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  1. #41
    Very complete and helpfull guide.

    Maybe it just misses a warning about Guardian Spirit as a CD for solo static shocks : Guardian spirit heals you for 50% of your life if damage kills you. However, it does take into account overkill damage, meaning if static shock does more than 150% of your life (or you're not at full health), you are actually dead. I play barely only disc now but i used to go holy for this fight in normal mode the first times just to get the Hymn in phase 3. I strongly advise to use a self or external CD or a little damage reduce and/or active healing (a Power word: Shield + Prayer of Mending works fine most of the time in normal, but you would need a real defensive cooldown in HM). A precasted greater heal should also be needed depending on the defensive cooldown used to avoid dying from adds, Diffusion chain or Helm of Command.

    Assuming you have 550k hp pool (that's a more than decent one actually for a first kill), the skill itself can deal with about 750k damage (you die with 775), an if i'm right, the skill does about 1M, even at lvl 1 in hard mode, so forget about Guardian Spirit unless you pair it with a strong (30% or more) damage reduction cooldown. The only exception i can see is a warlock with Dark bargain, as the spell synergise well with DoT damages (you can even underheal the warlock and let him die in the last second of the DoT so he'd be "freely" healed for 50%hp).
    Last edited by Tinaby; 2013-08-01 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabuzan View Post
    We were 2 healing again last night and to be honest, there wasn't really a benefit to it (our 3rd healer was unavailable). It made the transition phase sketchier and gave less room for error with the ball lightnings so we regularly lost someone either over transition one or during phase 2... and still had to slow down on DPS in P2 even without leveling Overcharge.

    Would strongly recommend 3 healing if you have a decently geared alt, it'll be worth it. Running with a Disc Priest as one or 2 of those healers, or Mistweaver Monk, means you can still push the DPS when you need to. It also means your tank is at zero risk, so can constantly spam /sit and stand in AOE without fear of death.... 450k Vengeance ftw.
    I can't see your logs, but the only reason you could ever need 3 healers in the transition is if either you're 1. playing really badly or 2. have them assigned stupidly to platforms. With good dps and 2 healers, you only need to do 3 pylons in the first phase, and not level anything in the second.

    How/why are people dying? There's no damage other then helm/the odd static shock/bouncing bolts. Nothing 2 healers and caster dps can't handle for sure.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabuzan View Post
    Will bear this in mind - seems to be a debated topic on a few threads I've read over the last week; thanks.
    Purgatory has a 3min CD, doesn't reduce the damage taken one bit.

    AMZ reduces the damage from Static Shock by 75% (if it's only 1 hit, it isn't impacted by the absorption limit) on all players soaking, which is a very good reduction.
    2min CD aswell... And can be used on another player. There's no contest. Debate or not, the choice should be obvious.

  4. #44
    I agree that AMZ is extremely useful as a DK on the encounter. I two man a platform as an UH DK paired with a Blood DK for my group (not the ideal melee to use but we had troubles with other mdps two-manning), and the AMZ is important. There were a ton of pulls where I would get two static shocks in a transition, we would stack with AMZ up for the first, then IBF + AMS for the second. Would certainly be easier to two-man with a different melee, but definitely doable with a DK who utilises abilities properly.

    Add to that the general utility as mentioned above with making damage from shocks extremely negligible on other platforms with more people, as well as the use during p2 and p3 makes it a great talent for Lei Shen, and one your healers will really appreciate if you use it properly.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Purgatory has a 3min CD, doesn't reduce the damage taken one bit.

    AMZ reduces the damage from Static Shock by 75% (if it's only 1 hit, it isn't impacted by the absorption limit) on all players soaking, which is a very good reduction.
    2min CD aswell... And can be used on another player. There's no contest. Debate or not, the choice should be obvious.
    This is incorrect. If the damage goes out at the same time, it absorbs 75% of the damage per player up to the absorption limit per player. Aka, if it absorbs 225k on the tooltip, it will absorb 225k per person from static shock so it will not save you from static shock. A dk would need AMZ (~225k), AMS (~250k), IBF (30% mit) and we topped off to survive.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by NesQuek View Post
    This is incorrect. If the damage goes out at the same time, it absorbs 75% of the damage per player up to the absorption limit per player. Aka, if it absorbs 225k on the tooltip, it will absorb 225k per person from static shock so it will not save you from static shock. A dk would need AMZ (~225k), AMS (~250k), IBF (30% mit) and we topped off to survive.
    No, it's correct. Limit doesn't apply to a single hit.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    No, it's correct. Limit doesn't apply to a single hit.
    Unless I'm at fault, which is possible, it does not. Static shock in the first transition is close to level 3 or ~1.5 Million damage, if this was true you would simply AMZ the 1.5 M damage and you would only take 475k which if you're topped, will simply survive. This is not the case and instead will deal around 1.2M damage instead indicating that it will absorb 75% of the spell or the cap, whichever comes first. If AMZ acts as you say, then dks would have no problem solo soaking (10M) but they do.

    I know that it had no cap and instead absorbed 75% of the spell in cataclysm (known well for the bolt on deathwing).
    Last edited by NesQuek; 2013-08-02 at 03:23 AM. Reason: Spelling.

  8. #48
    So I've seen some posts here recommending 3 healing.

    Is there a consensus on whats "best" for progression? I get that 2 heals makes the dps easier but it seems to me the real issues lie in the transitions. What would people say is the deciding factor as to whether to 2 or 3 heal?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So I've seen some posts here recommending 3 healing.

    Is there a consensus on whats "best" for progression? I get that 2 heals makes the dps easier but it seems to me the real issues lie in the transitions. What would people say is the deciding factor as to whether to 2 or 3 heal?
    There is absolutely zero reason to three heal. The only reason you could remotely justify doing so is either intentionally failing on mechanics, or having dps classes that literally cannot ever through an offheal on others.

    The damage in p1/p2 and both transitions is easily solohealable. P3 does require 2 healers, and the 1st transition is made easier with 2.

    Transition damage is limited to the following:

    1. Helm - requires good healing/offhealing/defensive cds
    2. Static shock if not solo'd. Very predictable, but you'll want a healer on that platform in progress.
    3. Bouncing bolts - low damage. Easily offhealed
    4. Diffusion add. Just stun it. Offheals can manage easily. Or Mspellreflect/grounding it.
    5. Unharnessed thingies - Just don't fail at bouncing bolts.
    Last edited by oggyowl; 2013-08-02 at 08:13 AM.

  10. #50
    Ty for that, just another silly question, do immunities work for helm of command? For example if we have a pala tank on one quadrant and he gets helm can he bubble through it or is it just damage reductions that help? It may be my sub par reading skills but I'm not sure if its been discussed :P

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Ty for that, just another silly question, do immunities work for helm of command? For example if we have a pala tank on one quadrant and he gets helm can he bubble through it or is it just damage reductions that help? It may be my sub par reading skills but I'm not sure if its been discussed :P
    Not sure to be honest. I'm a holydin not prot, so never considered using them there. I assume it doesn't remove the debuff, but does make you immune to the damage for the duration. A protadin is literally the only class it's viable for though.

    A few more notes about paladins. (sorry nothing prot specific).

    - We suck at movement, you'll need speed of light for helm, so make sure its up for that. If at all possible you'll probably want the other tank/monkdpsorhealer healing with the taunts to move him between platforms fast. Watch out for him becoming immune to taunt though.
    - You can tank an unharnessed power without any problem at all in the transition if something fucks up. Also you can use your loh/wog/ss on whoever gets affected by helm on your platform (no healer required)
    - Fist of justice is very useful for diffusion adds. If I correctly recall the unharnessed powers are immune to them though.
    - When dealing with helm, start close to the middle of the platform. It's kinda dodgy for paladins.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by dzidek View Post
    This tutorial looks much more complicated than the fight itself But respect for the work done
    This. You also left out a few key details that could help people mitigate more dmg or gain more boss dmg.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Not sure to be honest. I'm a holydin not prot, so never considered using them there. I assume it doesn't remove the debuff, but does make you immune to the damage for the duration. A protadin is literally the only class it's viable for though.
    Viable to "waste" his bubble there or solotank a quadrant?

    As I solo tank a quadrant without any problems at all. Our transitionsplits are actually;

    1/1/4/4 and 2/2/6.

    We don't have a DK or a warlock at this point so we're not using any gimmicky things to help out with moving and what not.

    The 1/1/4/4 just makes it easier for the people that cannot immuum shit to do staticshock correctly. Hell, we could also go 1/1/3/5 depending on who has immunities and what not. This fight is all about control, most important thing would most likely be (especially for us DK less scrubs) to get only 3 ball lightnings during Phase 2 and more important during Phase 3 as those things can rape.

    The adds that spawn from bounces are no problem at all to tank solo as they do not do that much damage (although getting to many becomes a problem naturally).

    It's nice that someone actually wrote something of a guide as this fight is pretty technical and also very composition dependant. This is surely help out alot of guilds that want to get it done before 5.4 (which should hurry up and get here already!)
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Viable to "waste" his bubble there or solotank a quadrant?

    As I solo tank a quadrant without any problems at all. Our transitionsplits are actually;

    1/1/4/4 and 2/2/6.

    We don't have a DK or a warlock at this point so we're not using any gimmicky things to help out with moving and what not.

    The 1/1/4/4 just makes it easier for the people that cannot immuum shit to do staticshock correctly. Hell, we could also go 1/1/3/5 depending on who has immunities and what not. This fight is all about control, most important thing would most likely be (especially for us DK less scrubs) to get only 3 ball lightnings during Phase 2 and more important during Phase 3 as those things can rape.

    The adds that spawn from bounces are no problem at all to tank solo as they do not do that much damage (although getting to many becomes a problem naturally).

    It's nice that someone actually wrote something of a guide as this fight is pretty technical and also very composition dependant. This is surely help out alot of guilds that want to get it done before 5.4 (which should hurry up and get here already!)
    To 'waste' a bubble. Both holy and ret (and mages) are better off using it for static shocks. The ball lightnings do literally fuckall. Have a few people in range, wait for them dash to melee, aoe stun and kill.

    Also, note warriors have FAR better movement than paladins.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    The ball lightnings do literally fuckall. Have a few people in range, wait for them dash to melee, aoe stun and kill.
    Yes, when handled correctly they aint a problem. Yet they are one of the easiest things people tend to fuck up and when they do can be pretty deadly, pretty quickly. Naturally when done right you get three balls and it's not big deal at all.

    Warrior mobility is great ye, one of our few strengths, i'd say for helm of command it's not _that_ much better than a paladin though. As there is generally nothing for me to charge/intervene when i'm alone in my quadrant. Heroic leap is on shorter cooldown than the sprint I think but yeah, I wouldn't say we're lightyears ahead when soloing a quadrant. (It's actually not the easiest thing to time the heroic leap to catch one of the two bounces while making sure you dont safe it so long that you're pushed off).

    Eitherway dismissing the ball lightnings as doing fuck all especially for guilds progressing is slightly understating their role in my opinion. Then again that could be how this fight works, specific guilds have specific "pitfalls". Ours tends to be the Balls due to people not moving out fast enough, or too many people moving in and things like that.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Eitherway dismissing the ball lightnings as doing fuck all especially for guilds progressing is slightly understating their role in my opinion. Then again that could be how this fight works, specific guilds have specific "pitfalls". Ours tends to be the Balls due to people not moving out fast enough, or too many people moving in and things like that.
    Ye quite possibly. I'd say out of our 45~ wipes, we possibly wiped once in p2, if that. They literally weren't an issue for us at all. We had ranged out in a semicircle, holy paladin in melee, people stacking@melee for shocks, and monks stunning them when they got in. For us it was the first transition mainly, a little bit of p3/2nd transition, and a retarded tank.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    Ye quite possibly. I'd say out of our 45~ wipes, we possibly wiped once in p2, if that. They literally weren't an issue for us at all. We had ranged out in a semicircle, holy paladin in melee, people stacking@melee for shocks, and monks stunning them when they got in. For us it was the first transition mainly, a little bit of p3/2nd transition, and a retarded tank.
    Ow, well, maybe I should be a tad more clear. The balls in Phase 3 we're a huge problem for us With tanks taking pretty serious damage, the thunderstruck and those things spawning Zooming around. Getting more then 3 in Phase 3 was pretty annoying. It wasnt to bad when we got 4~ because of ranged but if a ranged decided he/she was a special flower and ran in with Static Shock or some shit where basically EVERYONE would spawn a ball. That would be a serious flipping problem.

    Regardless you are 100% correct that the vast majority of the wipes will be in a transition. They sure as hell were for us.
    Odeanathus is one of those people who get's a job driving the special bus just to make fun of the disabled kids....

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    There is absolutely zero reason to three heal. The only reason you could remotely justify doing so is either intentionally failing on mechanics, or having dps classes that literally cannot ever through an offheal on others.
    Actually, this means that running 3 heals for the first trys is quite nice to go as far as possible in the encounter and understand as much mechanics as possible faster. I would be more precise about the "off healing" : if you don't have a balance druid that can HoT the world for 80k crit renew, you might need 3 healers at a point. Chamans/Priests/Other druids can land a great aoe heal in phase 3 but are mostly useless in transitions. And, as said in the guide, if you got sufficient DPS, it's far safer to go 3 heals. If you have nice damage dealers and not that good healers, you should go with 3. If you got 2 nice heals and not so pretty damage dealers, you should go with 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by oggyowl View Post
    The damage in p1/p2 and both transitions is easily solohealable. P3 does require 2 healers, and the 1st transition is made easier with 2.

    Transition damage is limited to the following:

    [...]
    3. Bouncing bolts - low damage. Easily offhealed
    [...]
    About 350k in hard mode. Hard to offheal if you got 2 or 3 on the same area and no "real" heal due to the random damage that may follow (helm, diffusion + related add, ...). That said, if people can land some self heal or CD, it should not be a problem (if you have a warlock, healthstone can do it as this is only for the first transition because in the second, you'll most probably have a heal on your side).

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire Zabuzan's Avatar
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    We are currently using AMZ on this, but unless our DK has a priest shield on him as well, the Static Shock sometimes just pummels him even through that.

    With regards to the other comments about 2 heal vs 3 heal - I see no reason to 2 heal this fight if you have the DPS to push Phase 2 without levelling Overcharge or Bouncing Bolt - it makes the first transition a breeze and if someone messes up (which is pretty likely during early progress) then it's not usually a guaranteed wipe.

    When 2 healing, it always seemed to be too busy on the healer free platform to keep it comfortably under control for - a lot of it is lack of practice, there's no doubt it's totally manageable to 2 heal it. However, for an easier kill, I don't see why you would bother with a riskier strategy... it seems pretty stupid, unless you have poor DPS. Galiks from Rehabilitation Clinic seems to agree!! :P Found his guide (with commentary) on Maintankadin recently and he was of a similar opinion, except he had the additional benefit of having actually killed the boss and they had a pretty early kill with 3 heal.

    It could be comp related for us, we didn't have a lot of SS soakers available for our last raid (3rd night) and ended up 2 healing as well, but when we switched to 3 heal we saw P3 a number of times on the second night after spending most of the first night struggling into P2 with someone dead due to a mess up of some kind. It's more forgiving and it means that we can improve even on the later aspects of the fight even if we make a mistake earlier on, because that early mistake doesn't wipe people out.

    By the end of the 3rd night, even with 2 healing, we managed to start phase 3 with most of the raid up but an Overcharge fail on the 2nd transition meant that there were a LOT of bouncing bolt adds up :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
    Viable to "waste" his bubble there or solotank a quadrant?

    As I solo tank a quadrant without any problems at all. Our transitionsplits are actually;

    1/1/4/4 and 2/2/6.
    That's quite interesting. We did actually manage to do a 1/1/1/7 split which worked fairly well, I guess for more unorthodox split options it's perhaps more comp reliant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kakera View Post
    This. You also left out a few key details that could help people mitigate more dmg or gain more boss dmg.
    Could you enlighten me as to what those details are? I can always add them It's still a work in progress, not a totally finished project - it says as much at the start of the thread!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So I've seen some posts here recommending 3 healing.

    Is there a consensus on whats "best" for progression? I get that 2 heals makes the dps easier but it seems to me the real issues lie in the transitions. What would people say is the deciding factor as to whether to 2 or 3 heal?
    Definitely recommend 3 healing for progression if you've got sufficient DPS to push P2 whilst only levelling Diffusion Chain and nothing else. Smooths out the bumps and means you'll see a lot more of the fight, so you're going to get up to speed with the mechanics quicker. If you get to P3 and are struggling there, can always look at dropping to 2 healers.... but I'm pretty confident that once we can nail the second transition and get through to P3 with everyone alive, we'll have no issue 3 healing the final phase either as our raid DPS is more than enough to kill Lei Shen before the winds out damage the healers' efforts

    3 healing on our next raid will mean we'll repeatedly get to transition 2 (as we did on our second raid whilst 3 healing), rather than wiping on the 1st transition quite often or losing people during phase 2 (not entirely sure why.. probably bad play, but if we hadn't 2 healed on our 3rd night it wouldn't have been a risk to start with).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinaby View Post
    Very complete and helpfull guide.

    Maybe it just misses a warning about Guardian Spirit as a CD for solo static shocks
    I left it out as I included it in the same bracket as Pain Sup/ other single target externals, which I'd previously advised to use to assist with the Vengeance abuse that the main tank is probably going to be doing with /sit spam. But perhaps I should have clarified that better.

    GS is a very nice CD for soaking any big hit of course

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Purgatory has a 3min CD, doesn't reduce the damage taken one bit.

    AMZ reduces the damage from Static Shock by 75% (if it's only 1 hit, it isn't impacted by the absorption limit) on all players soaking, which is a very good reduction.
    2min CD aswell... And can be used on another player. There's no contest. Debate or not, the choice should be obvious.
    This has already been changed in the guide itself, pretty much the first day I started this thread, was just waiting for more information because I'd read in other forums/threads of people using Purgatory in combination with lesser reductions so it procs but isn't too challenging to heal back up from. AMZ seems to be the crowd favourite for pretty well explained reasons though

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks for all the feedback from everyone though

    Would like to reiterate that this is a WORK IN PROGRESS!!! I'll be amending it indefinitely until I'm either happy with it or 5.4 starts, so I appreciate any advice, but if something is missing I'd also appreciate it if people could be a little more constructive with their criticism and perhaps a little less inflammatory.

    Keep churning out the advice!!
    Zabuzan: GM, RL and MT of <Origin> Alonsus-EU // 14/14HC 10-man // 7/14HC 25-man
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  20. #60
    Did they fix AMZ? Because back in the day when I was progressing on Lei Shen it would be somewhat unreliable whereas its reducing effect would be neglected and I'd end up getting 1-shot. And yes, I did try it a bunch at 0.5-2 seconds before the explosion up to instantly using it.

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