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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why wouldn't it be credible?
    DO you think it likely Blizzard would allow the creation of a unit which duplicates the look and feel of a planned class? Theer was a reason Blizzard came down hard on player who managed to tame Worgen.

    It's important to keep in mind that nothing you mentioned here is a Tinker ability, because none of the Tinker abilities exist in WoW.
    Its important to keep in mind that the abilities I did mention are abilities that a Tinker can be expected to have. No, we don't know wht abiltiies the class would have....but if we rule out the abiltiies that ENgineers get, it quickly becomes a very small list.

    I dismissed the DH because there were DH abilities being used by other CLASSES via class abilities. So your comparison here makes no sense.
    Only because you draw distinctions where none exist. Why should it matter if an ability is class or profession based if they both sue the tech them and gfiev the same look/feel/whatever.

    Yes. You can argue that profession based abilities aren't quite as critical/improtanta s class absed ones.

    But they still exist.

    A magic-based caster class using Frost, Fire, and Arcane magic wouldn't dilute the Mage class that also uses Frost, Fire, and Arcane magic?
    See, you aren't even making an effort to see how Dragonsworn could fit. For one thing...who said it had to be a caster class. For another, other classes also have abilities that are arcane or frost or fire based and do so without diluting themes. You are simply dismissing the concept out of hand simply to avoid confronting the fact that Tinkers are not an inevitable addition.

    You don't like the Dragonsworn concept? Fine. How about the Bard? A class based the manipulation of sound and music. Much like the Mantid. Or perhaps flesh out the Blood Mage concept into a class who works based upon the manipulation of life energies.

    "Tech" is not the only theme that is available shouid Blizzard wish to use it.

    You do understand that the Brewmaster hero unit, and the legend of Pandaria lore that came with said Hero unit, came WAY before WoW was even conceived don't you? Also the Monk class kind of has ALL of the Brewmaster's abilities.
    You are aware that the Monk class concept and its association with the East predates WoW? Or even Warcraft? Have you not noticed that the Brewmaster is not very Monklike in theme or concept?

    Regardless - your assertion that tinkers are the only possible choice and are inevitable is wrong.

    EJL

  2. #222
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    DO you think it likely Blizzard would allow the creation of a unit which duplicates the look and feel of a planned class? Theer was a reason Blizzard came down hard on player who managed to tame Worgen.
    No I don't, which is why I don't believe that a Tinker class would be piloting a bunch of steam mechs that resemble Sky Golems, or other mechs.

    Its important to keep in mind that the abilities I did mention are abilities that a Tinker can be expected to have. No, we don't know wht abiltiies the class would have....but if we rule out the abiltiies that ENgineers get, it quickly becomes a very small list.
    You mean the abilities attached to trinkets right? Abilities that quickly become useless once you continue to level? You could exclude all of those abilities and you could still create a very robust Tinker class out of it.

    Only because you draw distinctions where none exist. Why should it matter if an ability is class or profession based if they both sue the tech them and gfiev the same look/feel/whatever.
    Because a class ability doesn't go obsolete once you reach a certain level. A class ability doesn't have to be crafted. A class ability doesn't take up an armor spot. A class ability can be put up in an auction house. A class ability helps you perform a role.

    Yes. You can argue that profession based abilities aren't quite as critical/improtanta s class absed ones.

    But they still exist.
    So does first aid. Should a guild fire all of its healers because a couple of Warriors have maxed out the first aid profession? If your answer is no, then that eliminates your entire argument here.

    See, you aren't even making an effort to see how Dragonsworn could fit. For one thing...who said it had to be a caster class. For another, other classes also have abilities that are arcane or frost or fire based and do so without diluting themes. You are simply dismissing the concept out of hand simply to avoid confronting the fact that Tinkers are not an inevitable addition.
    Well its hard taking such an idea seriously when it doesn't make any sense. Again, the Green and Blue Dragonflight are already connected to two existing classes. The black dragon flight has no Dragonsworn. The Bronze is Time-based, and the Red is fire based. I suppose you could structure a class that uses fire melee, but then that clashes with Enhancement Shaman. I couldn't even begin to fathom how you would structure a time-based melee spec.

    Then comes the other thing where lore sort of doesn't make sense. How would one person become the Dragonsworn of multiple dragonflights? That's sort of impossible. There's also a lack of unique abilities, lack of history of any type of Dragonsworn unit or hero from WC3, the closeness of the specs to Mage specs, among other problems.


    You don't like the Dragonsworn concept? Fine. How about the Bard? A class based the manipulation of sound and music. Much like the Mantid. Or perhaps flesh out the Blood Mage concept into a class who works based upon the manipulation of life energies. "Tech" is not the only theme that is available shouid Blizzard wish to use it.
    There's no basis for a Bard in the Warcraft universe. I've never seen a Bard unit, or witnessed a Bard fighting anything in any Warcraft game.

    That Blood Mage concept sounds just like Warlocks who also manipulate life energies.

    Tech not only has the WC3 hero and units backing it, but it has numerous NPCs and bosses, it has a faction leader using it, its has two races on opposite factions utilizing it, and its unlike other class theme in the game.

    You are aware that the Monk class concept and its association with the East predates WoW? Or even Warcraft? Have you not noticed that the Brewmaster is not very Monklike in theme or concept?
    You mean other than the fact that the Brewmaster is based on Drunken Kung Fu (Zi Quan)?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan

    Or the fact that Chen Stormstout is a Panda which is a Chinese animal that just happened to be wearing the garb of a Chinese martial artist/Monk?

    Regardless - your assertion that tinkers are the only possible choice and are inevitable is wrong.

    EJL
    Again, only if you ignore the evidence.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In short, if you can find another class concept that had a corresponding WC3 hero, can wear mail armor, can use ranged weapons, can heal/tank/DPS, can be played by all or most races, is unlike any other class currently in the game, and has no WC3 abilities that would overlap with any of the existing classes, I'm all ears.
    Are you sure that the Tinkerer covers all of that?

  4. #224
    Honestly, I heard whispers of the Emerald Dream becoming a thing and it has gotten me back to these boards.

    As far as retconning for the other classes to be able to enter the dream.... Ysera is still alive and kicking, and could easily be the tool used to bring non-druids to the dream. Remulos ports non-druids into the dream in WotLK for a quest. Getting non-druids there isn't an issue. It has literally already been done in the lore. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Hope_Wi...rald_Nightmare)

    Pretty much returning to good lore would spark my interest. They definitely improved gameplay in pandaria, but the setting made me lose interest very quickly. I was only subbed for a couple months before unsubbing again.

    tl;dr Emerald Dream or Burning Legion.

  5. #225
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Are you sure that the Tinkerer covers all of that?
    Yes. If you question any of that, just let me know.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endre View Post
    Next will probably be Burning Legion, there are so many things that point to it, also Metzen hinted we will need the help from Alleria and Turalyon after MoP and he wasn't sure if they'll show up in MoP or not, meaning they had Burning Legion themed expansion planned to be the next after MoP and weren't sure if they'll bring us a patch with them before the expansion hits or when it hits. He was also asked about Sargeras and he said we won't be seeing, as in fighting him soon. So what do we get from here?

    They say Alleria and Turalyon will be back in the next expansion and on top of that no Sargeras yet planned. Which means it's not going to be the last Burning Legion expansion, but are planning at least two Burning Legion expansions if not more in the future. That's why I'm so sure it's going to be Nathrezim leading the offensive from Xoroth. Burning Legion yes, but Nathrezim domain not Sargeras.

    Just listen to him and you'll see what I mean. It's at 2:11:10, just so you don't have to check the whole show. Also listen to the bit about Sargeras at 2:14:20.

    I used to say it'd be the Legion, and that it'd be a 10-level expansion.

    But since then I've read the recent GC interviews. About how they're planning long-term, about how they want to do shorter cycles, about how they like the naga stuff, and even how they are totally non-commital to a new class right now.

    And I just can't think they'll do a 10 level expansion anymore. I also know they'll add Demon Hunter, and do a Legion expansion for level 100.

    And that leaves Azshara to be next by process of elimination.
    Permanently unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    Been a fun run guys, but the game's officially moved into the "Milk the Playerbase" phase. And I for one don't intend to stick around as the cost of expansions go up, content in them goes down, and raids become further and further apart.
    Maybe I'll be back for WoW2, but probably not. - Slowpoke, the former Dokhidamo

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosencrantz View Post
    Honestly, I heard whispers of the Emerald Dream becoming a thing and it has gotten me back to these boards.

    As far as retconning for the other classes to be able to enter the dream.... Ysera is still alive and kicking, and could easily be the tool used to bring non-druids to the dream. Remulos ports non-druids into the dream in WotLK for a quest. Getting non-druids there isn't an issue. It has literally already been done in the lore. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Hope_Wi...rald_Nightmare)

    Pretty much returning to good lore would spark my interest. They definitely improved gameplay in pandaria, but the setting made me lose interest very quickly. I was only subbed for a couple months before unsubbing again.

    tl;dr Emerald Dream or Burning Legion.
    Or...you know, people could walk through the gigantic Emerald Dream portals all over Azeroth. Getting in has never been the problem.

    All my hopes and dreams, no pun intended, are for the ED expansion. It's abouttttt tiiiime.....
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  8. #228
    Scarab Lord -Zait-'s Avatar
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    I would love a Burning Legion xpac again. Like what they did with Cataclysm with Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor but with Outland. With Demon Hunter hero class <3

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes. If you question any of that, just let me know.
    I think the problem is having 3 unique and interesting specs that share a common look and feel while being functionally different enough to be interesting.
    Death Knight is a good example they feel similar enough to be the same class yet different enough to be interesting.

    Clockwork seems interesting, also this feels like what I think of when I hear "Tinker".
    Chemical doesn't feel very interesting nor does it feel very "tinkery", it feels like a tacked on healing spec just to have a healing spec.
    Gunnery looks like a hunter spec. It also doesn't feel very "tinkery".

    The whole reason for having it ranged I would think is to get more use from ranged weapons used solely by hunters. This means you probably want all 3 specs to be based on agility. Also dual wield pistols sounds super cool, but that means a new weapon to be used solely by the tinker which is the very same problem we are trying to address for the hunter. Dual wield 2H rifles and bows just seems silly.

    Honestly, it has some good ideas but no more so than any other class ideas I have heard. And it still needs 3 specs that share a common vision but are different enough to be interesting.

  10. #230
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    I think the problem is having 3 unique and interesting specs that share a common look and feel while being functionally different enough to be interesting.
    Death Knight is a good example they feel similar enough to be the same class yet different enough to be interesting.
    It's important to note that the Death Knight specs were pulled from multiple undead heroes and units. Frost comes from the Lich. Blood comes from the Dreadlord's Vampiric aura, and Unholy was based on the DK hero and the Necromancer.

    You can thank Blizzard's awesome design team for making it all appear seamless. They did an amazing job on the Monk class as well.

    Honestly, it has some good ideas but no more so than any other class ideas I have heard. And it still needs 3 specs that share a common vision but are different enough to be interesting.
    You can't base the Tinkers' viability as a full hybrid based on my weak effort. The Tinker can tank based on robotics, it can heal based on medical technology, and it can do DPS via advanced weaponry. Simple, and it doesn't overlap with any existing classes. Like the DK, Blizzard can merge multiple WC3 units and heroes together. In this case you have the Tinker hero, the Alchemist hero, Seige tank, Mortar Team, and the gyro copter. The archetype is extremely broad, so Blizzard has plenty to work with.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's important to note that the Death Knight specs were pulled from multiple undead heroes and units. Frost comes from the Lich. Blood comes from the Dreadlord's Vampiric aura, and Unholy was based on the DK hero and the Necromancer.

    You can thank Blizzard's awesome design team for making it all appear seamless. They did an amazing job on the Monk class as well.



    You can't base the Tinkers' viability as a full hybrid based on my weak effort. The Tinker can tank based on robotics, it can heal based on medical technology, and it can do DPS via advanced weaponry. Simple, and it doesn't overlap with any existing classes. Like the DK, Blizzard can merge multiple WC3 units and heroes together. In this case you have the Tinker hero, the Alchemist hero, Seige tank, Mortar Team, and the gyro copter. The archetype is extremely broad, so Blizzard has plenty to work with.
    Actually I applaud your effort, but I think the problem is that it is so broad. I am sure they could come up with something to make it work, but then I again I think that holds true for any of the numerous other hero classes people have thought up. I would hope that if they did do a tinker they would focus on the machinist aspect of it as I think it best defines the class, but while they do that they still have to make 3 different specs that are interesting.

  12. #232
    Teriz the way i see it, most importantly. Something like a demon hunter class, is going to bring in subs. A tinker probably wont. Demon hunters have fanboys. And all of the tinker wannabes are you and your idiot following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  13. #233
    Hey, I'm with Tinker but I felt that way long before I even read mmo-champion forum, just because someone made a thread about it doesn't mean you should group everyone who likes as followers. There's been threads on Tinkers long before that and people shouldn't resort to name calling just because others want something different than you do.

  14. #234
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Actually I applaud your effort, but I think the problem is that it is so broad. I am sure they could come up with something to make it work, but then I again I think that holds true for any of the numerous other hero classes people have thought up. I would hope that if they did do a tinker they would focus on the machinist aspect of it as I think it best defines the class, but while they do that they still have to make 3 different specs that are interesting.
    You want something broad. That gives you flexibility when it comes to class creation. I'm sure that however they do it, it will have a consistent theme, with some very interesting abilities.

    I also disagree that it holds true for other class concepts are equal. Other class concepts either horrendously overlap with existing classes, or have no connection to the Warcraft universe. Tinkers are simply the best remaining option in terms of possible WoW classes.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well its hard taking such an idea seriously when it doesn't make any sense.
    Easy to say. Face it....the only reason against a Dragon themed class is that you don't want one. Your tinker class has overlaps. Or should we do away with the lightning generators and flame throwers and lasers?

    Tech based is not the only theme left unexplored or unused in this game.

    Then comes the other thing where lore sort of doesn't make sense. How would one person become the Dragonsworn of multiple dragonflights? That's sort of impossible.
    So is the idea of spec swapping. And really - you can't think of possible stories/lore whereby a Dragonsworn style character may have access to mutliple schools?

    I can. He just does because he is Dragonsworn.

    There's also a lack of unique abilities, lack of history of any type of Dragonsworn unit or hero from WC3, the closeness of the specs to Mage specs, among other problems.
    Really reaching. Unique abilities? Seriously? Really? You say a class that hasn't been developed yet doesn't have any unique abilities and so it can't be implemented? WoW....this idea of a Dragon themed class has thrown you off your game. No unit or hero from WC3? Well....that'd be OK because we don't have to fill your own personal assumption that new classes must fill that criteria. Its useful to have as it creates back story and ties to previous games but hardly essential. The closeness to Mage specs? So we should just rule out Warlocks and other casters ever again?

    Seriously - you are nitpicking without even trying to see how you could design a Dragon themed class.

    There's no basis for a Bard in the Warcraft universe. I've never seen a Bard unit, or witnessed a Bard fighting anything in any Warcraft game.
    The you haven't done the Twilight Highlands Wedding quests. And so what iof you haven't seen one? Why does everything have to come down to what was in previous games? Does Blizzard not have the option of adding something new?


    That Blood Mage concept sounds just like Warlocks who also manipulate life energies.
    Last I checked, Warlocks had a Demon theme and used Shadow and Fire magic.

    Tech not only has the WC3 hero and units backing it, but it has numerous NPCs and bosses, it has a faction leader using it, its has two races on opposite factions utilizing it, and its unlike other class theme in the game.
    None of which makes the tinker inevitable.

    Again, only if you ignore the evidence.
    So...you are going to state that there is no chance, not even the smallest possibility, that Blizzard might even consider adding a different class other than Tinkers? That there is no choice, and they have no option but to follow your rules and add the tinker. They won't even have the option of adding in WC3 hero unit such as the Warden or Sea Witch, or exploring new possibilities such as the Bard?

    Blizzard, the creators of the game, the people who say what goes in and what does not, have no choice other than to add in Tinkers and all other options are of the table because you can't think of a way in which they can be added.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-29 at 05:29 AM.

  16. #236
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    Teriz the way i see it, most importantly. Something like a demon hunter class, is going to bring in subs. A tinker probably wont. Demon hunters have fanboys. And all of the tinker wannabes are you and your idiot following.
    Technology-based classes are traditionally popular in RPGs. Don't underestimate their drawing power, or staying power. Some people enjoy playing machine-based classes in fantasy games.

  17. #237
    Yes yes, entirely possible we'll be fighting the Legion again. Maybe playable Demon Hunters. Personally I'd prefer the next expansion didn't have a new class though - we just got a new one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Hey everyone, we all know that Blizzard lost a lot of subscriptions, so let's talk what would bring back(or even new) players?
    Long term? Nothing. Game is old. By now most people who were going to play it have, and a lot have played it long enough to burn themselves out or just get sick of it. No game lasts forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desareon View Post
    Why does everyone want this "South Seas" xpac? What so special about it? I thought that was where the Goblin starting area is.
    Because it's the only area of the map not coloured in yet. So people assume it has to be an expansion.

    Truth is, we've already been almost everywhere in Warcraft lore, and we've already fought almost everyone in Warcraft lore. Bottom of the barrel scraping unless they come up with something new. Which is something nobody on the forums could predict, of course.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zait- View Post
    I would love a Burning Legion xpac again. Like what they did with Cataclysm with Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor but with Outland. With Demon Hunter hero class <3
    Even if we do fight the Legion again, that doesn't mean going back to Outland. The portals there are closed just like Azeroth's. In fact they have been since TFT.

    Also, Outland doesn't need a revamp. Maybe some of the quests could be streamlined.
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  18. #238
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You want something broad. That gives you flexibility when it comes to class creation. I'm sure that however they do it, it will have a consistent theme, with some very interesting abilities.

    I also disagree that it holds true for other class concepts are equal. Other class concepts either horrendously overlap with existing classes, or have no connection to the Warcraft universe. Tinkers are simply the best remaining option in terms of possible WoW classes.
    It fails on one key point. It lacks support.

    The Anti-DH coalition as a whole is in the minority. And within itself it's split into multiple smaller camps.

    There is no way in the current era of sub freefall that Blizz would skip the majority-desired class in favor of a niche in the minority.
    Permanently unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    Been a fun run guys, but the game's officially moved into the "Milk the Playerbase" phase. And I for one don't intend to stick around as the cost of expansions go up, content in them goes down, and raids become further and further apart.
    Maybe I'll be back for WoW2, but probably not. - Slowpoke, the former Dokhidamo

  19. #239
    id love to actually see a "pvp-centric x-pan" done right.

  20. #240
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    It fails on one key point. It lacks support.

    The Anti-DH coalition as a whole is in the minority. And within itself it's split into multiple smaller camps.

    There is no way in the current era of sub freefall that Blizz would skip the majority-desired class in favor of a niche in the minority.
    Blizzard designs this sort of thing far in advance. The next expansion and all of its features were mapped out way before the sub numbers fell.

    Also there's no concrete data that Demon Hunters are "majority-desired".

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