10 man bosses just hit like wet noodles. It does not take any healer attention.

    This just lends itself to my original point, that windows of time which don't conform to a patchwerk-style scenario of boss melee+raid damage are the ones that we look and plan for. They will be adequately covered regardless of gearing, and are therefore largely irrelevant to the discussion of gearing.
    Which brings you back to my standpoint. Since the "dangerous" parts are adequately covered regardless of gearing, and all other parts i.e. boss patchwerking you is also irrelevant, the only thing left to base your gearing on is DPS and HPS. Yay for haste.


    I will also concede that mastery is undervalued by the outlook, however I would argue that it is not by as much as you state. Predictable periods of high damage intake are already survivable with mastery we gain innately from gear. While increasing mastery does increase the damage reduction during those periods of high damage and increase survivability some, it is diminished by the fact that those periods would have been survivable anyway due to the simple fact that they are known and can be planned for.
    Again, this is why haste is the best stat. Regardless of how we gear, survivability is a non-issue. Mastery is as undervalued as I state in terms of pure survivability on most fights (not on fights like ra-den like you mentioned later), but the fact that it provides nothing for dps output brings it out of the question.

    As a 10 man tank I only care about the dangerous predictable situations, but they are easily survivable. If they were more dangerous, I would gear for mastery, but in current state I go for haste, but that is not because I want more coverage on some completely irrelevant boss melee swings between the dangerous situations, that is because I want dps and hps.

    We can also look to the opposite extreme in a fight that is similar to Ra-den p2
    I am not disagreeing with you, this is exactly my point. Each boss fight is unique, gear accordingly. Though you got to admit that in this tier, the ra-den p2 type of fights is not the norm, they are the outliers. Im just playing the devils advocate whenever someone tries to imply that 1 gearing strategy is the one and only way to go trying to enlighten them that there are more ways to go.

    Again, though, those points are at known times and planned for extensively. Those will be covered regardless of your gearing choice provided you are playing at an appropriate level, so they are largely irrelevant to discussions of gear, except to note that mastery is slightly undervalued when looking only at small windows of time.
    Pretty much what I said in the others but yeah, in 10 man, those small windows are often the only important part in survivability.

    In those situations when you can guarantee SotR for a spike in damage, yes mastery will be superior to stamina, which is why the interaction between haste and mastery is so important. However without 100% uptime on SotR you *cannot* guarantee that you will have SotR for every spike in damage (this is by definition, as having SotR up for the spike would prevent the spike in the first place) which is where the passive increase in survivability gained from stamina becomes valuable
    Of course I can guarantee 100% uptime of SotR during e.g. Horridon puncture and direcall, what horridon does in between them I could not care less about.

    The day I die from a spike from Horridons auto attacks between the tripple punctures and dire calls, I will ride a bicycle naked through my city singing ABBAs dancing queen while holding a banner that says 'I love avoidance!' with a pair of dices painted on them. When the cops arrive at the scene I will ask them to hit me with their sticks and every time they miss me I will yell "DODGE!"

    On 10 man?
    Well yeah, as I mentioned, I raid 10 man, my PoV is from that. 10 and 25 man tanking is fundamentally different. Anyone that claims otherwise is just clueless. The boss melee hits can actually be dangerous in 25 man, which just completely alters how to gear.

    My point in closing is not to say that the sims are gospel, but rather that you greatly understate the value that they bring to the table.
    And I think plain logic is way to underestimated in the tanking community. Sims for melee swings is just completely uninteresting for 10 man tanks.

    All in all, I guess my closing point is, people should use their nature given minds and think for themselves what works on certain boss fights.
    The reason to gear certain ways are far deeper than what we wrote in these posts, this is only scratching the surface. A lot of stats got subtle interactions (especially haste), to explain why some stats are better than others would be a post that took up 5 pages.

    There is not one optimal gearing solution. In my opinion, the best generic 10 man prio (by no mean best gearing for every boss fight) is hit>exp7.5>haste>exp>crit>mastery>stamina>dodge>parry, removing the crit in favor of mastery and stamina for those less experienced tanks.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #23
    The day I die from a spike from Horridons auto attacks between the tripple punctures and dire calls, I will ride a bicycle naked through my city singing ABBAs dancing queen while holding a banner that says 'I love avoidance!' with a pair of dices painted on them. When the cops arrive at the scene I will ask them to hit me with their sticks and every time they miss me I will yell "DODGE!"
    DODGE ! You just made my day

    What swing timer does a regular cop have? And what special attack do cops use?

    Please post a WoL-Fightlog after the cop encounter.
    Last edited by Funky303; 2013-07-28 at 09:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Yeah, we hate humor and we do not allow it. Last time someone tried to be funny we tracked him down with his IP and broke his leg, then we forced him to race change all his characters to female dwarves. If you think you can be funny on my forums, think twice. (Also I will actually track down and kill anyone using that as a signature)
    Yes, they mean it! Got a broken leg, a female Dwarf and an infraction. Don't mess with humor folks !

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by javil View Post
    50% melee haste. This is because of the 1 second cap on the GCD. However, continue stacking haste past the 50% mark as it's still beneficial.
    yes and no. Its still beneficial for damage and trinket procs But in terms of pure damage reduction once you hit the cap most likely Stam>Mastery>haste

    However most people will not have a issue with the cap as most prot paladins will be using the stam+CD reduction trinket because 25 second DP is stupid lol. On the ptr right now with a like 552 ilvl and using the 14% str amplification trinket that gives like 2200 haste at my level+the stam CD reduction trinket. I'm still at like 45-47% haste. Im assuming that most people will not hit cap till at least full normal mode gear if not some heroic pieces without double haste trinkets.
    Last edited by momirmaster; 2013-07-28 at 11:31 PM.
    Mohots---Main
    Monopaly---Alt/old Main
    WhaleWars Alt

  5. #25
    Considering to sit down some day to calculate and write down all the significant haste breakpoints that come after 50%. Maybe some are even worth getting.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Considering to sit down some day to calculate and write down all the significant haste breakpoints that come after 50%. Maybe some are even worth getting.
    Theck already mathed em out in an earlier blog post, though I don't remember the exact numbers off hand. 30k+ was the next after 50% though if I remember correctly.

    Edit: Found the numbers: http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/11/21...for-tankadins/

    The TL;DR is 100% is the next point where we see significant improvement in both dps and HPG, followed by 125% and 200%.
    Last edited by paoani; 2013-07-29 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by paoani View Post
    Theck already mathed em out in an earlier blog post, though I don't remember the exact numbers off hand. 30k+ was the next after 50% though if I remember correctly.
    That is the SS haste caps, I dont care about those. They are completely irrelevant as your SS should never fall off.

    I more care about the holy wrath caps and such.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #28
    Holy Wrath caps?!
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Holy Wrath caps?!
    Even though your GCD stops reducing at 50% haste, the cooldown of your spells does not. This is most significant on holy wrath but also to some extent avenger shield and judgment.

    When your Holy Wrath reaches 5 second cooldown for example at 80% haste, that means you can use it as a filler every 5 GCDs compared to every 6 GCDs, what this mean is that you can gain a substantional dps increase.

    For judgment that point is 100% haste, for AS that is 66% haste, however how important that AS one is considering the GC change is debatable, though even if you are close the the point it is still benefitial. There is also to consider the 1.5s GCDs that SS, LH and ES have.

    If you can reduce your holy wrath to 5.5 seconds (63% haste), that means that you can use holy wrath 1 GCD earlier after each time you used a 1.5s GCD spell, this can be seen as some sort of minor cap.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-29 at 12:09 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •