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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    thats an incredibly vague "rule", most wars/battles happen among civilian populations anyway.
    Hell if 2 armies are fighting over a major city there would be more civilians than actual troops on the battlefield
    And thats why the UN is typically a useless bag of shit.

    Really the only UN war law that most everyone takes seriously and is clearly spelled out is the one concerning mercenary forces. Basically if you are caught acting as a mercenary by the other side, you void having any of the rights guranteed by the Geneva Convention. Which means the people who have captured you can torture you, black mail you, starve you, brainwash you, or even execute you, and its perfectly legal.

    Thats why you never really hear about groups officially referring to themselves as mercenaries after WW2. (today there are still mercenaries, but they call themselves "private contractors" which lets them fight as a mercenary and still have human rights benefits through a vocabulary loophole)
    Last edited by Defengar; 2013-07-27 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #442
    I'm noticing that a lot of the arguements in favor of the forsaken are acting as if the Alliance in lore are all a bunch of stupid npcs that will stand stand around and do nothing. Like sneaking into Stormwind and getting plague onto the tram is going to be easy. Or getting bombs powerful enough to destroy the Tram that deep underwater without notice. Like Stormwind has no defenses and it'd be so easy to just fly in spraying plague.

    It makes me think the sylvannas supporters in this scenario think that the Alliance in lore is as inept as the npcs you fight against in quests, and they'll sit around doing nothing while you reign plague down on them from above and nothing can stop you, because you're the PC and the player is OP as hell in this game.

  3. #443
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Without the Orcs bolstering them in Gilneas they would've been decisively defeated. They are arguably the weakest force in all of Azeroth. All they have is shock and awe mixed in with atrocity. The Argent Dawn could lay waste to them but don't because of the Horde affiliation.
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  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    Without the Orcs bolstering them in Gilneas they would've been decisively defeated. They are arguably the weakest force in all of Azeroth. All they have is shock and awe mixed in with atrocity. The Argent Dawn could lay waste to them but don't because of the Horde affiliation.
    They have a few advantages. The plague, and the Val'kyr, but yes they're not as OP as some people claim, if they were they wouldn't need the Horde, and if Sylvannus didn't need the Horde I doubt she'd be a part of it.

  5. #445
    I hope she would take over Stormwind and the Alliance could have Ironforge as their new capital.

  6. #446
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    They have a few advantages. The plague, and the Val'kyr, but yes they're not as OP as some people claim, if they were they wouldn't need the Horde, and if Sylvannus didn't need the Horde I doubt she'd be a part of it.
    Their plague is nothing more than shock and awe, overusing it renders the land unusable/unlivable to them which goes against conquest goals, and they haul it around in giant glass flasks ffs, any alliance cannon hitting it would detonate it all over the Forsaken around it and melt them into ooze. Merely a fact of total shit writing that has prevented this from happening yet. The Valkyr are rather easy to kill, they'd go down fast and Sylvanas is only a shotgun shell away from the eternal hell she deserves after that. Sylvanas needs the Horde to 1) keep the Argent Crusade from destroying her, 2) keep the Alliance from destroying her, 3) gain access to resources in the rest of the World they wouldn't have without the Horde. Argent Crusade won't act against the Horde, the Horde jumping into war against the Alliance keeps Undercity safe, and resources are always good.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    They have a few advantages. The plague, and the Val'kyr, but yes they're not as OP as some people claim, if they were they wouldn't need the Horde, and if Sylvannus didn't need the Horde I doubt she'd be a part of it.
    The Val'kyr are allready half of what Sylvanas had when they joined her. Kill Sylvanas (thus forcing a val'kyr to take her place to rez her) or her val'kyr and boom, no more raising advantage, unless Forsaken turn Spirit Healers to their side, then they will take over the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Stormwind would fall if she sent in a massive fleet of these improved forsaken bats that spray the plague around.

    That's a pretty awesome idea but I have to question the placement of the sprayer..
    Well the sprayer obviously is far too small to include any liquid agent to create the plague mist/spray. To economize the process, the sprayer repurposes the bat's own urine.

  9. #449
    Alone? Nah, the dwarves, gnomes and humans would destroy her.

    With the help of the Horde? possibly, the orcs already have their bases in Silverpine. And the blood elves could be of great assistance

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defengar View Post
    And thats why the UN is typically a useless bag of shit.
    Likewise, there is a lot of rules in the UN/Genva that seem like total bullshit
    Another example is frowning upon dum dum (fragmentation) bullets, since they cause "too" much damage.
    I mean wtf does that even mean? The whole god dam point of a bullet is to cause damage

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Or getting bombs powerful enough to destroy the Tram that deep underwater without notice. Like Stormwind has no defenses and it'd be so easy to just fly in spraying plague.
    .
    it was apprantly easy enough for the Horde to ravage Theramore's docks and air defenses

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    Without the Orcs bolstering them in Gilneas they would've been decisively defeated.
    Any army, no matter how powerful, automatically loses when the players are thrown into the fray.
    Hell thats the deciding factor for victory in Azeroth, whichever side has the players fighting for them
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Alone? Nah, the dwarves, gnomes and humans would destroy her.

    With the help of the Horde? possibly, the orcs already have their bases in Silverpine. And the blood elves could be of great assistance
    The Horde wouldn't back her though after the events of Siege of Orgrimmar. The Horde in Kalimdor owes a great deal to the Alliance and wouldn't get involved. Lor'themar and the Elves were even trying to break away from the Horde. He's also made his disgust for Sylvanas pretty much known after she forced him to send Elves to Northrend to support her in revenge instead of allowing them appropriate time to rebuild their home. Her trying to resurrect his people as Forsaken during Siege added to the tension.

    Sylvanas would be isolated and alone in her conquest against the might of the Alliance, Argent Crusade, Ebon Blade, and possibly even the Blood Elves. It's even likely the rest of the Horde would go to the aid of the Alliance as if Sylvanas were able to take over the Eastern Kingdoms (which she isn't,) nothing would stop her from focusing her attention to Kalimdor next after gaining a massive army in resurrected Alliance soldiers.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-07-28 at 12:07 AM.

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post


    Any army, no matter how powerful, automatically loses when the players are thrown into the fray.
    Hell thats the deciding factor for victory in Azeroth, whichever side has the players fighting for them

    The forsaken player only won in silerpine cause he captured lorna, the daugher of Mr.Crowley the fist-cleaver himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    Without the Orcs bolstering them in Gilneas they would've been decisively defeated. They are arguably the weakest force in all of Azeroth. All they have is shock and awe mixed in with atrocity. The Argent Dawn could lay waste to them but don't because of the Horde affiliation.
    Id say they are stronger than what is left of the Gnomes and MAYBE MAYBE the Blood Elves or Darkspear Trolls but that's about it.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Galosengen View Post
    Id say they are stronger than what is left of the Gnomes and MAYBE MAYBE the Blood Elves or Darkspear Trolls but that's about it.
    The problem with the Forsaken is they can only repopulate by successfully conquering an area with suitable bodies to revive. This means they have to go on the offensive, even at a disadvantage, to have any sort of chance. The Forsaken's numbers are dwindling over time after the immense casualties they suffered in Northrend. Now that they've lost more in skirmishes against the Worgen and more in Siege of Orgrimmar, the Forsaken won't have the manpower to be able to try their hand at conquering.

    The only reason Gilneas was remotely successful was because of the timing. The Gilneans had just lost their city to the Worgen, lost part of their land to the Cataclysm, were trying to regroup and tend to the survivors, then found themselves under siege with biological weapons. And they were still able to beat them back.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I'm noticing that a lot of the arguements in favor of the forsaken are acting as if the Alliance in lore are all a bunch of stupid npcs that will stand stand around and do nothing. Like sneaking into Stormwind and getting plague onto the tram is going to be easy. Or getting bombs powerful enough to destroy the Tram that deep underwater without notice. Like Stormwind has no defenses and it'd be so easy to just fly in spraying plague.

    It makes me think the sylvannas supporters in this scenario think that the Alliance in lore is as inept as the npcs you fight against in quests, and they'll sit around doing nothing while you reign plague down on them from above and nothing can stop you, because you're the PC and the player is OP as hell in this game.
    Did you even bothered to ever play the wc3 alliance and scourge campaign? Humanity was much stronger in Lorderaron and before the destruction that came with the burning legion, the plague cause major havok turn each city into undead factory. The Culling of Stratholme should even known by players that only bothered playing wow exclusively.

    Humans are just not prepared for a plague, and the only human that did fight it was Arthas. Neither uther nor jaina did a single thing against the plague they were both utterly useless and helpless like your mentioned stupid npcs.

    Whats needed is just the element of surprise, by the time Sylvanas declares war, the plague is allready spreaded and its too late. Even horde players can freely use that subway in stormwind that leads to iron forge and nothing can be done to stop them, some forsaken or goblins in disguise could act as harmles traders and bring their infected crops in there.

    There is no intelligence, sword, magic, tanks, submarines, navy whatever to prevent that biological surprise attack, that is so devastating that the alliance can't recover from it.

    Humans are very weak, but allowed to be spared their lifes for the sake of a story. >.>

  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    The forsaken player only won in silerpine cause he captured lorna, the daugher of Mr.Crowley the fist-cleaver himself.
    idk, the Forsaken/Horde forces seemed to have been giving Worgen/Alliance forces hell, as Sylvannas was making her way to the Greymane Gate
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    The problem with the Forsaken is they can only repopulate by successfully conquering an area with suitable bodies to revive. This means they have to go on the offensive, even at a disadvantage, to have any sort of chance. The Forsaken's numbers are dwindling over time after the immense casualties they suffered in Northrend. Now that they've lost more in skirmishes against the Worgen and more in Siege of Orgrimmar, the Forsaken won't have the manpower to be able to try their hand at conquering.
    Forsaken can repopulate from the many graveyards across EK, which they do. There are many more dead humans than there are living. They use Val'kyr in battles because it gives them an edge.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    Did you even bothered to ever play the wc3 alliance and scourge campaign? Humanity was much stronger in Lorderaron and before the destruction that came with the burning legion, the plague cause major havok turn each city into undead factory. The Culling of Stratholme should even known by players that only bothered playing wow exclusively.

    Humans are just not prepared for a plague, and the only human that did fight it was Arthas. Neither uther nor jaina did a single thing against the plague they were both utterly useless and helpless like your mentioned stupid npcs.

    Whats needed is just the element of surprise, by the time Sylvanas declares war, the plague is allready spreaded and its too late. Even horde players can freely use that subway in stormwind that leads to iron forge and nothing can be done to stop them, some forsaken or goblins in disguise could act as harmles traders and bring their infected crops in there.

    There is no intelligence, sword, magic, tanks, submarines, navy whatever to prevent that biological surprise attack, that is so devastating that the alliance can't recover from it.

    Humans are very weak, but allowed to be spared their lifes for the sake of a story. >.>
    The second Sylvanas tries to use the plague on a city, she'll be slaughtered. If she somehow gets to Stormwind to use it, Ironforge along with the Blood Elves, Argent Crusade, and Ebon Blade would come down upon her.

    This thread is full of Sylvanas fanboys who are pretty much blind to reason or established lore and power. It's a ton of hypotheticals "well the Forsaken can raise dragons!" or "the Forsaken can just instaplague everywhere on Azeroth with no ramifications!"

    Sylvanas wouldn't even be in the Horde if she were confident she would take over Eastern Kingdoms. Her forces are dwindling and she even admitted in Tides of War that she was fearful that Garrosh's aggression could result in the Humans and Dwarves marching north in revenge and she doesn't have the military strength to hold against them.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    Did you even bothered to ever play the wc3 alliance and scourge campaign? Humanity was much stronger in Lorderaron and before the destruction that came with the burning legion, the plague cause major havok turn each city into undead factory. The Culling of Stratholme should even known by players that only bothered playing wow exclusively.

    Humans are just not prepared for a plague, and the only human that did fight it was Arthas. Neither uther nor jaina did a single thing against the plague they were both utterly useless and helpless like your mentioned stupid npcs.

    Whats needed is just the element of surprise, by the time Sylvanas declares war, the plague is allready spreaded and its too late. Even horde players can freely use that subway in stormwind that leads to iron forge and nothing can be done to stop them, some forsaken or goblins in disguise could act as harmles traders and bring their infected crops in there.

    There is no intelligence, sword, magic, tanks, submarines, navy whatever to prevent that biological surprise attack, that is so devastating that the alliance can't recover from it.

    Humans are very weak, but allowed to be spared their lifes for the sake of a story. >.>
    Forsaken Blight isn't infectious like Scourge Plague and kills people instantly like a toxic gas (vs. Plague killing over 3 days). Also, it doesn't turn infected into undead, it just kills them.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    They have a few advantages. The plague, and the Val'kyr, but yes they're not as OP as some people claim, if they were they wouldn't need the Horde, and if Sylvannus didn't need the Horde I doubt she'd be a part of it.
    When Sylvanas needed the horde, their scientists were still doing their research of a new and more deadlier plague. After the event at the Wrathgate Putress betrayed Sylvanas and the Horde and she needed to get rid of him and Varimathras.

    After these events the Lichking was defeated and she got the Val'kyr under her command, too.

    The horde no longer is useful for her, she doesn't need the horde any longer with all threats eliminated the civil war and lich king and access to the plague and val'kyr necromancy. Its just the focus on the civil war over at orgrimmar and perhaps other stale mmo reasions why the story can't progress for her.
    Same can be said about Lor'themar Theron, her most important and perhaps only ally in the region.

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