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  1. #1

    The possibilities of the new Evasion

    I would have posted this in the previous thread but as it got closed I decided to create a new thread.

    So, with the upcoming change to Evasion, increasing its dodge change to 100%, it opens up some possibilities. I've seen 25 warlocks and 25 DKs raid Heart of Fear. Perhaps the new Evasion could allow rogues do the same. Or at least do certain bosses in some raids. You may wonder how this could be possible. Let me explain.

    Glyph of Evasion increases the duration by 5 seconds and with Preparation, you can have up to 40 seconds of complete avoidance. Now, imagine a raid of 25 rogues with this. Each of them can "tank" the boss for 40 seconds. Then the rogue who is "tanking" the boss vanishes and then another rogue starts "tanking" it for another 40 seconds. And then they switch the "tank" again. And so on. They can keep doing this for pretty much forever if done properly. Threat can be managed with Tricks of the Trade. And the rogues who are not "tanking" the boss should be able to stay alive because of our good survivability. With Feint, Cloak of Shadows, Smoke Bomb, Recuperate and either Leeching Poison or Improved Feint, avoiding death is rather easy.

    However, this does have certain flaws. Some bosses cannot be done this way because they might have an ability which cannot be avoided. Also, fights with multiple mobs or specific mechanics might be a problem.

    What do you think? Do you think this could be possible?

  2. #2
    I think there is too much magic flying around to make this work on any MoP boss. I can't think of one right now at least.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  3. #3
    Too much raid AoE for it to be truly feasible. Maybe, MAYBE will of the emperor if the raid of rogues can survive the titan gas, given how much burst and control rogues can have over the adds, there really shouldn't be much in the way of damage between titan gas phases.

  4. #4
    Spiritbinder and 25 smokebombs would be fun to attempt.

  5. #5
    Dodge has a DR on it, so you wouldn't be completely unhitable for the 20sec duration.
    I'll tear you apart...
    Once my hand heals,
    I'll rip you apart...
    Tear you to shreds...
    Rip you into tiny pieces...
    And eat you! - Eren Yaeger

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Wounds View Post
    Dodge has a DR on it, so you wouldn't be completely unhitable for the 20sec duration.
    Wrong.

    Only dodge from gear has DR. Dodge from class abilities has no DR. 100% dodge from evasion is exactly 100% additional dodge. The same is true of the 45% dodge from savage defense, the 20% parry from dancing rune weapon, and the 4% parry from swordshattering, etc.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Wrong.

    Only dodge from gear has DR. Dodge from class abilities has no DR. 100% dodge from evasion is exactly 100% additional dodge. The same is true of the 45% dodge from savage defense, the 20% parry from dancing rune weapon, and the 4% parry from swordshattering, etc.
    Source on that? Cause that still has DR everything avoidance does.
    I'll tear you apart...
    Once my hand heals,
    I'll rip you apart...
    Tear you to shreds...
    Rip you into tiny pieces...
    And eat you! - Eren Yaeger

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Wounds View Post
    Source on that? Cause that still has DR everything avoidance does.
    Source? How about you log onto your rogue and hit evasion and check your dodge...

  9. #9
    Better hope your Prep doesn't go away come 5.4 : )
    “Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing.”

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Trialtm View Post
    Better hope your Prep doesn't go away come 5.4 : )
    Honestly, having a cooldown to reset cooldowns is horrible design. I would be all for the removing it... except as shown numerous times in the past, they quite often don't give you anything to compensate for their changes.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Wounds View Post
    Source on that? Cause that still has DR everything avoidance does.
    http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-c..._85_cataclysm/

    The analysis was done in WotLK, but I've not seen anything stating it has changed.
    Scroll down and you'll see this:

    Avoidance stats now have diminishing returns
    This includes:
    1. Dodge from Dodge Rating, Defense Rating, Agility.
    2. Parry from Parry Rating, Defense Rating.
    3. Chance to be missed from Defense Rating.
    (Blue post)

    The following is the result of hours of work gathering data from beta servers and then spending even more time running multiple regression analysis on the data.

    1. DR for Dodge, Parry, Missed are calculated separately.
    2. Base avoidances are not affected by DR. (e.g. Dodge from base Agility, 5% base Parry, 5% base Missed)
    3. Death Knight's Parry Rating from base Strength is affected by DR.
    4. Direct percentage gains from talents and spells are not affected by DR. (e.g. 5% Dodge from talents, 4% Parry to weapon, 25 Defense to weapon)
    5. c and k values depend on class but does not change with level.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Wounds View Post
    Source on that? Cause that still has DR everything avoidance does.
    No, no e of those have any DR. Only rating (dodge rating direct and the dodge rating from agility) have any DR at all. Racials, abilities, anything that says 2% means 2%.

    Source: Press the goddamned c button.

    As for you prep haters, no. Prep is amazing design because you have a powerful button that does cool things, and you can choose to use it aggressively or cautiously unlike all the other shitty YOLO cooldowns. No, it should never have been a hunter thing, and probably not a mage thing, but rogues have always needed it.

    If it does go away, evasion, vanish, and sprint will get two charges, and maybe even dismantle (currently resetting this with prep is the dismantle perk- every disarm has a perk, this is dismantle's).

    But fuck that. Prep is amazing. And no rogue spec has ever been viable without it- and when it was gone, so were rogues.


    Anyway, on topic I doubt an all rogue raid will be as successful as the all DK raid, but anything really overgeared could work. Stone dogs, for instance. I think a 100% dodge will be amazing- but remember, so many things go through dodge. On the official forums someone was crying that a rogue "dodged" hammer of justice. It will put a lot of pressure on the pvp rogue to keep facing on the enemy, so be prepared to shiv paralytic. In PvE, if you plan on doing the 40 second evasion thing, remember that most bosses have a move on a much shorter cooldown than that that deals fatal unavoidable damage (a tank is supposed to use their active mitigation to survive)- but cheat death might work once. Also remember to stay high on the aggro chart- there is nothing in game to allow a rogue to taunt a raid boss.

  13. #13
    It's much better, it is stupid how the effectiveness of our major damage cd is so gear dependent. Though yes it does risk bringing back "Rogue tanks" like in late BC (though IIRC, they had 100% dodge PASSIVELY). Even late Wrath I think my dodge exceeded 100% while Evasion was up. Cataclysm stats never got inflated enough, think my dodge under Evasion hit 80-something in full HM DS gear.

    As it stands even with decent gear I pull a shitload of mobs, pop evasion and still die. I often use CR during Evasion if there's enough mobs because I still get hit often enough to justify it. This way Evasion will be a true immunity while it's up provided there aren't a lot of spellcasters. Think of questing - pull 100 mobs and as long as they die before Ev+Prep wears off...

    Rogue tanking may also work on specific fights. Any boss with big undodgeable attacks won't work, or any that do enough magic damage that only a tank can survive it. Rogue as an OT is a possibility. As for the OP's 25 rogue situation - possibly on a still smaller number of fights, the biggest obstacle being AoE damage. If it exceeds what recup + leeching + shiv can heal back then no, otherwise yes.

    However the biggest issue with Rogue tanking has always been the lack of threat generation. In a raid with a Rogue tank and a normal tank, the Rogue will never get aggro outside a symbiosis taunt (at least 1 druid required). In a 25-Rogue raid, the other Rogues would have to manage their threat to ensure the right Rogue got aggro for each Evasion chain, and threat could be reset via Vanish. Very hard but possible. Might involve delaying DPS etc.

    Of course Blizzard could "fix" the whole concept of Rogues tanking by simply making all boss attacks specifically ignore Evasion. If they consider it a big enough issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trialtm View Post
    Better hope your Prep doesn't go away come 5.4 : )
    If it did, Vanish and Evasion would get charges instead. Which would actually be better...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Wounds View Post
    Source on that? Cause that still has DR everything avoidance does.
    He's right, if Evasion says 50% it gives you exactly 50% on top of what you currently have. The amount of dodge % you get from dodge rating is what has DR - ie, the more dodge rating the less additional dodge % you get per point of rating. Dodge % itself is literal, 5% dodge is 5% dodge.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    But fuck that. Prep is amazing. And no rogue spec has ever been viable without it- and when it was gone, so were rogues.
    Ugh, wrong. You may not have been playing then, but it is absolutely false to say "ever."

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    As for you prep haters, no. Prep is amazing design because you have a powerful button that does cool things, and you can choose to use it aggressively or cautiously unlike all the other shitty YOLO cooldowns. No, it should never have been a hunter thing, and probably not a mage thing, but rogues have always needed it.

    If it does go away, evasion, vanish, and sprint will get two charges, and maybe even dismantle (currently resetting this with prep is the dismantle perk- every disarm has a perk, this is dismantle's).
    Charges are superior to Prep in every way. The number of times I've had to burn Prep even though Sprint and Evasion were still up because I desperately needed another Vanish... charges remove that problem. You can use each ability strategically.

    Frankly I'd be happy to trade Prep for simply reducing the CD on a lot of those abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    But fuck that. Prep is amazing. And no rogue spec has ever been viable without it- and when it was gone, so were rogues.
    So... we completely forget that until this expansion Prep was a Sub-only ability?

    P.S. When you had to choose between Prep or Shadstep, I personally always chose Shadstep.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2013-07-25 at 01:29 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Charges are superior to Prep in every way.
    No, you mean if rogues were given a 2 charge vanish, a 2 charge evasion, a 2 charge sprint, and a 2 charge dismantle, with the existing cooldowns remaining the same, that it would be MORE POWERFUL for the rogue.

    I'm assuming that they won't just flat out buff us under this situation. We would, for instance, likely lose a move from that stack, and the base cooldown on some might go up. I am saying that our gameplay would suffer under this idea, no matter how it is balanced.

    The number of times I've had to burn Prep even though Sprint and Evasion were still up because I desperately needed another Vanish... charges remove that problem. You can use each ability strategically.
    That's not a problem, it's good design. If you have to vanish prep vanish that's well played by your opponents (at least, now that vanish isn't bullshit).

    Frankly I'd be happy to trade Prep for simply reducing the CD on a lot of those abilities.
    I would not.



    So... we completely forget that until this expansion Prep was a Sub-only ability?
    Ugh, wrong. You may not have been playing then, but it is absolutely false to say "ever."
    Don't worry, you're both wrong!

    So, back in vanilla, rogues would often pvp as combat, because they raided as combat. Assassination was pretty crap- the big money was in cold blood, a 21-talent, and the 31-talent was awful. Full sub got you premed, which was interesting, but ultimately what you wanted if you were trying to solo people- especially overgeared people- was hemo/cold blood. This would get 21 points in assassination and 26 points in sub, with a couple here and there. You had to blow cooldowns like crazy, but in a time when two guaranteed crit evis was well over half a life pool, and blind had no DR, you had a pretty solid setup. Most CERTAINLY I would shred any mere combat or assassination rogue I had to solo- but I didn't have to rely on just personal experience. It was pretty much the best solo spec period, if you had the right toys to go with it (compared to any other spec with the same tricks).

    Moving to BC, we saw a season where there were some combat rogues get top rank- but rogue in general was bad this season. Mostly these rogues were carries compared to if they were on a better class- top players in a situation where there was still a lot of room for people to fuck around. Rogues were buffed before S2. During S2, you finally saw some shadowstep actually show up, but many rogues still had a similar spec to the cold blood / hemo spec! You also saw the dawn of HARP play being good in arenas. This was Hemo, Adrenaline Rush, and... Prep. The "Renataki Twins" (and a couple other gimmick comps) made waves by having specs WITHOUT prep, but these were RARE and abused either odd class synergies or even broken items (aka, the level 60 energy burst from Renaki plus the very good damage per energy of mutilate- mutilate was a VERY hard hitting move at launch). But outside of these outliers, you got prep.

    S3 and S4 saw a reduction in the play of HARP, as AR was taken off Prep. Around this time you could finally use shadowstep outside of stealth, so you saw rogues using that plus an actually useful cheat death to stay in arenas. But, all specs used prep here.

    Going into Lich King, we could finally go back to that old hemo/cold blood spec, and dig the cold blood side all the way down to mutilate. This meant that muti/prep was mostly the king of LK pvp. You DID see deep sub sometimes, because dance could do what cold bloodon't, and you also saw some SHARP, the old HARP but going down to surprise attacks. Rarely would you see someone spree in arena, or hunger for blood, and by ignoring the top talents, you got PREP.

    Enter Cata, where you had to be sub to have prep. The other specs were finally balanced around not having access to prep. Or so they told us. I played hundreds of games as mutilate and combat over these seasons, and I have to use my own experience because no one was really doing anything else with A or C. Because they didn't have prep. And by not having prep, they sucked fucking ass through an acid straw.


    Then we hit the season....


    P.S. When you had to choose between Prep or Shadstep, I personally always chose Shadstep.
    That was during the season where rogues were at <1% pop, right? And Reckful did just fine without prep. Because he was a warrior. Good season, good point, good story.


    Fuck that. Rogues need prep. Yea, yea, if they put two charges on everything it would be amazing. But I like having a POWERFUL COOLDOWN that if I TIME CORRECTLY it's good, and if I force my opponent to fuck up, he gets screwed.


    I don't get the prep hate. And I am so sick, so absolutely preciously sick, of rogues and others hating on prep constantly. Every other dumb MMO has a rogue. My SWTOR character is a rogue with a shotgun. Rift has rogues. Warhammer has rogues. Everquest has rogues. But you know what? None of those guys have prep, and if you play them, you miss it.

    WHY do you think- even for a BRIEF moment- that if they took prep away, they would compensate us for it? Check the season count guys, it's 13 seasons and they haven't been able to once provide a rogue spec that is viable without prep- and whenever a spec without prep did ok, even in SMALL numbers (like less than a dozen), it was nerfed. And all those seasons where you COULD pick to play without it? Those specs never got any compensation. Cata was the perfect time to test the theory that rogues were fine without prep. Two out of three specs could under no circumstances get prep. There were baseline moves given free when you chose a spec, and anything about that early part of the talent tree was not accessible. And mutilate was shit, and combat was shit. They could have done whatever they were gonna do, and made mutilate like an arms warrior with charges and leaps, or made combat like a frost DK with grips and burst damage. Instead they just said, fuck that.


    So, yea, we need prep. Accept no substitutes.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-07-25 at 04:13 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Moving to BC, we saw a season where there were some combat rogues get top rank- but rogue in general was bad this season. Mostly these rogues were carries compared to if they were on a better class- top players in a situation where there was still a lot of room for people to fuck around. Rogues were buffed before S2. During S2, you finally saw some shadowstep actually show up, but many rogues still had a similar spec to the cold blood / hemo spec! You also saw the dawn of HARP play being good in arenas. This was Hemo, Adrenaline Rush, and... Prep. The "Renataki Twins" (and a couple other gimmick comps) made waves by having specs WITHOUT prep, but these were RARE and abused either odd class synergies or even broken items (aka, the level 60 energy burst from Renaki plus the very good damage per energy of mutilate- mutilate was a VERY hard hitting move at launch). But outside of these outliers, you got prep.
    No, you're wrong, sorry. And HARP was S3 btw. Combat maces was solid and rogues were very viable in S1/2. Don't forget 2s counted back then as well even if we were sub par in 5s. Basically no top rogues played anything but combat maces until later on in BC. You also didn't get prep as combat maces. This disproves your claim of "ever" so I don't really even see a point in touching anything else.

    Also, I don't think they really buffed shadowstep till S4 or close to it (talking the incarnation where you could use out of stealth and it buffed your next special) and it wasn't that good of an option until that point.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-07-25 at 05:43 AM.

  18. #18
    Take a second and cool off.

    You can disagree with each other or be emphatic about your position, but we don't need to get pissy at each other or edge on insults/cursing. Take a breath before posting if you need to.

    When did Prep become such a hot issue?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    No, you're wrong, sorry.
    I just gave a full account of rogue pvp over the seasons.

    And HARP was S3 btw.
    S3 was what got it nerfed. It was a thing in S2.

    Combat maces was solid and rogues were very viable in S1/2.
    And HARP had that mace stun talent too.

    Don't forget 2s counted back then as well even if we were sub par in 5s. Basically no top rogues played anything but combat maces until later on in BC. You also didn't get prep as combat maces. This disproves your claim of "ever" so I don't really even see a point in touching anything else.
    I mentioned that combat had some use early on in BC. But rogues were very underrepped, and no, not "every top rogue' was combat maces. Rogues didn't have much rep until later in the expac, after a giant sheet of buffs fell from the sky.

    But thanks for trying to dispute one thing in my post, and then "not touching" the rest. Of course you can't "touch" it. What would you do? Bask in its correctness? What a ludicrous quote.

    Also, I don't think they really buffed shadowstep till S4 or close to it (talking the incarnation where you could use out of stealth and it buffed your next special) and it wasn't that good of an option until that point.
    Incorrect. It was one patch after voice chat (2.2), which people on the official forums are asking to be added to the game because they don't know it's been a never-used-ever feature since BC.


    http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_2.3.0

    "Shadowstep (Subtlety) can now be used at any time, not only while stealthed. Now increases the damage and reduces the threat caused by the next damaging ability. Cooldown increased to 30 seconds. Range changed to 25 yards. (Minimum range removed)"

    Season 3 started with this patch, and HARP's popularity got it nerfed. But no, it was definitely popular in S2 as well- in fact, S2 was the only patch that rogues could really end the season with the spec.

    Midseason we got:
    "Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush.
    Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase."

    And all that was before S3 ended. This change really hurt HARP- it wasn't a top pick any more.



    When did Prep become such a hot issue?
    Pretty much every cooldown discussion on this forum, or the official forum, or really anywhere except EJ, has at least one guy who comes in and talks about how "prep is bad game design" or whatever. Sometimes it's a non-rogue who just hates rogues and wants them nerfed. Othertimes it's a rogue who is either uncomfortable with the move or believes that wild buffs will fall from the sky if we can just make those mean old devs get rid of prep. But, there's been adequate time for the devs to design a rogue spec- or two of them in some cases- without prep. And when they try, they fall over on their face. The amount of defenses rogues would need to replace prep in arena are pretty shocking. This new thing seems more like buff wrangling- hunters didn't really lose readiness, for instance, as you'll note they mostly got their good abilities to have two charges- but there were some duration nerfs. The thing is, the change above- "prep no longer resets adrenaline rush" - is really what this hunter change is about, because on live they have offense tied to the move. Before we go trumpeting this double charge thing as a triumph of game design, maybe we should see it go live first, etc.

    Oh, and then there's just people who think a second vanish is unfair. That's a huge selling point of the class though.

    The thing is, the people who think they don't like prep just casually throw that out there, and usually no one bothers to call them on it. The first season of this expansion had prep as an option instead of a gap closer, and the class was just shitballs in pvp. Did Reckful call out for changes? No, he's pro. He just rolled warrior, and said it was because he prefers their burst or something. He sidestepped it completely. Most rogues would miss prep- would really be angry to see it go, especially if the replacement was anything but a bunch of buffs from the sky (vanish/evasion/sprint/dismantle all have two charges!). But they don't normally call people on it.

    So I do. I think it's important.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I just gave a full account of rogue pvp over the seasons.
    S3 was what got it nerfed. It was a thing in S2.
    And HARP had that mace stun talent too.

    I mentioned that combat had some use early on in BC. But rogues were very underrepped, and no, not "every top rogue' was combat maces. Rogues didn't have much rep until later in the expac, after a giant sheet of buffs fell from the sky.
    HARP was a spec, but it wasn't as good as full combat maces before they changed hemo which happened in that patch you just linked. Combat maces was far superior up to that point and was the most popular pvp spec. And you say that was the S3 patch which sounds right which again supports my point that combat maces (which didnt have prep) was viable. And of course HARP could get the stun... why do you think I've been saying 'combat maces'? Thats what people called it back then... you never called HARP combat maces just because you got the stun...

    We weren't that underrepped. We paired up rather well with the majority of the OP classes in 2s and 3s in season 1 and 2.

    You got me on the date for the shs buff though. I guess I forgot it happened because HARP>>>>>>>>shs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    But thanks for trying to dispute one thing in my post, and then "not touching" the rest. Of course you can't "touch" it. What would you do? Bask in its correctness? What a ludicrous quote.
    It might be, but I don't know cause I didn't bother reading it thus why I said I wasn't going to touch it as in READ or discuss it.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-07-25 at 07:01 AM.

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