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  1. #1

    Twins Heroic 10 man Celestial Order

    Background:
    2 Healing Resto shaman (me) and Holy Paladin
    Guardian Druid, Prot Pally
    Fury Warrior, Rogue, Enhance Shammy, Shadow Priest, Affliction Lock, Fire Mage (top dps and drawer)

    We just started progression on this last night, we are only 4/12 and due to the fact that we find Tortos very frustrating because we don't really 3 heal anything and when we tried to 3 heal Tortos we can't keep steady dps on bats amongst other things. So we tried Twins and faired alot better 2 healing this one. Damage seems more predictable here.

    At the start of the fight I have been running Chi-ji letting the holy pally 1 heal the first 10 seconds and getting that damage in on Lu-lin quickly. After that we did Ox going into the transition to Day Phase and Yu'lon directly after. Never used Blue in the first 2 phases (is there a good time to?)

    We havn't had much work on Dusk phase yet but was just curious if its the standard ---
    Xuen into the transition for the Tidal Force #1 and Ox/Yulon as needed. I've seen some interesting orders on youtube but its hard to see reasoning why people draw what they draw at specific times. I seem to always see people using Chi-ji only when Lu'lin is alone.

    Just seeing what everybody else is doing and why. I'd like to get the best use of out of them based on the fact that we are 2 healing this without a disc priest which seems abnormal.

    Thanks friends!

  2. #2
    First of all, going for Twins while 4/13 might be a big step. While Twins isn't a difficult fight, it definitely has a significant DPS check. While I'm sure you're left with a lockout that has killed Iron Qon, next week I'd try focusing more on Horridon (assuming your heroic kills are Jin'rokh, Tortos, Ji-kun, and Iron Qon). Otherwise, go for one of the ones in the parentheses.

    Now to your question. Our strategy involves using Xuen during the first night phase while Suen is channeling her first ability. The tank taunts her while she is spinning and brings her to the center. The person with Xuen stalls the completion until Suen is about half done with her cast. Once she is, we call for him to complete the puzzle, thus resetting her cast bar and slowing it down significantly. This allows for a solid amount of DPS on both Lu'lin and Suen. We save all remaining Celestials until the night phase. The goal of the night phase would be to get Lu'lin to approximately 45% on your first kill before she fades into the day phase. If you're meeting that mark, your DPS is on par.

    We then use Chi'ji at the start of the day phase in order to pummel as much DPS as we can into Suen. Remember, in order for you to stop the tidal waves from hitting your raid in phase 3, Suen has to be dead. We also use Heroism/Bloodlust at the start of the day phase. Afterwards we use the remaining Celestials -- Niuzao after the first Nuclear Inferno and Yu'lon after the second (for mana).

    Once the dusk phase begins, we again prepare Xuen and use it just before Lu'lin begins to channel her tidal waves, thus slowing them down and making them easily avoidable. The goal on your first kill would be to have only 2 (MAYBE 3) channels of the tidal waves, otherwise the damage will be quite high. Burn Suen while she's not channeling her ability, otherwise DPS Lu'lin while you're stacked for the Nuclear Inferno. After Xuen you can use whatever you'd like, including Chi'ji.

    I cannot remember what we used at progression (Chi'ji IIRC), and now we kill Suen during Lu'lin's first tidal waves (sometimes before).

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire
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    We 3 heal it with one healer doing the celestials.

    P1: Start with Chi-Ji so that the cranes hit both Lu'lin and Suen. Your mage could keep his combustion abit (if she/he is fire ofc) and spread it to Suen. (Requires that Suen is charged by a tank so that she will appear near Lu'lin for the first AOE). If your Mage is your best DD, why do you let him draw...waste of damage) He will have aggro on Suen after combustion and could kite Suen for the adds (NP as fire mage without losing that much damage due to its good mobility). Other multidotters can dot Suen for extra damage if in range.
    P2: HT, Xuen for the first inferno, Ox for the 2nd and Yu'lon for the 3rd. Use CDs for each inferno, too (IF NECESSARY!)

    P3: Xuen as fast as possible so the 1st tidal wave is slowed, Yu'lon for the 1st inferno in P3 and maybe Chi-Ji for damage on both bosses or Ox for the 2nd tidal wave.
    Suen should be down before the 2nd inferno. If Suen is casting inferno, don't forget to deal damage on Lu'lin
    Last edited by Smaikiii; 2013-07-25 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord
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    We use 2 healers and we use them this way:
    Chi-ji on pull.
    P2: Yulon on second inferno (we use smokebomb on first and devo on 3rd)
    P3: Xuen first Tidal waves
    P3/4: Chi-ji whenever its up again.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bclumas View Post
    First of all, going for Twins while 4/13 might be a big step. While Twins isn't a difficult fight, it definitely has a significant DPS check. While I'm sure you're left with a lockout that has killed Iron Qon, next week I'd try focusing more on Horridon (assuming your heroic kills are Jin'rokh, Tortos, Ji-kun, and Iron Qon). Otherwise, go for one of the ones in the parentheses.

    Now to your question. Our strategy involves using Xuen during the first night phase while Suen is channeling her first ability. The tank taunts her while she is spinning and brings her to the center. The person with Xuen stalls the completion until Suen is about half done with her cast. Once she is, we call for him to complete the puzzle, thus resetting her cast bar and slowing it down significantly. This allows for a solid amount of DPS on both Lu'lin and Suen. We save all remaining Celestials until the night phase. The goal of the night phase would be to get Lu'lin to approximately 45% on your first kill before she fades into the day phase. If you're meeting that mark, your DPS is on par.

    We then use Chi'ji at the start of the day phase in order to pummel as much DPS as we can into Suen. Remember, in order for you to stop the tidal waves from hitting your raid in phase 3, Suen has to be dead. We also use Heroism/Bloodlust at the start of the day phase. Afterwards we use the remaining Celestials -- Niuzao after the first Nuclear Inferno and Yu'lon after the second (for mana).

    Once the dusk phase begins, we again prepare Xuen and use it just before Lu'lin begins to channel her tidal waves, thus slowing them down and making them easily avoidable. The goal on your first kill would be to have only 2 (MAYBE 3) channels of the tidal waves, otherwise the damage will be quite high. Burn Suen while she's not channeling her ability, otherwise DPS Lu'lin while you're stacked for the Nuclear Inferno. After Xuen you can use whatever you'd like, including Chi'ji.

    I cannot remember what we used at progression (Chi'ji IIRC), and now we kill Suen during Lu'lin's first tidal waves (sometimes before).

    Good luck.
    Just wanted to let you know, our 4 kills are Jin, Jikun, Horridon and Iron qon. Tortos has been a royal pain in the ass with 2 healers , random tank gibs especially. So we are trying this instead. We currently have gotten to dusk once and it was quite a clean phase 2 with 41% on both Lulin and Suen. Granted our Rogues poisons fell off mid fight and he went from 150k usual dps to 85k. I think Suen would be around 31% if that had no happened.

    Alot of interesting advice here, seems like many of you do it differently. The reason we have our mage do it is because he's done it on normal and is very reliable. Granted if we 3 healed it (which usually just isnt fun for us, dps checks aren't great when we 3 heal, our 3rd healer is our Enhance shammy who throws out 180-200k dps) we could have a healer celestial run and not lose mage's dps.

    Thanks all for the replies and I know its unorthodox to go Twins for your 5th heroic, but it does not seem very difficult compared to other bosses. There's no random factor here except not getting the 2nd ice comet which seems very buggy.

    Thanks!

  6. #6
    We use Chi'ji during the firstTears of the SUn so it hits both of them, then we use Xuen at the start of the day phase to slow down the rate Suen gets Blazing Radiance stacks and also to possibly get a second comet early on. For the second Inferno we use Yulon, and the third Niazou. When they reset we use Xuen for the first Tidal Waves, Niazou for the second Tidal Waves, then Chi'ji whenever it'll hit both of them and Yulon when we need it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    Just wanted to let you know, our 4 kills are Jin, Jikun, Horridon and Iron qon. Tortos has been a royal pain in the ass with 2 healers , random tank gibs especially. So we are trying this instead. We currently have gotten to dusk once and it was quite a clean phase 2 with 41% on both Lulin and Suen. Granted our Rogues poisons fell off mid fight and he went from 150k usual dps to 85k. I think Suen would be around 31% if that had no happened.

    Alot of interesting advice here, seems like many of you do it differently. The reason we have our mage do it is because he's done it on normal and is very reliable. Granted if we 3 healed it (which usually just isnt fun for us, dps checks aren't great when we 3 heal, our 3rd healer is our Enhance shammy who throws out 180-200k dps) we could have a healer celestial run and not lose mage's dps.

    Thanks all for the replies and I know its unorthodox to go Twins for your 5th heroic, but it does not seem very difficult compared to other bosses. There's no random factor here except not getting the 2nd ice comet which seems very buggy.

    Thanks!
    This is what my group does for twin consorts
    2 heal - druid, shaman
    2 tank - blood dk, prot pali
    rest dps

    As the second tank (prot paladin) I draw all the patterns so essentially the dk solo tanks the second phase on and I take the boss whenever i come out for him to drop his stacks
    1st phase - Chi-ji at start
    2nd phase - Xuen (this is to cover you in case the 2nd ice comet doesn't come in time), Yulon, Ox
    3rd Phase - We only use the aspects for tidal force since the healers find healing the inferno much easier then tidal force. Xuen, Yulon, Ox (Only if you are going to get a 3rd tidal force)
    4th phase - Chi-ji

    As for Tortos if your tanks are randomly dieing it may be more of a tanking issue then a healing issue (I haven't seen your logs so I can't know for sure but it is something you should examine in your logs).

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    Just wanted to throw out there my group is 4/13 HM too jin/jikun/horridon/IQ and we are also going for Twins as the 5th due to high dps and replacing a healer or two and gearing them.

    Our comp is very similar to yours so I'm curious to see how you guys' Celestials go too, I don't wana suggest any methods as we are still trying to finetune them also, but we have hit enrage a few times, besides celestials, we are having trouble keeping everyone alive the whole fight.

  9. #9
    Tortos is simply a 2-healable fight. I don't know what kinds of healers you are using, but Holy Priests, Mistweaver Monks, and especially Restoration Druids are fantastic for this fight. Use 1 to 2 cooldowns around the time of the stomp such as Rallying Cry/Devotion Aura prior to the stomp and then a throughput cooldown such as Tranquility (with Spiritwalker's Grace) or Healing Tide Totem while the rockfalls are going on. Your Tortos tank should be vigilant about keeping their crystal buff active at nearly all times. Your bat tank (unless they're the same as the Tortos tank) should also keep their buff up in order to prevent the bats from healing.

    Three healing will actually make the healing portion of the Twins fight easier. While I see everyone above using the Chi'ji-first strat, we were running into the same issues as Bombino during our progression kills months ago. Using Xuen during the first Tears of the Sun will allow for higher levels of DPS on both bosses, and saving Chi'ji for phase 2 will allow for 100% of that damage to be dealt to Suen. If your raid chooses, using Chi'ji first during phase 3 will allow for a double set of full crane action. The hardest part of the entire phase is the dusk phase as there is constant AoE ticking fire damage, tidal waves, crashing stars, and a slew of other things going on. The sooner you can kill Suen, the sooner you will find yourself with a kill.

    Give it a try and you'll see what I mean. I would say, however, that using that strat would make you want to send someone OTHER than your mage down to start Xuen. This way your mage can build up a solid Comubstion and immediately throw it onto Suen for the 12-15 seconds of sustained DPS you will have on her.

    Good luck.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bclumas View Post
    Tortos is simply a 2-healable fight. I don't know what kinds of healers you are using, but Holy Priests, Mistweaver Monks, and especially Restoration Druids are fantastic for this fight. Use 1 to 2 cooldowns around the time of the stomp such as Rallying Cry/Devotion Aura prior to the stomp and then a throughput cooldown such as Tranquility (with Spiritwalker's Grace) or Healing Tide Totem while the rockfalls are going on. Your Tortos tank should be vigilant about keeping their crystal buff active at nearly all times. Your bat tank (unless they're the same as the Tortos tank) should also keep their buff up in order to prevent the bats from healing.

    Three healing will actually make the healing portion of the Twins fight easier. While I see everyone above using the Chi'ji-first strat, we were running into the same issues as Bombino during our progression kills months ago. Using Xuen during the first Tears of the Sun will allow for higher levels of DPS on both bosses, and saving Chi'ji for phase 2 will allow for 100% of that damage to be dealt to Suen. If your raid chooses, using Chi'ji first during phase 3 will allow for a double set of full crane action. The hardest part of the entire phase is the dusk phase as there is constant AoE ticking fire damage, tidal waves, crashing stars, and a slew of other things going on. The sooner you can kill Suen, the sooner you will find yourself with a kill.

    Give it a try and you'll see what I mean. I would say, however, that using that strat would make you want to send someone OTHER than your mage down to start Xuen. This way your mage can build up a solid Comubstion and immediately throw it onto Suen for the 12-15 seconds of sustained DPS you will have on her.

    Good luck.
    For Tortos we Use holy paladin and resto shaman (I logged on my disc priest who is ilvl 505 and it was terrible, shields were up longer, but top offs were slow) We have tried 1 tank (prot pally) 2 heal, 2 tank 2 heal, and 2 tank 3 heal. Prot PAlly doesnt seem tanky enough to stay up with bats and bites 1 tanking but we may re-visit this.

    As far as twins goes, we got to 40% 40% when dusk phase starts, if we drop our Enhance for a 2nd resto shaman (3 healers) we will lose 190-200k dps. I think that will put us more like 52% 52% at dusk ,if we 3 heal.

    I'm glad to see we have options on pushing more dps to Suen at the start (Xuen)

    Thanks for all the advice guys! We have a good 2.5 hour of progress on this coming up tonight in a few hours. We will be utilizing all of this advice to get us started on some solid attempts.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Berianther's Avatar
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    The reason a lot of groups use Xuen on the first inferno during p2 on twins is to be able to heal through the inferno without a comet in case the 2nd comet DOESN'T appear, especially if you 2 heal. DPS should not be an issue when 2 healing. You should always have a healer drawing when you 3 heal, and dps drawing when you 2 heal.

  12. #12
    We use Chi'ji during the firstTears of the SUn so it hits both of them

  13. #13
    For Twins you DO NOT want your top dps to be drawing, simple as that. Instead it should be your healer (if 3 healing) or the lowest dps (if 2 healing).
    As far as order goes: begin drawing chi-ji 10 seconds before P2 hits, activate when Suen spawns (coincides with bloodlust)
    Draw Xuen as soon as he is available after Crane rush (to make sure you have him up in case the 2nd comet doesnt spawn)
    Draw Xuen when P3 begins (For the first Tidal force, also drag Lu'lin to a far corner)
    Start drawing Niuzao 5-10 seconds before 2nd tidal force
    Draw Chi-ji whenever

    On our very first kill, which was couple months ago, we hit enrage but you can survive for quite a bit unless your tanks derp. We used 3 healers with 1 healer drawing. With the gear available now, enrage shouldnt be an issue
    Last edited by chopp; 2013-07-26 at 10:02 AM.

  14. #14
    P1:
    The last minute of the Phase can be tricky because there are many adds that do quite some dmg.
    We chain Ox -> Serpent -> Raid CDs
    P2:
    Cranes at the start, followed by Xuen for first Inferno.
    P3:
    Bloodlust + some Raid CDs for 1st Tidal Force, Serpent for 2nd, Xuen for 3rd, Ox for 4th.
    P4:
    Cranes for Added DPS, but if you have a DD drawing he should better stay and just DPS.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Berianther View Post
    The reason a lot of groups use Xuen on the first inferno during p2 on twins is to be able to heal through the inferno without a comet in case the 2nd comet DOESN'T appear, especially if you 2 heal. DPS should not be an issue when 2 healing. You should always have a healer drawing when you 3 heal, and dps drawing when you 2 heal.
    Had a pretty rough night progressing on this alot due to the 2nd comet never coming and alot of wasted attemtps. 2 Healing is pretty difficult with two pretty bad spread healing classes healing but what can you do.

    In our 20 wipes we did figure out what makes the 2nd comet not spawn and I thought I would share just in case anybody still has the issue regularly even on farm. When Suen does her first Charge/Fire Trail thing. Her Cooldown for Ice Comet will NOT tick during the charge, she will halt her cooldown timer on the ability. So if you have a ranged very far from Suen get charged, it royally fucks the timing on Ice comet. We tested this on our last 5 attempts. If you have all your range within 15 yards of Suen so the charge is very short, the 2nd Ice Comet will always come.

    If anything good came out of our attempts last night, it was that.

  16. #16
    Pit Lord
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    I believe it's Chi-Ji at the start, Xuen on first tidal waveand when you swap to day phase (with bloodlust), Yu'lon for second tidal wave, and not so sure about the ox.

    I am doing Chi-Ji at start as a healer, the off-tank is doing all the others.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest
    <Razzia>, US-Arthas | @Spotnick

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    Had a pretty rough night progressing on this alot due to the 2nd comet never coming and alot of wasted attemtps. 2 Healing is pretty difficult with two pretty bad spread healing classes healing but what can you do.

    In our 20 wipes we did figure out what makes the 2nd comet not spawn and I thought I would share just in case anybody still has the issue regularly even on farm. When Suen does her first Charge/Fire Trail thing. Her Cooldown for Ice Comet will NOT tick during the charge, she will halt her cooldown timer on the ability. So if you have a ranged very far from Suen get charged, it royally fucks the timing on Ice comet. We tested this on our last 5 attempts. If you have all your range within 15 yards of Suen so the charge is very short, the 2nd Ice Comet will always come.

    If anything good came out of our attempts last night, it was that.
    Well that's a completely new theory. I don't see how the duration of Suen's charge could affect the comet spawn timer since Lu'lin spawns the comet, not Suen.

  18. #18
    Celestials Usage

    Night
    Nothing

    Day
    Xenu (tiger) for first Nuclear Inferno (go in at -25s, then delay popping the last star until just before Nuclear Inferno casts)
    Yu'lon (serpent) for second Nuclear Inferno (go in at -20s, then delay popping the last star until just before Nuclear Inferno casts)
    Chi-ji (crane) whenever (just make sure it's more than -35s from Dusk or Celestials might bug out)

    Dusk
    Xenu for first Tidal Force (go in as soon as Dusk starts, then delay popping the last star until just before Tidal Force casts)
    Yu'lon for second Tidal Force (go in at -20s, then delay popping the last star until just before Tidal Force casts)
    Chi-ji whenever

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Well that's a completely new theory. I don't see how the duration of Suen's charge could affect the comet spawn timer since Lu'lin spawns the comet, not Suen.
    To me it's still a "Bug" but it is controllable by doing the method posted above. For whatever reason the Ice Comet cooldown HALTS during the charge animation and does not resume until Suen is back hitting the tank. I argued with our Holy PAladin for 30 minutes about it being a bug, he said Blizzard wouldn't allow a bug on a heroic boss this long. So we found a work around.... but I still think it's utter bullshit.

  20. #20
    just going to copy and past the post i made on my guild forums on how i do the celestials

    Phase 1:
    Enter crane about 4 seconds after the fight starts, complete it when there is around 2 seconds left on the light of day timer.

    Phase 2:
    wait until there is 25-30 seconds left until nuclear inferno then hit tiger. you will want a small speed boost to complete in time. You want to complete it at ~5 seconds left to inferno to give yourself time to find the comet.

    Wait until 20-25 seconds before second inferno and use ox.

    Finally wait until 20-25 seconds before third infero to use serpent.

    Phase:3
    You're going to want to start this phase be using tiger immediately when its back up. you will need a good speed boost to complete it in time before the first tidal wave.

    after tidal wave there will be about a 15 second gap until inferno, stack for it and once it is done run to ox. and use it right away to make sure you complete it in time for tidal wave. ( in fact the faster you complete it the better because ox buff lasts for 30 seconds.

    Same drill, wait for the inferno to complete then use serpent before the next tidal wave is out.

    Phase4:
    use cranes
    collect phat lootz

    you can switch in a cranes during dusk but i d=usually do it in phase 4 because we aren't close to the enrage timer. and you realy do need big cd's or celestials for the tidal waves or people are going to die
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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