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  1. #61
    The legendary quest line is unfairly prejudiced against raiders who want to switch classes. There can be various reasons behind why raiders want to reroll.

    In any case, I do argue that even lacking legendary quest, warlocks and mages may still out do warriors, especially since the cloaks that drop in 5.4 aren't too far behind.

    I haven't played fury too long but it does get abit stale. Hit BT as often as you can and align cooldowns for CS. At close to BIS, you don't really need to plan your RBs anymore. You can actually get by okay by dumping RBs as and when the shinys light up... Go into CS phase and still come out okay. Come 5.4 , crit will reach new highs and fury would become a key mashing spec. Hit BT. Hit CS. Press RB whenever it blinks

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by senturion View Post
    You can actually get by okay by dumping RBs as and when the shinys light up... Go into CS phase and still come out okay. Come 5.4 , crit will reach new highs and fury would become a key mashing spec. Hit BT. Hit CS. Press RB whenever it blinks
    This mind setting is part of the reason why so many call for fury buffs.

  3. #63
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    If your guild is not world top 20 or so, and people are worrying about re-rolling because you're class is not quite as OP as the next, then you/your guild should seriously reconsider their priorities. If you were to do that, you'd pretty much only bring Prot Pallies, DK's, Warlocks and Disc Priests to your raid!
    Yes this tier/expansion/game is melee unfriendly; yes Warriors have been shit on most of the time by Rogues/DK's. But Hunters, Ele Shaman and Shadow Priests have been in a similar spot this tier, when compared to Warlocks, Mages and (at times) Boomkins.
    Consider that Ret is even worse off than Warriors are, as are Enh Shaman and Feral Druids (though granted those two specs are by far the rarest melee).

    Remember too, Warriors can excel on quite a few fights in ToT, whether by use of Bladestorm or taking advantage of long execute phases. I do feel that to be kind of gimmicky, but you take what you can get! The problem with Rogue/DK's specifically is their ability to pad and/or scumbag dps far exceeds ours; either by lawl-disease spread or rediculous amounts of damage reduction/mechanic immunities.

    Sorry I am kind of rambling, but anyone who re-rolls because one class is better than the other might as well not be playing it in the first place, play what you ENJOY first off. Leave the class of the month to the constant QQ of the PVP world.
    My guild has always been Melee dps heavy, we ran most of T14 and T15 with 8-9 melee and still clear with a very respectable ranking. I think at one time we had 3 DK's, 2 Warriors, 1 Ret and 3 Rogues (plus 2 Warrior tanks) raiding together on some of the more "melee unfriendly" fights like Tsulong and Ra-den (which most guilds brought 3-4 melee at most).
    Its just like the guilds who say you have to have a Monk or Prot Pally; I call bullshit.

  4. #64
    Hunters and ele's are probably better overall than warriors right now, ele has absurd aoe and pretty decent single target and with the buffs hunters received there pretty strong now. ferals and enhance also are stronger than warriors for what you need melee for, padding with bladestorm is fun and will get you High on the meters but single target is melees main purpose in most top guilds, and warriors fall behind feral and enhance in that area. Burst aoe has been pretty much the only thing to carry our numbers this tier and ele and demo/destro are far better at aoeing along with higher single target, I mean demo is pretty much on top of our burst aoe but with vastly superior single target.
    Being viable is always subjective to what your guild deems as viable, for some arms is viable in there guild, for others being 20% or so behind most melee means being too far behind the weakest classes already and is just too much to warrant spots. Looking at next tier there are less fights to take advantage of burst aoe and more with sustained aoe/cleave that might benefit arms a lot more, but there's a lot of pure single target fights too where multidotting ranged will be able to hit adds melee can't. I hope blizz doesn't turn arms into the cleave spec and fury into burst aoe/single target as switching specs for each fight gets pretty tedious fast.

    It will be interesting to see though once the numbers pass goes through how melee and ranged are balanced as right now next tiers going to be a huge ranged fest with warriors further behind that last tier with less to pad on. Having done all the ptr testing so far decent melee are pretty far behind the ranged on pretty much everything with demo/aff and fire crushing melee by a scary amount

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    If your guild is not world top 20 or so, and people are worrying about re-rolling because you're class is not quite as OP as the next, then you/your guild should seriously reconsider their priorities. If you were to do that, you'd pretty much only bring Prot Pallies, DK's, Warlocks and Disc Priests to your raid!
    I lol'd at that. Unholy is no better than fury, and frost is no better than arms and will be worse than arms in 5.4. DK's were/are brought for a single talent (Gorefiends), which is really no different from people in this thread complaining that warriors are brought for rallying and demo/skull banner. Assassination still does decent damage, but even they are only brought because of smokebomb trivializing several mechanics and the fact that rogues can avoid so much damage.

    But I agree that the ideal set up includes a prot paladin, brewmaster, couple each of disc priests and mistweavers, 1 holy paladin, and a bunch of mages, warlocks and elemental shaman. Melee serve no purpose other than to deal inferior damage, soak up gear and interrupt when your ranged can't be bothered to.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    I lol'd at that. Unholy is no better than fury, and frost is no better than arms and will be worse than arms in 5.4. DK's were/are brought for a single talent (Gorefiends), which is really no different from people in this thread complaining that warriors are brought for rallying and demo/skull banner. Assassination still does decent damage, but even they are only brought because of smokebomb trivializing several mechanics and the fact that rogues can avoid so much damage.

    But I agree that the ideal set up includes a prot paladin, brewmaster, couple each of disc priests and mistweavers, 1 holy paladin, and a bunch of mages, warlocks and elemental shaman. Melee serve no purpose other than to deal inferior damage, soak up gear and interrupt when your ranged can't be bothered to.
    I lol'd at this. Unholy is better than Fury. It received some nerfs in 5.3 (that were needed) and it's been scaled down a bit but Unholy generally outperform Fury Warriors on most fights. The difference between banners and Gorefiends Grasp is that Gorefiends is borderline mandatory on some fights (Heroic Lei Shen).

    Rogues are only brought because of smokebomb and their damage mitigation? So the amount of damage they do has nothing to do with it? Rogues are among the best DPS in the game, bring a utility and their damage mitigation is borderline broken. They are brought because they are really damn good.
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  7. #67
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    I lol'd at this. Unholy is better than Fury. It received some nerfs in 5.3 (that were needed) and it's been scaled down a bit but Unholy generally outperform Fury Warriors on most fights. The difference between banners and Gorefiends Grasp is that Gorefiends is borderline mandatory on some fights (Heroic Lei Shen).

    Rogues are only brought because of smokebomb and their damage mitigation? So the amount of damage they do has nothing to do with it? Rogues are among the best DPS in the game, bring a utility and their damage mitigation is borderline broken. They are brought because they are really damn good.
    This. Fury has done a lot of catching up with Unholy as gear has improved, but the two specs are at best competitive. From a progression standpoint you assume people are entry level geared, not near BiS for the tier, which is why I wrote it the way I did.

    In 5.4, Unholy will drop. Mainly due to the lack of a Feathers type trinket to abuse diseases with, obviously blizzard has yet do wave their magic wand and "balance" dps for 5.4, but everything I've heard points to Frost making a come back.

    As for Rogues, Assassination Rogues are by and far the best Melee dps in the game right now and have been the whole tier. Not only are they very high damage to begin with, their immunities mean they get a much higher uptime on certain bosses than other classes, and better survivability as well.

    @Opeth: I can't remember the last time I saw a Feral or Enhance up high, but then I haven't played with any good ones in quite some time. Comparing to Ranged is much more difficult and really depends on the fight, but Hunters/Ele Sham don't generally give me much trouble.

    You'll never beat a Warlock, might as well get over that right now!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    This. Fury has done a lot of catching up with Unholy as gear has improved, but the two specs are at best competitive. From a progression standpoint you assume people are entry level geared, not near BiS for the tier, which is why I wrote it the way I did.

    In 5.4, Unholy will drop. Mainly due to the lack of a Feathers type trinket to abuse diseases with, obviously blizzard has yet do wave their magic wand and "balance" dps for 5.4, but everything I've heard points to Frost making a come back.

    As for Rogues, Assassination Rogues are by and far the best Melee dps in the game right now and have been the whole tier. Not only are they very high damage to begin with, their immunities mean they get a much higher uptime on certain bosses than other classes, and better survivability as well.

    @Opeth: I can't remember the last time I saw a Feral or Enhance up high, but then I haven't played with any good ones in quite some time. Comparing to Ranged is much more difficult and really depends on the fight, but Hunters/Ele Sham don't generally give me much trouble.

    You'll never beat a Warlock, might as well get over that right now!
    Enhance's burst ATM is just so incredible. Additionally, they can do a ton of healing. On Raden, our enhance can pump out 60-70k HPS. They do have a glaring weakness of lack of AOE though. Basically, all they are good for is supplemental heals and single target dps (which is what melee is expected to do anyways).

    As far as feral is concerned, I hear stories of greatness but we do not have a feral in our raid. Apparently if played correctly (arguably the most difficult spec in the game), feral can do massive damage.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    @Opeth: I can't remember the last time I saw a Feral or Enhance up high, but then I haven't played with any good ones in quite some time.
    Enhancement at the moment is the highest Burst spec in the game. Beside their burst, they also have even stronger offhealing than a Prot Paladin. Ferals, as Sjsctt said is the spec in the game with the highest skill cap. This means that you'll mostly see Ferals that aren't that good, but the few that has mastered the spec are up there with Rogues and Mages in capability to rock the meters.

  10. #70
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    Enhancement at the moment is the highest Burst spec in the game. Beside their burst, they also have even stronger offhealing than a Prot Paladin. Ferals, as Sjsctt said is the spec in the game with the highest skill cap. This means that you'll mostly see Ferals that aren't that good, but the few that has mastered the spec are up there with Rogues and Mages in capability to rock the meters.
    Fair enough, but in my opinion, if only a handful of players can pull it off, that equates to Feral as a spec not being as strong as Fury. At the very least, the chances of you beating one on an individual level is better!
    Neither Enh Shamans utility or burst can be denied. But overall parse wise, they are weaker than Fury. That obviously has a number of contributing factors.

    We've gone off on a terrible tangent. My whole point of this conversation wasn't to establish exactly what ranking each spec came in, the original point still remains: Fury is by no means horrible this tier, at worst they are middle of the pack.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    This means that you'll mostly see Ferals that aren't that good, but the few that has mastered the spec are up there with Rogues and Mages in capability to rock the meters.
    I know that as a fact from earlier expansions, but is this really still the case? If you compare fury and feral top 100 raidbots statistics with overall logs fury is much worse than feral.

  12. #72
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Archimitiros, actually I think that it is an incredibly valid question....would you rather have a spec that could do the DPS of a rogue/mage/feral (one of the good ones) but make it difficult? Meaning fury COULD do the dps of any class, but most could not live up to the potential.

    I do agree with your main point. Fury is mid-pack. Certain situations we are clutch.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt View Post
    Archimitiros, actually I think that it is an incredibly valid question....would you rather have a spec that could do the DPS of a rogue/mage/feral (one of the good ones) but make it difficult? Meaning fury COULD do the dps of any class, but most could not live up to the potential.

    I do agree with your main point. Fury is mid-pack. Certain situations we are clutch.


    Middle of the pack is bullshit, why the fuck do you people settle for being mediocre? In what world do you live in, where it's okay for us to be able to bust our asses, do our rotation, line up CDs, and we still do less than a lazy assassination rogue who doesn't want to be bothered with keeping rupture up? Let's just ignore a part of our rotation, lose 2% dps and still do better than most melee classes, it's cool.

    No, seriously, why are you okay with being mediocre?

  14. #74
    We are OK with being mediocre, not because we forever want to stay in the shadow of others, but due to the fact that we want the ones casting the shadows to come down to our level.

    That at least is how I see it.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by baconjesus View Post

    No, seriously, why are you okay with being mediocre?
    Well takes away responsibility as nobody expects you to deal top damage I suppose.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by baconjesus View Post
    Middle of the pack is bullshit, why the fuck do you people settle for being mediocre?
    Because when you stack DPS in order of maximum output, someone's got to be in the middle.
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  17. #77
    Yeah not being the best always justifies a buff.

  18. #78
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Yeah not being the best always justifies a buff.
    Because Blizzard only care about the top 100 DPS raiding Heroic in the least exposed setting, obviously.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/

    Looks like Fury's doing fine.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by d00f View Post
    Valech i dont know about what Situation u Talk but in a Guild with 4Heroics down fury may even TOP the DAMAGE meters because hes a better player then others.

    But in TOP Guilds Fury wouldnt do OK in damage !

    And i dont even know why u talking ur a DEF Warrior
    Our fury warrior is often 2nd/3rd in dps in many fights in our guild, granted Cart is one of the best players in the world.

  20. #80
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baconjesus View Post
    Middle of the pack is bullshit, why the fuck do you people settle for being mediocre? In what world do you live in, where it's okay for us to be able to bust our asses, do our rotation, line up CDs, and we still do less than a lazy assassination rogue who doesn't want to be bothered with keeping rupture up? Let's just ignore a part of our rotation, lose 2% dps and still do better than most melee classes, it's cool.

    No, seriously, why are you okay with being mediocre?
    First off, Middle does not equal Mediocre, secondly the answer is because there is always a middle, it is absolutely, positively, 100% impossible to completely balance DPS. The mechanics just do not support it, there will always be atleast one class/spec that does better due to X, Y, Z factor (gear, situation, talent, etc). I would much rather be middle of the pack instead of worst and hoping for a buff, or even best and dreading a nerf.
    Now, does this mean there are a few specs that are too strong and a few that are too weak? YES. I don't think anyone can argue that Assassination Rogues are not over balanced. Likewise Arms is completely subpar (although I don't feel bad about that because we have Fury spec, and personally I hate arms).

    The deltas that Xeraxis posted 25H DPS Bot should be taken with a heavy grain of salt, however you can easily see that each class has atleast one spec that is very close to all the others.

    Looking at your guilds damage meter and deciding you need to be buffed is laughable. You ignore all the major factors; such as each players Gear, Individual player skill, specific roles per fight, even luck. Especially this tier where RNG due to RPPM trinkets play an extremely heavy factor.
    I'm not saying Fury doesn't need buffs, personally I think we do, but not in terms of straight % damage increase across the board until we are magically the best dps.
    What we need is A) better survivability on par with other classes, B) better sustainable cleave and C) quality of life improvements such as CS not being parried, a slight speed boost after a successful Charge similar to Shadowstep, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt
    Archimitiros, actually I think that it is an incredibly valid question....would you rather have a spec that could do the DPS of a rogue/mage/feral (one of the good ones) but make it difficult? Meaning fury COULD do the dps of any class, but most could not live up to the potential.

    I do agree with your main point. Fury is mid-pack. Certain situations we are clutch.
    I personally don't like overly complicated player mechanics. I think most classes are in a good place as they are. I would rather see difficult fight mechanics that require you to execute your rotations correctly while paying attention to boss mechanics, instead of overly complicated player mechanics that are only really executable on a Patchwerk encounter.
    Player mechanics should be engaging, not overly punishing.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-07-29 at 04:54 AM.

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