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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    "With Arthas gone, so too was the control he held over the undead masses of Lordaeron. After recovering my body, I freed the remaining Scourge that were left behind." Why doesn't she do this more? There are still plenty of Scourge left in Lordaeron.
    probably because most of the masses of the Scourge are too far gone, just far too mindless, such as ghouls and whatever
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #482
    I would love an expansion pack where we focus on Sylvannas, take back Lordaeron for the Alliance and possibly make it the main city again, like it was before Arthas killed his father and betrayed sylvannas. The Undead could go live in a slumber under orgrimmar or something.

    Her character comes with so much good lore to offer it surprises me we haven't seen more of her.

  3. #483
    I know in tides of war Sylvanas was quite nervous of retaliation, even saying. "King Varian would march on my borders and overtake Undercity." Along those lines.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    probably because most of the masses of the Scourge are too far gone, just far too mindless, such as ghouls and whatever
    Also many of them wish to try and carry on Arthas' work rather then join the forsaken as is the case with Scholomance
    The world was just as bad when you were young as it is today. You only see it now because of your age.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by eillas View Post
    I know in tides of war Sylvanas was quite nervous of retaliation, even saying. "King Varian would march on my borders and overtake Undercity." Along those lines.
    “Warchief!” The voice was female, at once both musical and cold. Sylvanas Windrunner, former high elf ranger-general and now the leader of the Forsaken, rose and gazed at Garrosh with intense glowing eyes. “The Alliance may indeed not send reinforcements. Not at once, at least. They will turn and vent their wrath instead upon those of us in the Eastern Kingdoms—my people and the sin’dorei.”
    She looked at Lor’themar almost imploringly. The blood elf leader’s face remained impassive. “Varian will march on my borders and destroy us!” The comment was addressed to Garrosh, but she continued to stare at Lor’themar. Baine felt for her; she was hoping for support from one who might reasonably be expected to give it, and finding none.


    Lor'themar is an asshole. He sat there silent just to spite Sylvanas even though her objections benefited him as well.

  6. #486
    He's not being an asshole, He's being petty. Sylvanas has been blackmailing him since Wotlk, so it's no surprise he let's her sweat.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by MechaMoose View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27548

    Our enemies are becoming smarter - adapting to our tactics. Recently an attack was made upon Pyrewood Village, southwest of here. Our troops occupying the town were decimated, of course, but what made the attack especially interesting was the racial composition of the attacking force. No humans were used.

    <Walden laughs.>

    Rightfully, they fear being reanimated as Forsaken.

    Let us teach the non-humans a lesson in fear. Together we will show them what happens to corpses that we cannot use.
    I don't bite and agree with the comment further down:

    "The tactics the Forsaken use are identical to the tactics the Lich King used. Do you not remember? Sylvanas' val'kyr used to be Arthas' val'kyr. It is the exact same tactic. Did you not see this entire questing zone through to completion? Do you not know that these exact val'kyr have resurrected a dead Sylvanas not once, but twice? Just in case you weren't aware, she is a high elf, not a human. No, this is simply sloppy writing."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    “Warchief!” The voice was female, at once both musical and cold. Sylvanas Windrunner, former high elf ranger-general and now the leader of the Forsaken, rose and gazed at Garrosh with intense glowing eyes. “The Alliance may indeed not send reinforcements. Not at once, at least. They will turn and vent their wrath instead upon those of us in the Eastern Kingdoms—my people and the sin’dorei.”
    She looked at Lor’themar almost imploringly. The blood elf leader’s face remained impassive. “Varian will march on my borders and destroy us!” The comment was addressed to Garrosh, but she continued to stare at Lor’themar. Baine felt for her; she was hoping for support from one who might reasonably be expected to give it, and finding none.


    Lor'themar is an asshole. He sat there silent just to spite Sylvanas even though her objections benefited him as well.
    nope, he is just a smartass who doesn't fall for Sylvanas tricks, Sylvanas always pretend to be weak, dumb and naive whenever the warchief is around. And of course she tells him there is no plague, too.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    I don't bite and agree with the comment further down:

    "The tactics the Forsaken use are identical to the tactics the Lich King used. Do you not remember? Sylvanas' val'kyr used to be Arthas' val'kyr. It is the exact same tactic. Did you not see this entire questing zone through to completion? Do you not know that these exact val'kyr have resurrected a dead Sylvanas not once, but twice? Just in case you weren't aware, she is a high elf, not a human. No, this is simply sloppy writing."
    And if you paid attention to the lore, you'd know that Sylvanas is a special case because of the pact that bound the Val'kyr to her. They die when they resurrect her because they literally take her place in the afterlife. You can't claim it's the same as what they use on the rest of the Forsaken.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 03:18 AM.

  9. #489
    1) The plague will not allow Sylvanas to replenish her troops.
    2) Varian will not allow her to just set up all nice and fancy.
    3) You really want a crazy woman like Jaina having an excuse to unleash the focusing iris? Lets be honest here....she is only moments away from going psycho and dropping a massive bomb on anything and unleashing the kirin tor.
    4) As people have said, WC2 Horde couldn't beat the dwarves inside Ironforge. The horde back then had the might of the legion behind them plus I do believe they were chaos orcs as well.
    5) You think Vol Jin, Baine and even Lorethmar would allow her to just walk up to Ironforge with the entire idea of sparking a massive conflict? Those 3 leaders have pretty strong ties with their alliance counterparts.

    There 5 reasons why Sylvanas would herald the extinction of the Forsaken if she attempted something so stupid.
    Cheese. Its amazing. Until your feet smell like it.

  10. #490
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    ofc not,how will the alliance players level up if she does?

  11. #491
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zechs-cenarius View Post
    4) As people have said, WC2 Horde couldn't beat the dwarves inside Ironforge. The horde back then had the might of the legion behind them plus I do believe they were chaos orcs as well.
    Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? The Legion had no involvement with the orcs beyond Sargeras tempting Gul'dan into opening the Dark Portal. Did you people even play WC? None of the orc campaigns ever had any Legion backing. Legion backing means having a ton of demons supplementing/commanding your forces like Ner'zhul/Kel'thuzad had in WC3, that's what the Legion backing someone looks like.

    Shit, Legion interference is what caused the orcs to fail in WC2. Gul'dan deserted at a crucial moment when his forces were needed to go chase after the Tomb of Sargeras where he was killed by demons.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 03:27 AM.

  12. #492
    Give it time yeah. Every minute, every war, every death she grows in power. And if you noticed she sat this whole ride nearly out. And we even catch her shamelessly raising her BE allies. Its another Scourge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? The Legion had no involvement with the orcs beyond Sargeras tempting Gul'dan into opening the Dark Portal. Did you people even play WC? None of the orc campaigns ever had any Legion backing. Legion backing means having a ton of demons supplementing/commanding your forces like Ner'zhul/Kel'thuzad in WC3, that's what the Legion backing someone looks like.

    Shit, Legion interference is what caused the orcs to fail in WC2. Gul'dan deserted at a crucial moment to go chase after the Tomb of Sargeras where he was killed by demons.
    Plus we saw in WoW what happens when the legion attacks IF....... All them player deaths yo.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  13. #493
    Ironforge is essentially in a giant cave. If there is no way for the plague to get in, they will all suffocate eventually. They can't grow their own food, so they will starve. It's incredibly defensible, but it's also a tomb.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    Did you even bothered to ever play the wc3 alliance and scourge campaign? Humanity was much stronger in Lorderaron and before the destruction that came with the burning legion, the plague cause major havok turn each city into undead factory. The Culling of Stratholme should even known by players that only bothered playing wow exclusively.

    Humans are just not prepared for a plague, and the only human that did fight it was Arthas. Neither uther nor jaina did a single thing against the plague they were both utterly useless and helpless like your mentioned stupid npcs.

    Whats needed is just the element of surprise, by the time Sylvanas declares war, the plague is allready spreaded and its too late. Even horde players can freely use that subway in stormwind that leads to iron forge and nothing can be done to stop them, some forsaken or goblins in disguise could act as harmles traders and bring their infected crops in there.

    There is no intelligence, sword, magic, tanks, submarines, navy whatever to prevent that biological surprise attack, that is so devastating that the alliance can't recover from it.

    Humans are very weak, but allowed to be spared their lifes for the sake of a story. >.>
    Sylvannas' Valkyr are not NEARLY as good or effective at creating undead forces as the scourge was, not to mention she doesn't have a means to control all the undead she does raise like the lich king did. Furthermore, the Alliance was in a state of complacency when that happened, it was their first time facing such a threat as well. After WC3 they would likely be more careful about a potential plague, and even then, the Forsaken plague is VERY different. It's basically toxic ooze they can throw out of a catpult or spray around to contiminate the land. It doesn't turn people undead, it can't be used in subtle ways like the scourge plague to infect people and let them spread it before they turn.

    And yes I did play WC 3. I'm wondering if you've played WoW if you think the forsaken 'plague' and the scourge 'plague' are similar in anything but name.

    And you make it sound like it'd be so easy for a bunch of undead to secretly set up their plague in alliance lands.

    Also, for the tram, horde players can use it freely because of GAME MECHANICS not lore, that's like saying Alliance can destroy Org easy by just sneaking bombs onto the zeppelin from STV to Org and dropping them off when it arrives. You DO realize that lore and game mechanics are very different things I hope. In lore a bunch of UNDEAD trying to sneak PLAGUE onto the tram would be no easy task.

    Another thing. Sylvannas is very afraid in Tides of War that if Garrosh destroys Theramore, the Alliance will come crashing down on her. The Forsaken are by no means invincible, and like it or not she NEEDS the Horde as a deterrent to a full fledged Alliance invasion.
    Last edited by Florena; 2013-07-28 at 03:38 AM.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Zechs-cenarius View Post
    4) As people have said, WC2 Horde couldn't beat the dwarves inside Ironforge. The horde back then had the might of the legion behind them plus I do believe they were chaos orcs as well.
    what novel? Played wacraft 2 alliance and horde campaign + beyond the dark portal, ironforge was never besieged or touched. And the legion was hardly involved with the exception of a few demons guarding gul'dan and cho'gall and black rock spire.
    Anyways, the main army consisted of orcs there wasn't anywhere a big demon army to be seen, its not reign of chaos with full deployed demon armies + scourge. If the old horde in wc2 would have that, they wouldn't have lost. Instead Gul'dan was teared apart in the tomb of sargeras by demons. All they did is backslash on one of the most important orc leaders and killing him, in fact they helped the alliance that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post

    Shit, Legion interference is what caused the orcs to fail in WC2. Gul'dan deserted at a crucial moment when his forces were needed to go chase after the Tomb of Sargeras where he was killed by demons.
    while this is the official lore, in the game itself wc2 orc campaign scenario tomb of sargeras, the demons helped gul'dan and cho'gal and the tomb was under full control of the stormreaver and twilight hammer clan. Orgrimm Doomhammers army slayed both clans and their leaders among with their demons.
    The whole ordeal weakened the orcs so much, that they lost the war with the alliance.

    It was all retconned afterwards.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    what novel? Played wacraft 2 alliance and horde campaign + beyond the dark portal, ironforge was never besieged or touched. And the legion was hardly involved with the exception of a few demons guarding gul'dan and cho'gall and black rock spire.
    Anyways, the main army consisted of orcs there wasn't anywhere a big demon army to be seen, its not reign of chaos with full deployed demon armies + scourge. If the old horde in wc2 would have that, they wouldn't have lost. Instead Gul'dan was teared apart in the tomb of sargeras by demons. All they did is backslash on one of the most important orc leaders and killing him, in fact they helped the alliance that way.

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    while this is the official lore, in the game itself wc2 orc campaign scenario tomb of sargeras, the demons helped gul'dan and cho'gal and the tomb was under full control of the stormreaver and twilight hammer clan. Orgrimm Doomhammers army slayed both clans and their leaders among with their demons. It was all retconned afterwards.
    Canonically, I think the orcs sieged IF but but I don't think they ever put their full might into taking it either, their main goal was Lordaeron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    what novel? Played wacraft 2 alliance and horde campaign + beyond the dark portal, ironforge was never besieged or touched. And the legion was hardly involved with the exception of a few demons guarding gul'dan and cho'gall and black rock spire.
    Anyways, the main army consisted of orcs there wasn't anywhere a big demon army to be seen, its not reign of chaos with full deployed demon armies + scourge. If the old horde in wc2 would have that, they wouldn't have lost. Instead Gul'dan was teared apart in the tomb of sargeras by demons. All they did is backslash on one of the most important orc leaders and killing him, in fact they helped the alliance that way.

    - - - Updated - - -



    while this is the official lore, in the game itself wc2 orc campaign scenario tomb of sargeras, the demons helped gul'dan and cho'gal and the tomb was under full control of the stormreaver and twilight hammer clan. Orgrimm Doomhammers army slayed both clans and their leaders among with their demons.
    The whole ordeal weakened the orcs so much, that they lost the war with the alliance.

    It was all retconned afterwards.
    The orcs lost because Doomhammer decided it was more important to punish Gul'dans treachery than it was to stay in Lordaeron and take their assured victory, according to the novel if I remember correctly, though his defection might have left them without the man power to finish Lordaeron. But one also needs to keep in mind they only got to the gates of Lordaeron because of Perenolde's treachery, there was a major betrayal on both sides in the war. Win or lose, the war would have gone very differently if both betrayals were taken out.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Ironforge is essentially in a giant cave. If there is no way for the plague to get in, they will all suffocate eventually. They can't grow their own food, so they will starve. It's incredibly defensible, but it's also a tomb.
    Just blocking the mountain passes is enough. I don't see food growing in the lands of eternal winter that is Dun Morogh and they also have no harbor for food and trade, i bet they rely heavy on trading and do so over the mountain passes. They will starve rather quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post


    The orcs lost because Doomhammer decided it was more important to punish Gul'dans treachery than it was to stay in Lordaeron and take their assured victory, according to the novel if I remember correctly, though his defection might have left them without the man power to finish Lordaeron. But one also needs to keep in mind they only got to the gates of Lordaeron because of Perenolde's treachery, there was a major betrayal on both sides in the war. Win or lose, the war would have gone very differently if both betrayals were taken out.
    Wasn't his smartest decision, underestimated the humans more than Gul'dan.

    Well, this was in wacraftII canon, too. Perenolde betrayed the alliance you had a campaign i think it was act III in the norther region to end his treachery. One of the few maps where you had a war amongst only humans, felt a bit like a civil war, humans vs humans.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-07-28 at 03:55 PM.

  18. #498
    Lore-wise, it's feasible she could take over more of the Eastern Kingdoms...but she would have to get past Khaz Modan. The Dwarves are very resilient, even moreso with the active help of the Gnomes in recent events. Even if the Forsaken managed to pump the plague inside Ironforge, the Gnomes could find a way to pump it out as they've done with the irradiation in Gnomeregan.

    The quests in Silverpine (namely, Pyrewood) suggest that the Forsaken plague/Val'kyr cannot raise the dead of Dwarves and Night Elves, among other things. One of Godfrey's lackeys comments that the Alliance has gotten smarter, and sent in a special unit that the Forsaken couldn't turn into undead. The mobs there are (you guessed it!) Dwarves and Night Elves. This would pose a problem for the Forsaken when trying to take Khaz Modan. Most of their war efforts have included raising those they kill, adding them to the Forsaken War Machine. This wouldn't be able to be done in Khaz Modan, meaning they would either have to have more firepower, or create a new strain of plague that would turn Dwarves and other races into undead. Without either of those, they would lose more than they would create, thus making their forces considerably weaker.

    Everything else? Yeah, they'd be able to take most of Stormwind's lands pretty easily, considering that most are farming lands. Duskwood would be an interesting place to see Forsaken, considering it's already a war zone for several races and groups: mindless undead, feral worgen, Gilnean worgen, and humans. The weapons, plague, and val'kyr in service of the Forsaken could do some major damage to human settlements. Not so much anything else beyond that, however. She would definitely need to get stronger forces, more undead, or allies...none of which she really has at the ready so far.
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  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post

    And yes I did play WC 3. I'm wondering if you've played WoW if you think the forsaken 'plague' and the scourge 'plague' are similar in anything but name.

    And you make it sound like it'd be so easy for a bunch of undead to secretly set up their plague in alliance lands.
    What makes you think, that the forsaken don't have access to the scourge plague AND their own plague? The scourge plague isn't that difficult to do? People had to eat infected crops to get turned to undeads, while the forsake plague is much more advanced and kills instantly and can be used via catapults. If anything they mastered the plague alltogether more than the scourge even. Just remember wrathgate didn't kill the forsaken the alliance AND horde with the plague? The lich king retreated, too.

    No one here claimed a bunch of undead would smuggle the scourge version of the plague into the human realms. In WC3 human cultists did it. The forsaken will use spys too, spys usually cannot be recognized by the enemy. They can be human, gnome, dwarven anything....they can be mercaneries paid for this mission or just mind controlled, or they just want to be immortal and turned too. Or they are elven vampires in disguise pretending to be high elves.(icc wing)


    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Also, for the tram, horde players can use it freely because of GAME MECHANICS not lore, that's like saying Alliance can destroy Org easy by just sneaking bombs onto the zeppelin from STV to Org and dropping them off when it arrives. You DO realize that lore and game mechanics are very different things I hope. In lore a bunch of UNDEAD trying to sneak PLAGUE onto the tram would be no easy task.
    Game mechanics aside, what do you think is potentially more dangerous? Conservative weapons and military might or a very dangerous bio weapon? The plague is more potent than anything we have on the real world. We don't have a bio weapon that mass kills people and mass turns them to undead. And all this in a world of azeroth with very limited ways to deal with it. Jaina and the Kirin Tor were unable to do a single thing in wc3 either, why they would save the day out of the sudden? if anything its to late when they react and EK is turned. I found no magics in azeroth that will reverse undead condition.

    Actually, its like the forsaken using nukes while the alliance doesn't have a single one. Anyone attacking the forsaken certainly is paying a high price. Also people have bad memory here and forget that Sylvanas was once the finest elven general of silvermoon. She know tactics and isn't easy to kill. Arthas had a much bigger army, the scourge behind him and still had trouble to kill her until the final battle. Later when she was turned she almost killed him, cause she trapped him. When it comes to wow, she is pretending to be weak, those underestimated usually prevail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Another thing. Sylvannas is very afraid in Tides of War that if Garrosh destroys Theramore, the Alliance will come crashing down on her. The Forsaken are by no means invincible, and like it or not she NEEDS the Horde as a deterrent to a full fledged Alliance invasion.
    I said it many times, she isn't afraid of a single thing, she wasn't even afraid to commit suicide, she knows death all too well. She dealed with Arthas many times and he was afraid when he got trapped by her in frozen throne and only kel thuzad managed to save his sorry ass.

    Furthermore she is pretending to be weak to buy more time for her plague research. She is also pretending she has no plague at all, if you ever played catas forsaken quests in silverspine and listened to the speech of both Garrosh and Sylvanas. There might be something in Gilneas, too when you listen to her while hidden in a church as worgen.

    We will see what will happen with sylvanas, sad that the lore in wow is so stale and slow developing compared to the rts games. In the end metzen can make her all powerful like Kerrigan and the lichking or weak and forgotten. Just comes down of his writing. The potential to be extremely dangerous is there, on multiple point of views not just cause of the plague, but it plays a big factor, she knows why she puts so much time into this.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-07-28 at 04:35 PM.

  20. #500
    No way dude, that's silly.

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