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  1. #1

    Sylvannas and the ethics of raising undead

    Ok. I don't get this.

    Sylvannas, when she died for the 1st time at the hands of Arthas, according to the story on the website, her soul was at peace but Arthas brought her back as undead and she hated him for that.

    Also, it seems undead who are killed the 2nd time and permanently, don't have their souls go to the same plane of peace that the souls of mortals go, but to a hellish void filled with terror.

    Questions:
    1. How come newly risen undead don't hate Sylvannas for pulling them from their rest, as she hated Arthas ?
    2. Why is Sylvannas dooming these souls to the eternal void and being fine with it ?
    3. Is there any logic to this or is it "cause Metzen derp" ?
    Last edited by Noggis; 2013-07-29 at 05:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Throren's Avatar
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    1. Some do. If you see the starting zone some npcs that are risen go and refuse to join the forsaken and run off (and are killed by forsaken later) while others say how they should be dead and remain dead and kill themselves. The auto-forsaken loyalty doesn't make much sense but...game mechanics > lore in this instance.

    2. Sylvanas is fine with it because she only cares for herself. The more undead there are, the bigger the meat shield protecting her from eternal damnation in "hell" (see her short story)

    3. I want to say a bit of both.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Shefu's Avatar
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    Go read up on some more lore. She's not just a regular "undead" or the same "person" that she used to be. She's a faction leader. The Queen of a "Race" that can not procreate, so she's basically looking out for her people. She looks at the Valkyr as the solution to this problem. Who's to say that when the Valkyr raise these new undead they don't soothe their minds into making their transition smooth? Arthas raised undead for the sole purpose of destruction, he would personally torment some of his victims just because he was evil (Morgraine anyone?!). I am not implying that she's being just, or moral but as a leader sometimes you need to do what is best for your people, the Forsaken have no other solution, at one point they would all simply die out, and what would happen then?

    What I find ironic is that Alliance players looks down at her, but what about all the Forsaken that were killed in the battle for Gilneas? If Forsaken are monsters for raising the dead, what are Gilneans for spreading the curse of the Worgen?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Noggis View Post
    2. Why is Sylvannas dooming these souls to the eternal void and being fine with it ?
    because she is afraid.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Noggis View Post
    1. How come newly risen undead don't hate Sylvannas for pulling them from their rest
    Only they know what they witnessed there, and if undeath is preferable to them...
    The common man is like a worm in the gut of a corpse, trapped inside a prison of cold flesh, helpless and uncaring, unaware even of the inevitability of its own doom.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Go read up on some more lore. She's not just a regular "undead" or the same "person" that she used to be. She's a faction leader. The Queen of a "Race" that can not procreate, so she's basically looking out for her people. She looks at the Valkyr as the solution to this problem. Who's to say that when the Valkyr raise these new undead they don't soothe their minds into making their transition smooth? Arthas raised undead for the sole purpose of destruction, he would personally torment some of his victims just because he was evil (Morgraine anyone?!). I am not implying that she's being just, or moral but as a leader sometimes you need to do what is best for your people, the Forsaken have no other solution, at one point they would all simply die out, and what would happen then?

    What I find ironic is that Alliance players looks down at her, but what about all the Forsaken that were killed in the battle for Gilneas? If Forsaken are monsters for raising the dead, what are Gilneans for spreading the curse of the Worgen?
    1. she doesnt care at all about the forsaken, they are a tool to keep her from ever going back to the afterlife again. basically one big meat shield.

    2. there is no evidence that the worgen curse prevents you from going to a good afterlife since it is a druid form
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Shefu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    1. she doesnt care at all about the forsaken, they are a tool to keep her from ever going back to the afterlife again. basically one big meat shield.

    2. there is no evidence that the worgen curse prevents you from going to a good afterlife since it is a druid form
    Sigh, you don't know much do you?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Go read up on some more lore. She's not just a regular "undead" or the same "person" that she used to be. She's a faction leader. The Queen of a "Race" that can not procreate, so she's basically looking out for her people. She looks at the Valkyr as the solution to this problem. Who's to say that when the Valkyr raise these new undead they don't soothe their minds into making their transition smooth? Arthas raised undead for the sole purpose of destruction, he would personally torment some of his victims just because he was evil (Morgraine anyone?!). I am not implying that she's being just, or moral but as a leader sometimes you need to do what is best for your people, the Forsaken have no other solution, at one point they would all simply die out, and what would happen then?

    What I find ironic is that Alliance players looks down at her, but what about all the Forsaken that were killed in the battle for Gilneas? If Forsaken are monsters for raising the dead, what are Gilneans for spreading the curse of the Worgen?
    Several things.

    1. Sylvannas raises undead herself long before she had the val'kyrs, in vanilla, tbc and wotlk. The val'kyrs only came in cataclysm.
    2. What the hell are you talking about ?! The forsaken attacked Gilneas, were the gilneans not entitled to defend themselves ?! The forsaken wanted to kill them all and even used the plague.
    3. The curse is not being spread forcefully. Only the mindless worgen beasts did that. Some humans are willingly accepting the curse because it makes them immune to the plague of undeath.

    Anyway, this isn't a thread for fanboyism, so please be on topic.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Noggis View Post
    Sylvannas, when she died for the 1st time at the hands of Arthas, according to the story on the website, her soul was at peace but Arthas brought her back as undead and she hated him for that.
    Wrong. She hated Arthas for torturing her soul and making her watch helplessly as he destroyed her home and slaughtered her people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggis View Post
    Also, it seems undead who are killed the 2nd time and permanently, don't have their souls go to the same plane of peace that the souls of mortals go, but to a hellish void filled with terror.
    2. Why is Sylvannas dooming these souls to the eternal void and being fine with it?
    We've only seen this happen to 2 people, Arthas and Sylvanas. We don't know enough about that realm to make any conclusions. Them being assholes could very well have been the reason for going there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggis View Post
    1. How come newly risen undead don't hate Sylvannas for pulling them from their rest, as she hated Arthas?
    Because they have free will and Sylvanas isn't feeding off their souls like the LK does to the Scourge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggis View Post
    1. Sylvannas raises undead herself long before she had the val'kyrs, in vanilla, tbc and wotlk. The val'kyrs only came in cataclysm.
    No. She never had the ability to raise Forsaken before Val'kyr. Back then, Sylvanas was liberating Scourge to repopulate the Forsaken.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  10. #10
    you didn't play Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne didn't you.. Arthas didn't just killed her. When he attacked Quel'Danas Sylvanas was the one defending it. She was pretty good at annoying and delaying Arthas, even if she was constantly pushed back. Eventually Arthas managed to overrun her forces and personally slay her after which he raised her as a Banshee. Not a regular undead but haunted spirit that is torn away from it's body and is eternally damned. What's more he then used her against her own people and her own homeland - it was a punishment.
    When she eventually managed to break away from his total control (just like Kerringan and Zerg Overmind btw) she promised herself that she will slay Arthas. To do so she found her desecrated body, haunted it again (and rose as she's known now - a dark ranger), she also managed to break some of the undead from Arthas' will (creating Forsaken).

    Forsaken as a race originally were those that were raised by Lich King and then managed to free themselves from his will. So for them Sylvanas was a savior, someone who brought them back their lost free will.
    New Forsaken, raised by Valkyrs now - are actually the only way for the "old" Forsaken to persevere since they cannot procreate otherwise. What's more after they are raised by Valkyrs - they are given a choice - whether they want to stay undead or not.. Their morals are really ambigous though, and not their survival is the only good in the eyes of Forsaken.

    To cut it all short -
    1. Forsaken don't hate Sylvanas because they are retaining their free will and can do whatever they want. They can leave, they don;t have to obey her (At least they believe so). They are actually given a second change to "live"..

    2. She need reinforcements - as a race they cannot procreate so they would eventually die out and be overrun by Gilnean/Alliance. While they want to persevere and control their territory (And even spread out!) - they need "fresh blood". The new risen Forsaken are sort of "lesser evil" for the good of the whole race.

    3. Ye the logic is there, and it's simple. We either do whatever we can do "live" or we'll perish very soon.. Many of them don't want to die second time...
    Quote Originally Posted by Archaeon View Post
    In tbc everyone wished they were playing vanilla. In cataclysm everyone will wish they were playing wotlk.
    ^------True story!!

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Shefu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    No. She never had the ability to raise Forsaken before Val'kyr. Back then, Sylvanas was liberating Scourge to repopulate the Forsaken.
    Pretty much this, but OP got butthurt because I told him to go read up on his lore. You were also correct on all the other points. Some people just started playing yesterday as Alliance and decide to write about shit they don't know. Particularly shit that we, those who've been Horde/Forsaken since pretty much vanilla. But yeah, whatever. Some people just like being "right".

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Sigh, you don't know much do you?
    thats your reply? i dont know much?

    show me one bit of evidence that the worgen curse prevents you from going to a good afterlife?

    worgen are a modified version of the druid wolf pack form. druids banned it because it was hard to switch in and out of and the more time you spent in it the more feral you became.

    the worgen curse is nothing like the curse of undeath, it doesnt doom you to torture when you die.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the worgen curse is nothing like the curse of undeath, it doesnt doom you to torture when you die.
    We don't know that the curse of undeath does either. There are confounding variables for why Arthas and Sylvanas might go to hell (they were pretty nasty people), we can't conclude that it was purely because of being undead. It might keep them from going to the Light, but it doesn't mean they go to hell. There's more than one type of afterlife darkness.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Sigh, you don't know much do you?
    Did you read her short story? If not, go read it and then come back and tell me how much she cares about the Forsaken.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    We don't know that the curse of undeath does either. There are confounding variables for why Arthas and Sylvanas might go to hell (they were pretty nasty people), we can't conclude that it was purely because of being undead.
    arthas wasnt a nasty person.

    anything post gaining frostmourne doesnt count because he lost his soul
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    arthas wasnt a nasty person.

    anything post gaining frostmourne doesnt count because he lost his soul
    No he didn't. The novel describes how he murders the good part of his soul after merging with Ner'zhul.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    No he didn't. The novel describes how he murders the good part of his soul after merging with Ner'zhul.
    frostmourne stole his soul and then ner'zhul forced him to start killing innocent people and his father.

    everything arthas did before he lost his soul was for the good of his people. everything after that doesnt count because he lost everything that made him arthas
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  18. #18
    Field Marshal Platex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Sigh, you don't know much do you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Pretty much this, but OP got butthurt because I told him to go read up on his lore. You were also correct on all the other points. Some people just started playing yesterday as Alliance and decide to write about shit they don't know. Particularly shit that we, those who've been Horde/Forsaken since pretty much vanilla. But yeah, whatever. Some people just like being "right".
    and your attitude suggests you fall into that latter category. You're talking about the made-up lore of a game, which has come from someone's imagination. It's not a degree course. Drop the offensive superiority complex and grow up mate, or all together stop posting and derailing this thread into a personal war. You're embarrassing yourself.

    On-topic, for all we know, the abyss that Sylvanas found herself in could be related to her Banshee status, or could be the fate of all Undead - the sad truth is that until Blizzard put out a content patch or book based around the Undead, we don't really know.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord
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    The Forsaken are one of the only truly evil races in WoW.

    They exist in hatred and bitterness and want to spread their undeath and eternal plight onto others.

    Obviously there's a few exceptions such as the forsaken in the Argent Dawn, but most are happy watching others suffer their fate.

    If WC4 ever happens one of the first orders of business will be expelling them from the horde and massacring them I imagine

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    everything arthas did before he lost his soul was for the good of his people.
    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Arthas murdered innocent people. Not just civilians, but also mercenaries he hired.
    everything after that doesnt count because he lost everything that made him arthas
    No, not exactly. There is a quest chain in Northrend devoted to Arthas rejecting his soul AFTER he become the Lich King, which is long after he took up Frostmourne. And Ner'zhul never had full control of him, hence why Arthas overpowered him and assumed full control.
    I mourn the loss of a man of true vision and talent. You were my idol, Mr. Giger.
    You gave faces to my dreams and nightmares and sparked my imagination throughout my entire life. You will be missed.

    Hans Rudolf Giger
    2/5/1940 - 5/12/2014

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