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  1. #261
    High Overlord Ragu4's Avatar
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    Wrath was my favorite PvE expansion only cause my friends played the game, and anything is more fun when your friends play the game as well. And am I the only person in WoW that liked ToC? No trash, 5 quick fights, and also for me, our guild was server first for heroic beasts. I still have the mail shoulders I used on my paladin, which was also when you weren't locked into only wearing only one armor type, which i think its stupid. This game should be about choice, and the game worked fine when you could wear off gear pieces as a sub until you got your main piece. So yeah, guess I'm an outlier haha.

  2. #262
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    TBC gets a 9/10, -1 because the 10 to 25 man conversion required within Tier 4 and the drama that happened in ZA run teams, minor but worth mentioning

    Vanilla gets a 7/10, -3 because if people actually remember it accurately, spec pigeon-holing was worse than ever. Many raiders simply got away with being horrible, but the 40 man format gives points back in its favor because you could just get over the bads, keep those casual friends in the raid core, but still do the content. Nothing in my mind has ever rivaled the epic scale of AQ40. Skeram's quotes as you first set foot in the instance, before you even turned the corner to see him. Not even Ulduar comes close, I realize I'm in a minority there. AQ40 was grueling, some of the longest, worst raid nights of my life-- but I look back at it with a badge of pride.

    Cata gets a 7/10, -3 because Firelands was hastily thrown together (seemed like every rejected boss fight combined in one tier), FL was also too small, DS was too small. We didn't get our Vashj'ir raid, which is the aspect of lore I enjoy more than any other in the game. DS had a number of boss encounter issues and felt like a bit of a let-down just fighting tentacles. Tier 11 props up Cata's score big time, but it was too hard in relation to Tier 12/13. Tier 13 had severe class balancing issues (multidot, and seriously how did frost mage exist in such a horrid state for so long?). I don't quite get what happened with C'thun and N'zoth, seems to not be clearly written into post-Cata lore.

    WotLK gets a 6/10, -4 due to a ridiculous inconsistency in raid design. As great as Ulduar was, having BiS items drop in 10m when you were in a 25m guild (or vice versa) put a lot of stress on people. TOC made it even worse with the farming to get tier and killing the same boss 4 times per week. ICC refined it a bit, but still sucked the life out of any sane person. Encounter design was solid in WotLK. Ulduar's hard mode activations were the best concept they've had yet, topping it all off with Algalon, part of a quest rich in lore, is far more interesting than what they just tried to do with Ra-Den. If ToC wasn't part of the expansion and there was less simultaneous lockout inconsistency then I think it would've been the best raid expansion.

    MoP gets a 4/10, -6 because these fights aren't original. Everyone thinks it is hard to be original at this point in the game, but that isn't the reason. The real reason new encounter ideas can never get implemented without balancing techniques like "move out of x" or "stand 8 yds away" is because they are in a 10/25 man trap and they exhausted all their cool ideas in Cataclysm. Honestly, each tier needs a patchwerk fight to help people feel comfortable in the execution of their own rotations. MoP doesn't feel "right" to me, it's just been a collection of mediocre encounters, repeating mechanics, and frustrating movement that isn't fun. Movement on Archimonde, for example, was crucial-- you had to react to the mechanics of the fight and that often meant not casting-- but it wasn't constant. If fire wasn't chasing you or you weren't a mile in the sky, you were doing your rotation and bringing his HP down. On Illidan there was most certainly movement, but the mechanics were such that you had to know when to target switch, how to back off DPS so you didn't mess up a phase transition, and pay attention to threat generation-- the fight was an endurance check without making you feel punished for wanting to finish casting a spell. In MoP, since the very first fight, Stone Guardians, I've felt punished for casting. The pressure is on the DPS to make all these checks, even in normal mode, because you are always carrying some people who do less. This means you train those raiders to just master the mechanics so wipes don't occur, but then it's on your shoulders as the more competent player to do those mechanics, stay alive, and do enough DPS to justify your spot + the deficit of others. As someone who can't move and cast, this means any time:
    • tiles need to be run,
    • the fire debuff needs to be moved away from the raid,
    • someone needs to go into the spirit realm,
    • a wall of mogu are chopping away at you,
    • an immuner needs to jump out,
    • sparks need to be kited,
    • attenuation (yellow and green) happens,
    • wind step/tornadoes,
    • pheromones have to be traded,
    • CC needs to be refreshed while wind bombs are going out,
    • you get turned into a construct or have living amber on you,
    • you have to go deactivate a sound dampening thing,
    • lightning alternates blowing up at various ranges,
    • you have to clear a darkness debuff,
    • GET AWAY,
    • you have to kill adds that are out of LoS unless you leave a safe zone,
    • you have to dodge balls of lightning and get out of pools,
    • you follow a giant dinosaur around a huge room,
    • you get repeatedly knocked back by a dumb troll,
    • HAHA TORTOS,
    • you are running cinders or ice torrents constantly,
    • GET AWAY V2.0,
    • an eye beam is chasing you and puddles land under your feet,
    • the cleaving boss is being moved in a circle around you,
    • [dark animus is the only good encounter on heroic],
    • constant stacking and spreading along with LoS shields,
    • knockback waves and sleep clouds,
    • GET AWAY V3.0
    Then any of those encounters where you get brief periods of being able to actually stand and cast something, some asshole hunter, shaman, or lock is getting in your range checker (usually a fatass panda), bouncing back and forth making you angry.

    Because that's all MoP is, a frustrating expansion of having to do far too many things while encounters are alternating range checkers and movement.

    And to those who think 5.4 will be better, I have one word for you: Immersius

  3. #263
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    ToT made me quit heroic raiding. I see a lot of 3d/week guilds (who typically raid 9 to 12 hours a week) who dropped a massive amount of ranks during ToT, with nearly the same roster as before. On the other hand I see a lot of guilds who used to be way lower in ranks, but who would raid 4d+ a week / much longer sessions - and who climbed the ranks. The reason I see is that the big raids combined with tons of trash takes too much time to reclear, and definitely in 10m where its harder to get an optimal loot distribution, you need those clears on hc to progress. And the longer your reclears last (since you kill more hc bosses), the longer wipe time you typically need for the next bosses, as they get harder and harder. Most of these guilds have been non stop progress raiding since september, and it eventually makes a lot of players tired.

    Cata was for me the ideal raid expansion: massive opening raid (combined) with challenging bosses at the start of an expansion. Firelands which was a short instances with interesting bosses and a massive challenging end boss, some time off till DS, and then another short instance, with a challenging spine prior to the nerf. And plenty of time off till next tier (a bit too long). So a big opening raid is fine for an expansion, but follow that up with a raid that is as big, and then again ... that's too much imo for those guilds with a relaxed schedule, but who clear all HC bosses prior to nerfs (3d/week guilds). That is as far as raiding goes.

    What puts me off the most is the crazy trinkets and legendary items. Everyone can have the legendary items, and thus everyone is forced to keep up. There is no real way to take a break / reroll. The crazy trinkets create such a difference between the haves and have nots, that it kinda determines if you do good dps or not. Which brings me to the rppm system: this is for my spec (ele shaman) the biggest bullshit ever, it turns trinkets into a complete passive experience. Of course it's lots of fun on my lock. But the difference between a good and a bad ele shaman has never been so smaal to my experience.

    So no, I absolutely don't share the sentiment of MoP being the best PVE expansion. Too much, too long, too crazy.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    ToT made me quit heroic raiding. I see a lot of 3d/week guilds (who typically raid 9 to 12 hours a week) who dropped a massive amount of ranks during ToT, with nearly the same roster as before. On the other hand I see a lot of guilds who used to be way lower in ranks, but who would raid 4d+ a week / much longer sessions - and who climbed the ranks. The reason I see is that the big raids combined with tons of trash takes too much time to reclear, and definitely in 10m where its harder to get an optimal loot distribution, you need those clears on hc to progress. And the longer your reclears last (since you kill more hc bosses), the longer wipe time you typically need for the next bosses, as they get harder and harder. Most of these guilds have been non stop progress raiding since september, and it eventually makes a lot of players tired.

    Cata was for me the ideal raid expansion: massive opening raid (combined) with challenging bosses at the start of an expansion. Firelands which was a short instances with interesting bosses and a massive challenging end boss, some time off till DS, and then another short instance, with a challenging spine prior to the nerf. And plenty of time off till next tier (a bit too long). So a big opening raid is fine for an expansion, but follow that up with a raid that is as big, and then again ... that's too much imo for those guilds with a relaxed schedule, but who clear all HC bosses prior to nerfs (3d/week guilds). That is as far as raiding goes.
    Meh I like big tiers. It separates the guilds that can rekill things quickly without wasting wipes on stupid things like blowing up Ionization. Think of it this way: the better and more focused you play during progress determines how long your break between tiers is. If you choose to waste time wiping to farm bosses, that time gets taken out of your end of tier break time.

  5. #265
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Meh I like big tiers. It separates the guilds that can rekill things quickly without wasting wipes on stupid things like blowing up Ionization. Think of it this way: the better and more focused you play during progress determines how long your break between tiers is. If you choose to waste time wiping to farm bosses, that time gets taken out of your end of tier break time.
    The point I'm making is that guilds who raid 9h-12h a week (3d/week) spend now a much bigger time of their total raid time on reclearing bosses, and have thus less time for progress. Provided they have the same amount of raid time and the same efficiency/speed of clearing. It's pretty basic math: if you would need 2 hours to get to rag hc, you were left with 7h of progress. If you need 4h to get to lei shen hc, you are left with 5h of progress (using random numbers). The only way to make up for that is by adding extra raid time, if not the progression is just much longer than for guilds that raid way more (and may play worse).

    I'm not saying they should fix it, or that it's unfair. I'm stating it as a reason why I dislike the current tiers.

  6. #266
    In terms of content, gameplay, variety, storytelling etc? I think there's no question that in game terms WoW is better than it has ever been.

    In terms of story, "feel" etc? Entirely subjective. I'd say Wrath probably wins on that, for me. Hard to compete when Wrath had all the set-up of Warcraft III behind it. But considering it is 100% new lore, MoP was a great effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    What puts me off the most is the crazy trinkets and legendary items. Everyone can have the legendary items, and thus everyone is forced to keep up. There is no real way to take a break / reroll. The crazy trinkets create such a difference between the haves and have nots, that it kinda determines if you do good dps or not. Which brings me to the rppm system: this is for my spec (ele shaman) the biggest bullshit ever, it turns trinkets into a complete passive experience. Of course it's lots of fun on my lock. But the difference between a good and a bad ele shaman has never been so smaal to my experience.
    Well trinkets are the same as always, except you can get the LFR equivalents on your alts now without even raiding, which you couldn't do in previous expansions.

    Also, they don't really want you to be able to catch up on the legendary immediately on your alts, but the early stages have been nerfed considerably (seriously go try them, you can do up to ToT in like 3-4 weeks) and the rest gets nerfed next patch. It will take time but you will be able to catch up a lot faster than it took you initially.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Bad itemization.
    Sup bra.

    I killed Vashj the other day and she dropped this.

    Wooo bring back TBC itemisation amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  7. #267
    I like MoP, but definetly not the best one.

  8. #268
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    In terms of content, gameplay, variety, storytelling etc? I think there's no question that in game terms WoW is better than it has ever been.
    I love it when people make such definitive statements even in view of a thread FILLED with people who disagree. Yes yes mists is the best expansion and the ice bergs aren't melting and my grandmother saw elvis not 3 days ago.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I love it when people make such definitive statements even in view of a thread FILLED with people who disagree. Yes yes mists is the best expansion and the ice bergs aren't melting and my grandmother saw elvis not 3 days ago.
    So if a thread is so filled with nothing but people who disagree, that must mean their opinions are correct and those who feel differently are wrong? It's not a 'definitive statement', it was their opinion and you call it otherwise because it doesn't agree with yours and the rest of the people who, apparently, fill this thread.

  10. #270
    I have only raided normal modes and a few heroic bosses this expansion so its hard to say how good raiding is.
    I love challenge mode, I like brawlers guid, Proving grounds was semi fun on PTR, Heroic Scenario is semi fun. Heroic instances was too easy from the start and have not been fun at all.
    I think all other expansions have been better for me Raid wise but outside of raids i think this expansion is the greatest.

  11. #271
    Mop can not come close to being the best while it doesn't offer new 5 mans in any of the content patches.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Angella View Post
    In Order:

    TBC
    Wrath
    MoP
    Vanilla
    Cata

    If you disagree you're obviously corrupted... like in most WoW lore.
    "MY OPINION IS RIGHT!!!"

    Personally my list would be different (MoP, Wrath, Cata, TBC, Vanilla), but it's all opinions, right? I don't expect many to agree, and I'm not going to be insulted if they don't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Mop can not come close to being the best while it doesn't offer new 5 mans in any of the content patches.
    Personally vastly prefer MoP's 5 mans over Cata's dungeons released after the initial ones. It could have been handled better, but the Cata version (and the WoLK version) of 5 mans was worse than MoP's, seeing as you practically had to do the new ones (ZG and ZA over and over) because of the loot.
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  13. #273
    No WOLTK is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than MOP by miles its not even close, cata was better than MOP and thats saying something.

  14. #274
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Wrath
    MoP
    TBC
    Vanilla
    Cata

    That's my opinion. TBC was a strange transition for the game. I mean, when Arenas came out, I got Duelist in 2v2, as a 14 year old Resto Shaman paired up with an Elemental Shaman. The game was far from balanced.

    Absolutely loved Wrath/MoP.
    Cata was dire.
    Vanilla was about as exciting as it can get for a 10/11 year old gaming.

  15. #275
    nah, wrath is still my fav. icc, ulduar and naxx were all pretty awesome (i thought anyway). i like MOP raiding, but i really hated HoF. all the others have been decent for me though

  16. #276
    Mechagnome Pum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragu4 View Post
    Wrath was my favorite PvE expansion only cause my friends played the game, and anything is more fun when your friends play the game as well. And am I the only person in WoW that liked ToC? No trash, 5 quick fights, and also for me, our guild was server first for heroic beasts. I still have the mail shoulders I used on my paladin, which was also when you weren't locked into only wearing only one armor type, which i think its stupid. This game should be about choice, and the game worked fine when you could wear off gear pieces as a sub until you got your main piece. So yeah, guess I'm an outlier haha.
    I actually enjoyed ToC as well, and Anub ToGC 25 was one of the most difficult fights I've ever had to heal. Though the implementation of the +5% buff for your designated armour type was such a blessing.. Having more than half the classes eligible for the same bit of loot was bad design, especially if you were a Paladin and could pretty much roll on everything a Mage/Lock/Priest/Shaman/Druids wanted, and still be uncontested for plate gear with intellect.
    Quote Originally Posted by tweekzlol View Post
    but then again, The Coon is obviously unbeatable as he will just manipulate you into being his friend

  17. #277
    Mechagnome SkyBlueAri's Avatar
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    Anyone who says MoP PVE is the best is wrong. Ulduar is the best pve instance in the game to date. Firelands was also quite fun, lots of quests/dailies + legendary made this fire-themed content some of blizzards best work. But TBC redefined pve content. The rep grinds and quests in that place were phenomenal. The 5 mans were really well designed, I still remember people not wanting to do some of the instances because of how difficult they were. The raiding was awesome. From single and double boss instances. The storyline of the Black Citadel was also by-far the best we've ever seen.
    "There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs." - George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Bad pure class balance (except warlocks). LOL. You pick the one class that has been consistently overpowered at every aspect of the game this expansion as your point for where classes should be balanced? WTF
    I'd like to fill you in on this; Akraen is known for being one of the primary whiners when it comes to Mage balance. He sees that Warlocks have it better than Mages in one aspect and thinks Mages are shit because of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBlueAri View Post
    Anyone who says MoP PVE is the best is wrong. Ulduar is the best pve instance in the game to date. Firelands was also quite fun, lots of quests/dailies + legendary made this fire-themed content some of blizzards best work. But TBC redefined pve content. The rep grinds and quests in that place were phenomenal. The 5 mans were really well designed, I still remember people not wanting to do some of the instances because of how difficult they were. The raiding was awesome. From single and double boss instances. The storyline of the Black Citadel was also by-far the best we've ever seen.
    I'm sorry, I thought opinions were subjective.

    As for the second bolded part, do you really believe it was a good thing that people didn't want to do the heroics? Is this a special snowflake argument?
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Yes really. Warlocks were stacked like crazy in Black Temple and Sunwell, as were Resto Shaman specifically.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you're blaming your lack of time for the expansion's quality?

    Uh... okay?
    Did you actually read what I said?

  20. #280
    Keyboard Turner MoonLightAngel's Avatar
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    in my opinion its an ok expansion we get a new class and race but the raids are fine their very well done blizzard put a lot of work into them my fav expansion is bc only cause that's when I first started playing this game when bc first came out but pandaria will never compare to the the other expanions but each has their goodness so I wouldn't say pve is bad in pandaria we get content fast.

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