Why are "my kind" considered trolls and forced to join guilds? (Venting/Rant Thread)

[Endus]

I'm going up and working for it. Because as it stands, it is my only means of character progression to the point where I can solo older content that I could not before when they were current.

That isn't your only means of character progression. It's your only means of progressing in one specific aspect of the game, but to do so you need some organization. This is why you can't PUG it, for the most part; because pick-up groups generally lack the coordination to succeed. It's a "social wall", because you're talking about group content. If you want to participate in group content, you need a group to do so.

And really, the idea of "character progression" is a funny one. There's absolutely nothing which states that any player should be able to completely progress their character along any particular angle without having to deal with any hurdles along the way. If that were true, that destroys the entire concept of "progression", because there's no challenges or difficulties to surmount to succeed.

I really don't get why you'd want to be able to progress at group content without a group. It's like asking why you can't get top-tier PvP gear and Gladiator ranks without killing other players. If you don't enjoy that kind of content, don't play it. There's no call for asking to get its rewards, unless you do, though.

[mmines]

I don't honestly understand what you're saying. That's not a snarky comment- that's me expressing general confusion. I don't know what "post LFR queue" means and your post is not entirely clear what you're upset about.

Are you saying you want to raid normal modes but are mad you can't find a regular group that doesn't require guild membership?
Are you saying that normal modes are too hard to PuG?
Are you saying you want the system to do random matchmaking for normal modes?

I think he means the last one. It just wouldn't work with random people. I think you just have to deal with it OP. I just don't see it as something that can be with a random group. Just look at how bad LFR can get at times. It would be a wipe fest.

Also try to find a group of people that you fit in with, I think you'll find that you'll have a lot of fun with them progressing through the content. If that doesn't work out for you then I guess you just have to wait for more LFR's to come out. But then again try different strategies on things you're having trouble soloing. You may find it funner when you really have to try to beat something.

[unholyness]

I think normal modes would work out if you could queue for it, as along as it has a higher ilvl requirement than LFR. Heroic would never happen though. Normal mode would also be a nightmare at first but I think people would adjust and overcome.

Ilvl has nothing to do with it. People have no idea on their class/spec,rotation,reforge/gemming,etc. It has never been about gear when people say Normal mode is too hard or alt runs. We pug/alt run a couple heroics and full clear but most of the people we invite have mains and know how to play their class. having a Que for normal would be a disaster.

[Berraant]

If you're at 8/10, or 20/25, wouldn't it make more sense to just snag the last few via server pugging anyways? I mean, you're mostly there already.

But more importantly, what if those last couple slots aren't just a throwaway DPS role, but instead something pretty vital, like a tank or a couple healers? Are you sure you'd want to get whatever the random system decided to stick you with, somebody whom you can't assure has any gear, experience, or willingness to communicate at all?

1. The gear issue should be eliminated with a minimum item level needed to enter.

2. I hope Blizzard expands upon the Proving Grounds for class experience, and make separate achievements for killing a boss on the selected difficulty a reality for encounter experience.

3. For communication, I would start by adding Ventrillo or similar programs to the game hints, and fix 2.2's Voice Chat system, automatically turning it on whenever you enter a post-LFR raid, so you would listen for queues from other human beings.

[Endus]

1. The gear issue should be eliminated with a minimum item level needed to enter.

That doesn't really fix anything, since it doesn't ensure they're wearing the right gear.

3. For communication, I would start by adding Ventrillo or similar programs to the game hints, and fix 2.2's Voice Chat system, automatically turning it on whenever you enter a post-LFR raid, so you would listen for queues from other human beings.

Are you forcing that system on? So I can't mute my WoW while I'm raiding? If you aren't, it's an irrelevant change. And if you are, I now have to deal with 12 year olds screaming racial epithets and whatever, or queueing their mike up while eating, or any of a dozen other obviously terrible things.

This is why raiding is done with social groups. Because it gives the raid/guild leader the ability to simply remove problem people, and with control over their voice chat, to do the same there as well.

[Pugbot]

(/begin rant)

Let me describe a story for you guys.

So, whenever someone like me posts a thread saying:



They get this:



Apparently, I'm pigeonholed into "joining a raiding guild", which I am doing right now on Zul'jin-US. It will be a short time before I'm raid-ready, but I will do this content I am forced into for progression.

I said it. "Forced". I'm doing it, but against my will in order to upgrade my gear and have fun. My character to be used for post-LFR raiding is Janthua: Zul'jin, and I know of my class' post-90 "homeworks" (Gemming, enchanting, reforging) via helpful guides, so I can join a "job" and do "work".

You could say I'm a skilled casual who has forced himself to be hardcore. All because of this:

In terms of game health, social groups > pugs > random matchmaking > not grouping at all. That last bit is why LFR exists.

Translated into:

In terms of game health, social groups (made of a metal so strong no man or machine can bring them down) > pugs (made of the second strongest metal, still unable to be taken down) > random matchmaking (LFR, no qualms)> not grouping at all (hence why soloing old content exists for those that can't get past the strong metals in premades).

Social "walls" are impenetrable compared to Blizzard "walls". I'd rather have Blizzard "walls" than social "walls", but Battle.net's "forums" hate that. (Hence why I quoted "Troll, random and hard don't mix, period."

And that's just me, and my personal experience. There could be many others like me out there, but they are being flamed into oblivion for their viewpoints. It could have just been a pre-made filling tool for you guys, and you would have flamed at it. I acknowledge openraid exists, but Blizzard put a lock on the current tier to prevent openraid from entering it, which should not exist in the first place. (As in, SoO will have a lock and ToT's lock will be lifted). Seriously, you flamed the Ra-Den-via-LFR thread into oblivion, locked it and deleted it.

(/end rant)

Share your experiences with "my kind" here, angry or not. You may also answer the question in the title.

I think I am sort of in the same boat as you, but I have no issues with not being able to get normal mode gear. I would love to do raids but also don't want to put forth the effort in dealing with a guild or the commitment involved in sticking with a raiding schedule, so I am fine without being able to get the gear. I don't understand why you want or expect WoW to implement something (which use to be there and it was worthless) just for you.
Maybe you have never raided before and don't understand that coordinating difficulties between strangers makes pugging very difficult?

[Bellatryxx]

1. The gear issue should be eliminated with a minimum item level needed to enter.

2. I hope Blizzard expands upon the Proving Grounds for class experience, and make separate achievements for killing a boss on the selected difficulty a reality for encounter experience.

3. For communication, I would start by adding Ventrillo or similar programs to the game hints, and fix 2.2's Voice Chat system, automatically turning it on whenever you enter a post-LFR raid, so you would listen for queues from other human beings.

LFR already HAS a minimum ilvl to enter. It's been that way since 4.3. You still need enough gear to reach it. Are you trolling here?
Why do we need a voice chat system in the game exactly? Convenience? Ventrillo and Mumble work perfectly fine. And how would that fix all the other problems that have been presented?

[Berraant]

You're providing excellent reasons for Normal-mode queues to not exist. I'm starting to wonder why you created this thread in the first place. It sounds to me like you fully understand why no such queue system exists and why it will never exist, but there's some kind of disconnect between this knowledge and reality.

Now you're asking for a system that will automatically fill in the 2-remaining players in an 8/10 group... that's a pretty niche problem that is extremely easy to solve via trade chat. There is literally no reason to be making this request aside from, I don't know, laziness? Social ineptitude? Whatever it is, you know why the system doesn't exist and, yet, you're asking why it shouldn't exist.

So, why does this thread exist? I'm being sincere here -- definitely not flaming. Why did you make this thread if you already understand these things?

I was just venting. I have to accept the reality that queued Flex/Normal/Heroic will not exist, and I'm raising the ranks the old-fashioned way. When I find myself able to kill Heroic Garrosh, I will post some insight I have learned from the journey to the destination.

[Xargoth6634]

fix 2.2's Voice Chat system, automatically turning it on whenever you enter a post-LFR raid, so you would listen for queues from other human beings.

Yeah, you'd never catch me in there, then. It's one thing to join a pug of people you've heard of or know on the server you're part of the community on and optionally use vent for advanced content, but to automatically be forced into one with a bunch of randoms that would spend most of the time raging with no option to opt out? No thanks. Not to mention the fact that it would be abused to death by trolls. I hope you like being rickrolled, because you'd be hearing that song constantly. (If that's still a thing)

[Mirishka]

The experiences of almost 100% of groups created via queueing into normal or, god forbid, heroic raid content would be extremely negative.

I hate to say it, especially considering I don't actually know you, but I'm almost sure that you would have no fun doing it. Nor would almost anybody else, unless they were severely masochistic.

That's why finding a social group (or at the very least, a decent pug!) is so helpful. The coordination betters the experience for everybody involved, because without that coordination, the group would almost entirely fall apart trying to actually do content.

Pretty much this. The first few months of Cataclysm heroics (GB and Stonecore in particular were bruuuuuutal) all but proved Blizzard's point on this. Mind you, I actually liked 5mans being hard enough to wipe us, but a lot of players don't - and that's their right.

[braeldiil]

Real raiding requires a consistant group. If you can PUG it, it's not really raiding. And PUGs are a lot better than LFR. If you took 1 player from each of the top 25 guilds in WoW, they wouldn't be able to clear ToT heroic. You really do need the practice of working together and learning each other's strengths and weaknesses to do that content.

And that doesn't even get into the absolute need for voice coms, a raid leader to set your specific plan, getting people to eat 50+ wipes on the hard bosses and keep coming back, etc, etc.

Put it this way, original LFR Galaron was a lot easier than normal Galaron. LFR players today have better gear than the normal raiders that beat him. If you turned LFR Galaron back into his original tuning, no one would ever clear that wing, ever again.

[Dawnrage]

I was just venting. I have to accept the reality that queued Flex/Normal/Heroic will not exist, and I'm raising the ranks the old-fashioned way. When I find myself able to kill Heroic Garrosh, I will post some insight I have learned from the journey to the destination.

Venting about what exactly? That the option doesn't exist just for the sake of it? You obviously realize the -numerous- cons about queued Normal/Heroic (Flex is queue-able, in a premade group), so why do you even want that option to exist?

Better yet, can you give GOOD reasons for there to be queue-able normal/heroic modes? Normals might be feasible, though I really want to know what kind of masochist you would have to be to deal with people leaving at the drop of a hat and having to reteach the fight to a person every time you wipe. As mentioned before, most guilds take a good 2-3 weeks to fully learn and clear ToT, and you think a random group of people only held back by ilevel requirements would somehow have a good success rate with this option (and if you didn't already learn from LFR - does absolutely nothing because most people are just not even average raiders at all). LFR is not a raid - LFR is a loot pinata. You don't go into normal raids with trolls, people who afk, people pulling FAR below what they are suppose to do and expect to kill anything in normal - at all.

I don't even see the point of a heroic queue. You either haven't done any of these instances or you are severely underestimating what it takes to do them/overestimating the majority of the raiding population.

So again, what exactly are you venting about here?

And I don't know if you are a troll or not, but those poll options scream nothing but "Troll" to me.

I also went and looked up your armory. You are level 89 with no noticeable raid achievements, so you have probably never raided normals in current tier before. You may think you are a "skilled" casual but I think you are in for a rude awakening once you start raiding in an actual guild.

[RicardoZ]

I feel your pain, OP.

You know, I made a thread back in 2011 outlining how I would design a "cross realm raid finder". It got kind of famous, because it got a Blue post where they kind of hinted for the first time that they were considering LFR.

The basic outline was this:

-Cannot queue for current tier content
-Requires ilvl equal to 5 points above last heroic tier (at the time the ilvl requirement for heroics was 346, so you would have needed at least 351)
-You queue for specific boss fights, not full raids
-Drops no loot, gives no gold, awards no points
-You must have completed every encounter before you can queue for the last boss of the instance
-Works for 10 man normal only
-Players who die are considered "disqualified", instantly removed from the group, and ported to the nearest graveyard (unless they are battle rezzed before the encounter ends), with a 20 minute penalty before they may queue again.
-After defeating the final boss of the encounter, you will be given an achievement that can be linked in Trade for PuG purposes.

Now you may remember the controversy over Tier 11 helm and shoulder pieces not being put up for purchase with Valor/Justice points. I came up with this system so that people who were not members of a raiding guild or a regular group (such as myself) would have a way to EARN our ticket into instances, so that we could get the gear that we wanted.

I explained the positive points: You could do MC40 at level 60 provided you were willing to sit through the queue. It would bring back server community because more people would have achieves and could PuG.

I cannot even begin to explain the hate and bile that was spat at me for the couple of weeks that thread raged. I was told that I was just a baddie who wanted to be carried (mostly by people who didn't bother to read what happens when you die), that I was looking for "welfare epics" (mostly by people who didn't bother to read the part about dropping no loot, gold, or points). It was pretty bad.

Ironically, I think most of those elitists who screamed me down and spat on my grave would, in retrospect, much rather have the system I envisioned than the one we actually got, so I think I kind of had the last laugh.

[ACES]

If there were some way to guarantee a minimum skill level then I would absolutely love to be able to queue for normal and heroic raids.

[Tziva]

-Players who die are considered "disqualified", instantly removed from the group, and ported to the nearest graveyard (unless they are battle rezzed before the encounter ends), with a 20 minute penalty before they may queue again.

For reals?

How do you expect a group to learn an encounter if they are disbanned after every wipe? That's ridiculously punishing, both for the group and the individual.

[Klutzington]

From my experience in LFR, being able to queue for Normal would be utter hell.

Joining a guild to do normals is not hardcore btw and you might actually make some friends out of it and have fun. Although I doubt that because you sound like a cunt.

Agree with this guy. OP, if you are "serious" about doing normals... lol... join a guild. You aren't "forced" to do normal raids, and if you WANT to do them, then I guess you WANT to join a guild. If you were truly serious about raiding, go do heroics. Top 500 world guilds aren't hard to get into. It begins to get intimidating to get into guilds beyond the top 200 world mark.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much this. The first few months of Cataclysm heroics (GB and Stonecore in particular were bruuuuuutal) all but proved Blizzard's point on this. Mind you, I actually liked 5mans being hard enough to wipe us, but a lot of players don't - and that's their right.

I loved those hard 5's dungeons. I loved Cata T1 as much as I loved Ulduar. Cata T1 was SUCH a good tier for the hardcore community. Meanwhile I was in a guild which ranked US #20 at the time, so I may be a bit biased.

[bclumas]

Every sentence that the OP has posted seems to make no sense whatsoever.

I was just venting. I have to accept the reality that queued Flex/Normal/Heroic will not exist, and I'm raising the ranks the old-fashioned way. When I find myself able to kill Heroic Garrosh, I will post some insight I have learned from the journey to the destination.

What does this mean? "Raising the ranks the ranks the old-fashioned way"? You mean.. you're going to get into a guild and do everything that you're upset about? You're upset that you cannot queue but recognize that this is would never be a feasible way of raiding. You're ranting about something you cannot change and that you have no ideas about how to get this done. This sounds more like whining than ranting. Maybe if you proposed an idea of how to make your idea work (not even a good idea, just SOME idea), maybe we could see you posting a constructive rant. You're not even close.

[Dawnrage]

I feel your pain, OP.

You know, I made a thread back in 2011 outlining how I would design a "cross realm raid finder". It got kind of famous, because it got a Blue post where they kind of hinted for the first time that they were considering LFR.

From the general tone of your post, it's probably not even worth it to convince you of anything, but I'm bored so here goes.

The basic outline was this:

-Cannot queue for current tier content
-Requires ilvl equal to 5 points above last heroic tier (at the time the ilvl requirement for heroics was 346, so you would have needed at least 351)
-You queue for specific boss fights, not full raids
-Drops no loot, gives no gold, awards no points
-You must have completed every encounter before you can queue for the last boss of the instance
-Works for 10 man normal only
-Players who die are considered "disqualified", instantly removed from the group, and ported to the nearest graveyard (unless they are battle rezzed before the encounter ends), with a 20 minute penalty before they may queue again.
-After defeating the final boss of the encounter, you will be given an achievement that can be linked in Trade for PuG purposes.

So basically you give a whole bunch of reasons to not do the place, and only one real reason (to get an achievement so you can...pug?) to put up with such a horribly planned system (ignoring the whole people who die getting kicked thing that's even more punishing than a heroic raid). There's a reason you are sitting on MMO-champion making garbage like this instead of headlining a AAA+ game title - I will let you figure out why.

I explained the positive points: You could do MC40 at level 60 provided you were willing to sit through the queue. It would bring back server community because more people would have achieves and could PuG.

No. It won't.

I cannot even begin to explain the hate and bile that was spat at me for the couple of weeks that thread raged. I was told that I was just a baddie who wanted to be carried (mostly by people who didn't bother to read what happens when you die), that I was looking for "welfare epics" (mostly by people who didn't bother to read the part about dropping no loot, gold, or points). It was pretty bad.

Wish I was there to take part in that - sounds like it was well deserved.

Ironically, I think most of those elitists who screamed me down and spat on my grave would, in retrospect, much rather have the system I envisioned than the one we actually got, so I think I kind of had the last laugh.

Let me put this in a nice way - you are on crack. At least LFR is thought out (albeit thought out for the people who want free epics), whereas your system just plain stinks.

[Anprionsa]

Another interesting thing here is how he really just wants to solo content. This is a MMORPG. That stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Don't replace the "role" for "random" because that is not what a fantasy world is about. And the developers have stated this over and over again throughout the years.

Forming social groups is the point of this game. And then advancing your character through the role play part. It isn't an RPGMMO, it's a MMORPG.

[Klutzington]

Also: be grateful that LFR is actually out. If it were me, I would scrap LFR and never let people "queue" into raids. Raiding is meant to be done in a guild WITH friends. If you don't have the time to raid... why is the game even fun to you -- aside from PvP?