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  1. #221
    Warchief Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    -The healing has changed. Drastically. I don't know exactly what it is, I can't explain it either, but I do not enjoy healing as I used to do the past versions, hell, even cata healing I enjoyed more than currently in this expansion. I guess it boils down to too much (active) mitigations (absorbtions) and too much passives (smart heals). There is barely any active healing involved, where you see HP go up, as opposed to Vanilla, BC and Wrath (Cata to a lesser extent, but it was still there).

    That is also why I do not like the current expansion, the healing is so drastically different and I find it hard to cooperate with it. I don't like it. Also, healing community turned into HPS meter whores, at least half of it, which is definetly what I did not signed up for when I started playing. Meters is for DPS, keeping those meters alive is what healers are for.
    I completely agree with you on this. I loved playing Disc during Cataclysm, probably the most fun I've had healing ever and I've been healing since Karazhan on my holy paladin. Even though Disc has been really strong this whole xpac I feel the same way about healing as you do. Can't really narrow it down to one thing but its just not fun anymore, not like it use to be. Its gotten really really boring, even on my resto shaman which was my favorite PvP class.

  2. #222
    Honestly I'd like so see a return of the tabard system. Maybe they implement it kinda like they did in MoP where let's say you need to get exalted with the rep on one character before you unlock a BoA tabard. Also LFR killed the incentive to raid for allot of people, it's actually hurting the game allot more then it's helping it no matter how many people use LFR, but Blizzard will ignore this since they see a ton of people using the system they think it's doing well. Now we'll have LFR, Hardmode LFR, normals and heroics all with the same gear. Sure the ilvl is different but that's quite meaningless. I just think having an exclusive game is much better then having a completely inclusive afk / drool on keyboard and still get loot game. But even with its major flaws, and its series of loot piñatas, I'll still keep playing because I've found a good group of people to raid casually with. I think for allot of people the biggest reason they keep playing is the people they play with.

  3. #223
    The fact that so many (cough) are looking back at Cataclysms valor system/dungeons is a bit funny. Especially considering those were bashed to no end on these very forums.
    Ya, how we loved 4.3, when you needed to have 5 alts to keep yourself reasonably occupied. When you went from the 4.0 dungeon batch, down to a mere two (ZA, ZG), and then Roleplay Forever Hour of Twilight for like a year. I am SO glad they didn't fall back to the same shit, adding "more" dungeons that ultimately reduces the size of the pool of dungeons you do.
    And even the Tabard system that made factions into faceless, storyless item-vending helm-enchant machines. Some would even want that back.

    What didn't work?
    Alts in 5.0. Ever since gearing alts has become easier and easier. No, I can't boost my new 90 to full LFR BiS (*giggle*) in 4 days, but atleast it's keeping me occupied for a number of weeks.

    Dailies and factions. Or rather, it's apparent that there was a need for something to explicitly tell the play that they didn't need to do dailies every day, because of the valor cap.
    But somehow there was a giant mob of people who thought they'd be left in the dust if they didn't. Reasonable people kept it to perhaps 2 rounds of dailies per week and still had no issues spending valor. Funny how that worked.

    Re-doing factions, now at this point 5.0 faction items are pretty much useless anyway, but to be fair, the 100% bonus weren't enough. An alt shouldn't have to go through the story again, the waiting. This was an actual issue and if they are planning to go with a similar design again they better have a standard that after reaching exalted once, all alts start at Honored, or halfway to Revered. "Reputation by Association" Yay!
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  4. #224
    I think continuing to render casual guilds irrelevant was a huge mistake. Go hardcore or go solo, that's the philosophy of this expansion.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  5. #225
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    The fact that so many (cough) are looking back at Cataclysms valor system/dungeons is a bit funny. Especially considering those were bashed to no end on these very forums.
    Ya, how we loved 4.3, when you needed to have 5 alts to keep yourself reasonably occupied. When you went from the 4.0 dungeon batch, down to a mere two (ZA, ZG), and then Roleplay Forever Hour of Twilight for like a year. I am SO glad they didn't fall back to the same shit, adding "more" dungeons that ultimately reduces the size of the pool of dungeons you do.
    And even the Tabard system that made factions into faceless, storyless item-vending helm-enchant machines. Some would even want that back.
    While the feedback given out was certainly concentrated it was apparently not universal. The system in 4.3 was far better even if meant you (and by you I mean the guy who plays 15+ hours) had 4 or 5 alts to keep occupied. While YOU (again that same group) may be glad they didn't it go back to that old system it came at the cost of lots of players who walked away from the game when it stopped rewarding them and when their 2-3 hours a week wasn't rewarding them as much as it was before.

    Tabards were a good thing. Instant catch-up and new dungeons was a good thing. In fact virtually all of the casual friendly systems in cataclysm were a GOOD THING except for a small but apparently vocal minority of players who play one guy and want to spend like 20-30 hours a week on that one guy. If that means that guy is put out well to bad. It's a far better business decision and IMHO a far better game design decision to put that guy out and offer the variety that comes with playing lots of alts.

    Mists is a colossal failure and it was all centered around giving YOU (once again that same group) something to do when for the most part it wasn't necessary. Most of those players who play more than 20-30 hours are so hopelessly addicted they'd just do the content on alts and be satisfied with it.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-27 at 09:42 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #226
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    Never felt compelled to come to the internet to bitich about Cataclysm. It wasn't perfect but at least it was WoW. MOP doesn't even feel like wow.

  7. #227
    I actually want to say that all those things that were cited as reasons for the decline in Cataclysm were completely wrong because ALL of them were addressed and the sub loss continued.

    It wasn't the slow content updates because WotLK saw the highest sub numbers in the history of this game NINE MONTHS into a patch. It might have been hard heroics though I think that might be debatable. Despite the forum outcry people still continued doing them. It wasn't because raids were bad because t11 is hailed as one of the greatest tiers in the history of this game. It wasn't that there wasn't enough to do because leveling alts in Cataclysm was more active than even in WotLK.

    I think the main problem was that Blizzard got players used to a certain playstyle: that being jumping into the game, getting your shit done asap and being done with it until the next content patch...and even coming back was a maybe unless it's the final patch of the expansion. Between easier/useless heroics, replacement of heroics with scenarios, LFR, absolutely terrible PvP, Blizzard has catered to the worst possible playstyle for maintaining/gaining subscriptions. You can't shoehorn players into a million dailies when the time-sink USED to be leveling alts. You can't gate gear behind things when the precedent was being able to gear up to the current tier via heroic dungeons.

    Instead of making things that worked better, they completely scrapped them and/or went to OLDER ways of doing things that they'd already moved away from.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-07-27 at 09:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I actually want to say that all those things that were cited as reasons for the decline in Cataclysm were completely wrong because ALL of them were addressed and the sub loss continued.
    Casual guilds were given raid content? Um, not yet.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  9. #229
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Blizzard has catered to the worst possible playstyle for maintaining/gaining subscriptions.
    Which is of course what they tried to address in Mists. Well it didn't work. People still unsub and sub around patches and the cost of all of this is that casuals aren't engaged.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #230
    I like how this thread is already 12 sites long and he "What worked" not even 1

  11. #231
    Mechagnome
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    I don't know, for me it all worked. Mists of Pandaria is the best addon that I have played, even better than TBC. It's just that I was tired of WoW for 5 years so I took a break for half a year. But since I returned, it has been incredibly awesome and fun. It's also the first time in a long long time when I really felt the RPG part in WoW - the first half of questing in Jade Forest (Alliance). No flymount til 90 played a great role in this.

    Though Golden Lotus dailies were too much. Reputation from one quest was minuscule, and there were a lot of them. It's much worse than 4 dailies with greater rep reward, even if just in mind.

  12. #232
    Uninteresting theme, not alt friendly, and no way to catch up in pve without LFR rng. Yea, I wonder what happened...

  13. #233
    I am Murloc! Shampro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euerfeldi View Post
    I like how this thread is already 12 sites long and he "What worked" not even 1
    People like to hate and to critizize. More news at 11.
    Last edited by Shampro; 2013-07-27 at 09:50 PM.

  14. #234
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euerfeldi View Post
    I like how this thread is already 12 sites long and he "What worked" not even 1
    To be fair, the "what worked" thread is much newer.

  15. #235
    The expansion wasn't alt friendly when it was released and IMO, the theme is very hit or miss with many. I really do think if it is the Burning Legion next expansion, that will garner a fair amount of interest, even with older players. JMO.

  16. #236
    I don't feel I'm 100% qualified to evaluate how successful MoP was or wasn't; I'm not a designer and as a player, I rarely have anything to complain about in WoW - I've been at this game, mostly on but sometimes off, for eight years and I haven't really been dissatisfied with it in all that time.

    I play two nights a week - just to raid with my guildmates and I'll pop on for another hour at some other part of the week to get my lesser charms/flasks/etc.. - my guild does heroic raids but we're never the first or even the tenth guild on the server to blow up the end boss of the current raid on heroic; we're usually the thirtieth or so and I'm fine with that - we do it on a six hour per week schedule and we're all good friends.

    I don't have alts - I've never had alts aside from the fact that I had a capped Paladin in Vanilla that I bailed on to make a Warrior at BC's launch and then never played it again (Paladin is still sitting in his R14 Honor System gear from Vanilla) and I made a DK when Wrath came out and left my warrior behind; I don't consider them alts though, I've never capped either of them to any given expansion. I feel like alts are part of how people play the game frequently because there hasn't been enough stuff to do on your "main" character alone since BC I'd say and even then it ran out eventually.

    I am not really unhappy with anything about MoP other than the gating of gear through reputation and the amount of VP you get from raid bosses as it is now significantly lower than it used to be. I don't like daily quests and I don't like faction reps that are required for me to get adequately prepared to bring a solid character to my raids. That said, I still did dailies and got the rep but I didn't enjoy it as much as I probably would've if they were done via a tabard - you can always at least find SOME use for JP that you'll inevitably get from grinding rep.

    I liked Challenge modes - I hope they're here to stay and I really liked the whole concept of the Sha and the Isle of Thunder - I thought Pandaria was a cool continent and the whole "adventure" theme was a nice break from "ROMG X IS GOING TO THREATEN ALL LIFE AND DESTROY THE PLANET!!111" that we've had the last two expansions.

    So I'm probably a bit too infrequent a player to comment because I do somewhat serious raiding but I don't play alts and rarely log on other than raid nights - I'm too old nowadays I think (WoW released when I was still in high school and now I'm through grad school and married) so I'm perfectly content paying my sub and only playing as much as I do - I think this game is still wonderful.
    Signature dunked by a lame MMO Champ robot.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Also, maybe do a cross between Wrath and MoP style of rep, the first character can do dailes up to revered then, and then at revered you can buy a BOA tabard that gives you rep in dungeons.

    This could be the best Idea in this thread.

  18. #238
    Well, seeing how people get so nostalgic about the original WoW, I kinda start realising where they are coming from. As well as the reason some aspects of MoP don't really work out.

    There is one thing that won't be recovered at all. The mystery of WoW, the sense of discovery, the feeling of slowly grasping the game. It is gone forever, and there is nothing to do about it. For those who play for a long time this is obvious, but the same happens to the newer players. Even without taking into account the training elements in WoW, the guiding and so on (and there is not even a lot of tutorial in the game), WoW has sprouted so many addons, sites and forums its difficult to just walk by. No player starting to play WoW would suck as we sucked back in Vanilla, no player would feel lost or confused.

    The thing is... still, the sense of discovery comes from one more thing - the pace. And we all gotta admit, in the expansion where the theme tells you to slow down, it's ironic that the game itself rushes you all the time. You are simply no longer allowed to discover, to slowly delight yourself with the game. I'm not being unfriendly to the speed of content releasing - I think it's a good thing to keep the game updated like that. However - just check out how fast the game wants you to be.

    First, leveling. Back in vanilla, leveling up was a thing. When you saw the glowy flashy effect you didn't immidiately check your log to see if the quests aren't getting green, or whether or not is it time to get to a new zone, or queue for another dungeon. This was the time when you knew you reached another level of your adventure, and allowed yourself to take the rewards from leveling up. All sorts of rewards. It was the time you gained new talent point to spend. It was the time you ventured back to your city to get new ranks of the spells, slowly feeling more powerfull. Maybe the quests weren't so enjoyable as today, making you spend countless hours just getting around (and don't say "immersion" and "discovery" now, the num lock key got jammed in vanilla). But, with the leveling being a logistical challenge itself, you couldn't help but to enjoy every second of it. Something missed from the current rush to the top level, where even reaching another expansion brackets can go unnoticed.

    Same thing is with the end game content. Since I'm not really a PvP player, I'm talking only about PvE, but for sure PvP got the same treatment. The rush in end game content is sometimes scary. After you finally ding 90, the rush does not stop. You are gearing for the raids now. The catch up mechanics in the game are so many that you can reach the level of raiding normal modes in not even a week after level 90. And it's not like in BC or Wrath, where there was always a way to gear up really quickly for desperate players, but why the hell do that: the game now flat out tells you that raiding is the only thing that you can do in this game to be worth a damn, so you better raid, and raid now. Raid LFR, with poor gear, being carried by the group, don't even look at what you're doing or who you are playing with, but still raid.

    For those who don't believe thats the case - look at your orange quest. The legendary quest is pretty much a timer, or "player meter". You just dinged 90? Well, turn the timer on. And go, go, go, get legendary things as soon as possible! Or you will have to wait another week to get them! Quickly, go MSV, HoF, ToES, because you need those sigils now! You didn't do your MSV this week? Fool! Your legendaries are even further now! Never make the same mistake again, go, run those LFRs, doesn't matter you don't feel ready yet!

    The game needs to do, what every Pandaren tells it to do - to slow down. To allow players who dinged 90 to take a deep breath and enjoy themselves, explore their new powers, slowly run some smaller group content before they themselves decide they are Ready for Raiding. And the same works in leveling. It's a major part of the game, and by the pace of it it feels like it's your purgatory you need to suffer in before the real game.

  19. #239
    I like the expansion very much. If I have to pick out things that could improve:

    1) Too many dailies at the start and all tied to shit rep grinds.
    2) The difficulty curve of raids was terrible. Stone guards was a bad boss to start MV with. elegon was a cock block for many. ditto for garalon. Adding a cherry on top, ToES, a simple raid was gated behind HoF. They didn't seem to learn too much in tier 15 which suffered the same problem.
    3) I dislike LFR being the only meaningful gearing alternative for alts. Many may disagree but hey, its my opinion!

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Which is of course what they tried to address in Mists. Well it didn't work. People still unsub and sub around patches and the cost of all of this is that casuals aren't engaged.
    No they didn't. They did the exact opposite of addressing it in MoP. They made it worse, MUCH worse. Scenarios replacing longer heroics isn't going to keep people playing. LFR over pugged raids isn't going to keep people playing. Absolutely terrible loot systems in BOTH scenarios and LFR hasn't kept players playing. There's more "casual-friendly" end game content than ever before. The problem is most casuals didn't even want the game to be "casual-friendly". Most were happy working their way up to where the so called hardcores were over a much longer period of time. But now that the casual folks can see most of what the hardcore players are seeing, getting loot that looks and behaves just like it they really don't care for progressing.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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