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  1. #21
    Oh that thing where you don't read the post, but respond anyway. Super. Forums are to not read stuff I think.

    You know what was better than rogue + OP class? OP class + OP class.

    --


    Anyway, to address the topic again:

    I think that the evasion buff will be solid because pretty much every other cooldown like this has similar design in the modern day. Evasion is pretty easily countered- not only do spells go through it as you would expect, but the myraid of talent CC all is off the melee hit table- even ones that didn't used to be, like the druid stun. It will also fix this:

    "Somerogue dodges Verain's Gouge"
    "Verain uses evasion"
    "Verain is stunned by Somerogue's Kidney shot"

    I will in general welcome this, as the relatively low avoidance passively (especially combined with the high frontal avoidance on plate classes, who still have their armor) has meant that in any kind of toe to toe we end up eating a lot of damage whenever our opponent isn't controlled- and that's not MUCH more often than WE are controlled.

    It's also been said that evasion is too gear dependent, and I think that's a fair complaint. If you start out with 20% avoidance, your chance to be hit during evasion is 30%. If you can up that 20% to a 30%, then you eliminate a third of incoming blows under evasion.

    I also think this will be an excellent play versus hunters, whom I really thought evasion was going to prove effective against when we were able to dodge ranged attacks- but in practice, I get chewed up pretty hard anyway, being pretty healthirsty even with evasion active, with a bunch of stunnypets behind me and whatever. A full 100% should really help during the uncontrolled portion of that, and definitely versus that ridiculous unbreakable webflareroot.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-07-25 at 07:18 AM.

  2. #22
    I came back to see if there were any replies, but it seems this derailed quite fast. Please try to stay on-topic, this thread is not about whether Preparation is good or bad design. Someone create another thread about that if they wish to continue.

    Now, some on-topic stuff. I remembered that Smoke Bomb can be glyphed to have a duration of 7 seconds, so with 25 rogues, that's 175 seconds of 20% damage reduction. And as the cooldown of Smoke Bomb is 180 seconds, it can have almost 100% uptime. This could help a lot as some mentioned that there is a lot of AoE damage going on. If there is sustained AoE in the fight, Smoke Bomb along with Feint should reduce enough damage to survive without healers. If there is burst AoE, like some sort of explosion, it can be avoided with Cloak.

    It would be nice if someone could make a list of bosses in MoP which could potentially be done and if not, tell why those bosses cannot be done, e.g. unavoidable attack which instantly kills etc.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Oh that thing where you don't read the post, but respond anyway. Super. Forums are to not read stuff I think.

    You know what was better than rogue + OP class? OP class + OP class.
    Yeah, when you wrote a giant freaking wall of text that was irrelevant and I clearly marked the specific part I was replying too... don't see a problem. You also had it nicely organized so I could find the part that mattered. Its like grabbing a world history textbook to check the section on the Great Depression; flip to it, read the relevant sections, put the book back.

    We weren't UP though and we were in several of the stronger team comps meaning we were certainly viable.

    As for 100% in pvp, I can't really see the problem compared to some of the other stuff in game now. And every single class has a way to get around 100% dodge and still damage / kill a rogue with evasion up.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Wounds View Post
    Source on that? Cause that still has DR everything avoidance does.
    Rating has DR, flat % gains do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos- View Post
    I literally die every time i see people using literally wrong.

  5. #25
    Just off the top of my head. Ill do MSV. Probably forgot some abilities and things so forgive that. It's just what I can remember of the encounters.

    Before that just a thought on tank rotation and swapping. I would have all rogues hold tricks for specific targets. On the pull you have 2-3 rogues roll tricks on rogue 1 back to back to guarantee threat for the duration of evasion. Meanwhile you have another 2 rogues rolling tricks on rogue 2 ( who will take over tanking duty next) so he is 2nd on the threat table. When the swap comes vanish, boom swap done.

    Stone Guards - doable, could see a full raid of muti rogues, with the use of tricks, say 3 tricks back to back to 3 rogues to start tanking a boss each, then go full ham before they reach full power, if you are slow Bomb + feint would see you through this.

    Feng - cant see it. To much magic damage from the spirit ultimates. Not to mention he does shadow bolts every 10 secs?


    Spiritbinder - doable - avoid the totems, run a constant bomb rotation to avoid the bolts. Again some form of tricks rotation to specific rogues to aid in tanking. And being dragged in on the tank mechanic should not be a problem.

    SpiritKings - doable. Recup + feint the crushes for first boss while avoiding the annhailates.
    Have the rogues spread for the raining arrows for the hunter boss.
    25 interrupts to kick casts + cloak to deal with shadow add that spawns for the shadow boss.
    Finally I think the Rage boss will be the hardest. Trying to deal with the damage reflect + the mind control. But you can reset the damage reflect dot with cloak? Rolling feint + bombs for the mind control and maybe have just one rogue use aoe to free others from control.

    Elegon - can't see this on happening. Only way would be to keep stacks low with excessive use of bombs and feints and cloaks, haven't done the math on recup vs the incoming dmg maybe someone smarter then me in that area could do it?

    Will of the Emperor - cant actually see this one happening. Everything about the fight is good until I think about swapping rogues to tank the bosses with the magnetic armour and no actual taunt I can't see how it would work without losing half your raid in the process.

  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    This logic only works if the boss only does melee hits and light aoe. you wouldn't get past the 2nd boss in HoF

  7. #27
    Tanking rogue, coming to you in 5.4.

    No it doesn't seem very plausible.

  8. #28
    i found this new evasion change to be REALLY good on fallen protectors with mark of anguish

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post

    However the biggest issue with Rogue tanking has always been the lack of threat generation. In a raid with a Rogue tank and a normal tank, the Rogue will never get aggro outside a symbiosis taunt (at least 1 druid required). In a 25-Rogue raid, the other Rogues would have to manage their threat to ensure the right Rogue got aggro for each Evasion chain, and threat could be reset via Vanish. Very hard but possible. Might involve delaying DPS etc.
    the symbiosis taunt doesn't work on like 95% of boss fights. Or rogues would have been off-tanking a few fights last tier.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by rayanne View Post
    the symbiosis taunt doesn't work on like 95% of boss fights. Or rogues would have been off-tanking a few fights last tier.
    Man, is there even a 5%?

    It's pretty clear that the symbiosis growl ability is only useful for PvP. It has no function in a raid that I've found.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Man, is there even a 5%?

    It's pretty clear that the symbiosis growl ability is only useful for PvP. It has no function in a raid that I've found.
    I threw in 5% for the adds on WoE, where we actually got to (sort of) tank something.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by rayanne View Post
    I threw in 5% for the adds on WoE, where we actually got to (sort of) tank something.
    Irrelevent. The courages do nothing until they reach their target, the Rages fixate, and the Strengths don't melee. Generally speaking if a rogue has symbiosis it's because it's incredibly useful for a balance druid to have cloak.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gooby View Post
    i found this new evasion change to be REALLY good on fallen protectors with mark of anguish
    So did a lot of rogues, which is why that mechanic was either fixed to have a 100% hit, or evasion is bugged on that encounter.

    As of Flex-testing Sunday Night, Evasion was not dodging a single hit from Mark of Anguish.

    If I had to guess though, they just changed the mechanic to always hit to force you to do the mechanic right. Can't just toss it to a tank and forget about it, or throw it to a pair or trio of rogues and get 40-60 seconds of evasion.

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