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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    This is most likely true. People assume that all casuals want to hop in and do a raid and collect some loot with minimal effort. BLizz gave that. Didn't work. That's because those types of players are vastly overexaggerated. I'm a casual player. And I have absolutely no problem with not being able to do something. I will never kill H Lei Shen. And that's totally fine by me.
    I am not so sure this is actually workable overall, though.

    If you trace back when things started to go south for WoW, many things were happening. But one thing sticks out: multiple difficulty levels were added (in Ulduar, then fully in ToC/ToGC). I'm wondering if this is more than coincidence.

    I'll argue that one of the primary deliverables of the raiding experience is ego gratification. And raiding on a lower of several difficulty settings nerfs that payoff substantially.

    The developers had this idea that everyone would be happy if they had their slice of difficulty tuned to their personal level of performance. I'm not convinced that's true at all, in an MMO. Instead, it leads to segregation and stratification of the player population, with only the upper end raiders getting the full payoff. The more difficulty settings, and the more continuous the range of progression, the less happy the overall population would be.

    If this assessment is close to correct, Flex mode could be much less successful that they hope. It will be the lowest of the organized raiding settings, with the least ego boost.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time. Double gating rewards. Ten minutes spend for flying to raid summoning stone. Ten minutes spend for flying to item vendor. Horrible idiotic currency caps.
    I do realise that Blizz wants to conquer time-paying asian market, but for me this kind of forced wasting my time is annoying beyond limits.
    Also, I think they are making (and still continue to make it) a huge mistake when they start breaking community into smaller groups. Instead of giving a content for 5 people, they are focusing on content for three/one. Instead of making an Ulduar-style one raid difficulty with hard modes actively enabled by players themselves, they make four copies of the same instance. While it is comforting for lots of people to have their own little niche, dividing a community is never a good thing.
    And I should mention the story being just bad in general. What even worse, with every patch it becomes more and more illogical and childish.
    Well, let's hope it is not too late for Blizz to start making things right
    yeah all too true.

    For me, i switched after 7 years of wow to a single rpg with a lot of replay value and i saw the light finally. WoW turned into a mindless farming browersgame. Thats not a game justa business drug to addict people - some epic item pixles won't arse me to return to this business.^^ and i don't expect any good lore either, i play through wc3 and can only wonder.

    Perhaps it got more lore than wow and all expansions combined. Well, at least lore that is important to me.

    I would play a wc4, but no wow game anymore.

  3. #263
    I know a lot of people like LFR and LFD but IMO thats what started killing the game. I know someone is going to say "Spamming trade chat for 30 minutes for a heroic wasn't fun". but if you think about it the que times are almost the same. As a tank if I posted in trade "Tank LF Heroic" in BC or WotLK the group filled instantly . Back in BC the servers had a community. Most of us had healers or tanks on our friends list and when you found a good one you remembered it. The servers policed themselves. If you were a douche it was much more difficult to get a good group. I am NOT looking thru rose colored glasses this is the way it was.

    I really think we have some very good points in this thread about how LFR has actually killed the casual guilds because its made the game way more single player and a lot less a community. People like to feel they have Earned things whether its titles achievements mounts or whatever and LFR has definitely taken the mystery out of the game. despite what some will say about this LFR and LFD have made this a much more of a single player game and less of a community. I really dont think they can put the $h^% back in the horse but I hope I am wrong.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by williedabull View Post
    I know a lot of people like LFR and LFD but IMO thats what started killing the game. I know someone is going to say "Spamming trade chat for 30 minutes for a heroic wasn't fun". but if you think about it the que times are almost the same. As a tank if I posted in trade "Tank LF Heroic" in BC or WotLK the group filled instantly . Back in BC the servers had a community. Most of us had healers or tanks on our friends list and when you found a good one you remembered it. The servers policed themselves. If you were a douche it was much more difficult to get a good group. I am NOT looking thru rose colored glasses this is the way it was.

    I really think we have some very good points in this thread about how LFR has actually killed the casual guilds because its made the game way more single player and a lot less a community. People like to feel they have Earned things whether its titles achievements mounts or whatever and LFR has definitely taken the mystery out of the game. despite what some will say about this LFR and LFD have made this a much more of a single player game and less of a community. I really dont think they can put the $h^% back in the horse but I hope I am wrong.
    it made the game more solo, but single player rpgs are FAR better than this shit.....to be honest. Cause actually if you play mop you play just a limited single player game that is stale on merely all fronts.

  5. #265
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    Mop becomes INCREDIBLY alt friendly if you decide to just be like....hey, i'll get my items eventually, I don't HAVE to grind everything out immediately. You don't need to pour your focus into your toons over the course of a few weeks, you can just lay back and take your time with it. I am living proof of this.

    I have 9 lvl 90's and since I stopped caring about Valor caps, and such, i find I have time to raid, AND do all my toons.....in the span of just 2 days a week doing LFRs and look at the result of only a month and a half of doing things like this

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - DK Main
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Paladin Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Warrior Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Hunter Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Shaman Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...coris/advanced - Druid Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Monk Main Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Mage Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Warlock Alt
    At last someone with some sense.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Convenience does not make a game fun. Convenience leads to boredom. Aside from that fact, it's also worth pointing out that in some ways, MoP has been the most convenient expansion to date. Just yesterday I hit 90 on an alt and finished Lei Shen in LFR. That's convenient. I didn't even do one 5-man. The only inconvenient thing about MoP so far is that Have Group, Will Travel is no longer in the game.
    Lol no, you completely misunderstand what I wanted to say here.
    The unfinishing stream of loot that lets a fresh 90 in a couple of hours get into ToT is bad beyond limits. But, I'd rather have alt gearing process to be something Wrath-like and have portal to IoT and item vendors in our Pandarian capital cities, than what we have now. You see? More time for active play, less time for flying afk on taxi.

  7. #267
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    Murder of pugging.

    Murder of alts.

    Valor gear behind rep. Removal of tabards. Lower rep agains in general. No multiple bonus dungeons per day (I can't play all 7 days a week).

    No instant catchup. No, I don't care about the last tier being relevant. Never have, never will.

    Putting things like trainers and vendors across the world. Autofly isn't seeing the world either, it's just wasting my time.

  8. #268
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    Its not alt friendly, you dont have any good catchup mechanism like in tbc, wrath, cata and the biggest problem of faildaria is the amounts of bugs reached a new high ...
    What would be a "good catchup mechanism" if you don't mind me asking? Pick tabard -> farm HCs until you are decked in current tier epics? No thanks.
    It takes under 10 hours of /played at max level to complete ToT LFR if you stop sucking.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol no, you completely misunderstand what I wanted to say here.
    The unfinishing stream of loot that lets a fresh 90 in a couple of hours get into ToT is bad beyond limits. But, I'd rather have alt gearing process to be something Wrath-like and have portal to IoT and item vendors in our Pandarian capital cities, than what we have now. You see? More time for active play, less time for flying afk on taxi.
    I get what you're saying, and I wouldn't object if they did move the item vendors to the capital cities and gave an IoT portal. However, what I was trying to say is that they have to be careful with convenience. A lot of aspects of the game are in the grey area, and if they default to convenience then bad things can happen. I don't blame them for making weird decisions like the one you brought up because I know their intentions are to avoid convenience, which is good for the game as a whole.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  10. #270
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Paximus View Post
    Murder of pugging.

    Murder of alts.

    Valor gear behind rep. Removal of tabards. Lower rep agains in general. No multiple bonus dungeons per day (I can't play all 7 days a week).

    No instant catchup. No, I don't care about the last tier being relevant. Never have, never will.

    Putting things like trainers and vendors across the world. Autofly isn't seeing the world either, it's just wasting my time.
    How did it murder pugging? I'm pugging ToT normal with some HC here and there on a weekly basis.

    How did it murder alts? I have 5 geared for ToT normal+

    Only valor gear that is relevant AND behind rep right now is shado-pan assault. I don't recall you getting Ashen Verdict/Avengers of Hyjal rep via dungeon farm.
    Last edited by mmoce213c955fb; 2013-07-27 at 10:58 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time. Double gating rewards. Ten minutes spend for flying to raid summoning stone. Ten minutes spend for flying to item vendor. Horrible idiotic currency caps.
    I do realise that Blizz wants to conquer time-paying asian market, but for me this kind of forced wasting my time is annoying beyond limits.
    Also, I think they are making (and still continue to make it) a huge mistake when they start breaking community into smaller groups. Instead of giving a content for 5 people, they are focusing on content for three/one. Instead of making an Ulduar-style one raid difficulty with hard modes actively enabled by players themselves, they make four copies of the same instance. While it is comforting for lots of people to have their own little niche, dividing a community is never a good thing.
    And I should mention the story being just bad in general. What even worse, with every patch it becomes more and more illogical and childish.
    Well, let's hope it is not too late for Blizz to start making things right
    All the actions you take in an mmo define its gameplay. That's kind of the point of the genre. Not only does Blizzard obviously want you (the general player) playing often AND over the course of very long periods of time, but the rest of your peers actually want you to as well. Booming populations = active ones = far more opportunity for players to do things together. Semi-instant gratification, and removal of timesinks work against this.

    The trick is to make those 'timesinks', for lack of a better word, not only seem important, but also attach a sense of decision making, risk, and consequence to doing them (or not). Then they're no longer all that trivial. Blizzard is pretty terrible at this particular aspect of MMOs. In the examples you gave, flying to vendors and such have zero risk to them, and are, as such, completely uninteresting.

    Rail against it all you like, but mmo's fall flat on their faces without these elements, and they always will.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Paximus View Post
    Murder of pugging.

    Murder of alts.

    Valor gear behind rep. Removal of tabards. Lower rep agains in general. No multiple bonus dungeons per day (I can't play all 7 days a week).

    No instant catchup. No, I don't care about the last tier being relevant. Never have, never will.

    Putting things like trainers and vendors across the world. Autofly isn't seeing the world either, it's just wasting my time.
    this all makes me wonder why cata should be that bad and mop such a relief according to the majority here.^^

    Stuff worked for me in cata as strange as this sounds.

    Tier sets were pure artist genious. twllight hammer style >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asia style. Asia style could have been better but not like it was shown in mop. Horrible ugly weapons and tier sets. Transmogg is not an excution for this. And then you get elite pvp sets with no stats but ugly pixels....wth?

    No bonus valor points for 5mans on a weekly basis and not reputation tabards, 2 horrible mistakes. Pointed out and handed multpile times to ghostcrawler and he just defends his shit.^^

    Indicator that the crap doesn't play his own work and doesn't know that games need to make fun, and wow shouldn't turn in a browserfarm game, operated only with gear addictions.

  13. #273
    for some reason I instantly got bored of a raid after clearing it. it was either go to the next level (LFR to Normal - Normal to Heroic) or not interested. unlike tbc cata wotlk i did not complain about redoing the raids

    (well to be fair i did throne of four winds once and NEVER came back there again, even if i had to fake DC every single time the guild decides to go there.

  14. #274
    1. The storyline was terrible, contrived, and preachy. Oh, you mean hate inside of us can turn us evil? Yoda did it first.

    2. My alts are an army of neglected toons. If you're going to make the game this rep-grindy, based on boring dailies, at least make the rep account-wide. Having to regrind August Celestials so I can make a couple of bags on my mage alt is just stupid. More often than not, I just logged off and played something else. I can't imagine that's what you want your game to be know for.

    3. Hiding gear behind two gates: Valor and Rep. Pick one or the other. Double gating is like double dipping.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I love my main but I get bored of playing the same class or characters all the time, so, like in wrath and cata, I like to play alts.. then remember.. jesus, I need to grind months of dailies to get anything on him/her.
    I'm sorry but this isn't even true. I got a warrior to 90 a few weeks ago, crafted him a couple things, did a few heroics for 463 gear and it was lfr time. You don't even need to bother with the reps anymore. sure the 489 gear helps but it is by no means necessary any longer.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    -LFR being considered the catchup mechanic for alts. I've farmed those damn raids for months already, the last thing I want is to do it again.
    Because spamming the same dungeons over and over again is some how different.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    The trick is to make those 'timesinks', for lack of a better word, not only seem important, but also attach a sense of decision making, risk, and consequence to doing them (or not). Then they're no longer all that trivial. Blizzard is pretty terrible at this particular aspect of MMOs. In the examples you gave, flying to vendors and such have zero risk to them, and are, as such, completely uninteresting.
    Rail against it all you like, but mmo's fall flat on their faces without these elements, and they always will.
    I won't say a word if that timesinks would actually require me to play, instead of making me waste ten minutes for a trivial task of buying a valor cape. It is just the same as if they would remove all AHs in the world and place one in Borean Tundra, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    I don't blame them for making weird decisions like the one you brought up because I know their intentions are to avoid convenience, which is good for the game as a whole.
    And, since it is possible to complete a relevant tier in a ten hours with a freshly dinged 90 alt, looks like they've failed horribly in this particular task.
    Anyway, it still looks to me like a forced thing to have fellow asian players pay more.
    Last edited by l33t; 2013-07-27 at 11:11 PM.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by turskanaattori View Post
    How did it murder pugging? I'm pugging ToT normal with some HC here and there on a weekly basis.

    How did it murder alts? I have 5 geared for ToT normal+

    Only valor gear that is relevant AND behind rep right now is shado-pan assault. I don't recall you getting Ashen Verdict/Avengers of Hyjal rep via dungeon farm.
    Maybe on your server, but there is little to no pugging on mine.

    I don't enjoy lfr. I never have and I never will so gearing through that won't work for me.

    And I was referring to the initial launch. I only recently resubbed. And the valor vendors are gated behind raid rep which is drastically different than daily rep.

  19. #279
    Making the legendary a prize for doing lfr for 100 weeks instead of doing heroic raids for 20% of that.
    Not making gold CM's super hard and making silver and bronze non important by being so faceroll by comparison.
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  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paximus View Post
    Maybe on your server, but there is little to no pugging on mine.

    I don't enjoy lfr. I never have and I never will so gearing through that won't work for me.

    And I was referring to the initial launch. I only recently resubbed. And the valor vendors are gated behind raid rep which is drastically different than daily rep.
    So, it didn't murder anything, but just did things you don't like?
    Seems fair.

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