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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    No they didn't. They did the exact opposite of addressing it in MoP. They made it worse, MUCH worse. Scenarios replacing longer heroics isn't going to keep people playing. LFR over pugged raids isn't going to keep people playing. Absolutely terrible loot systems in BOTH scenarios and LFR hasn't kept players playing. There's more "casual-friendly" end game content than ever before. The problem is most casuals didn't even want the game to be "casual-friendly". Most were happy working their way up to where the so called hardcores were over a much longer period of time. But now that the casual folks can see most of what the hardcore players are seeing, getting loot that looks and behaves just like it they really don't care for progressing.
    This is most likely true. People assume that all casuals want to hop in and do a raid and collect some loot with minimal effort. BLizz gave that. Didn't work. That's because those types of players are vastly overexaggerated. I'm a casual player. And I have absolutely no problem with not being able to do something. I will never kill H Lei Shen. And that's totally fine by me. There are plenty of people like me. People assume Casual="I have to be able to always kill something and get loot for a minimal amount of time/effort". And that's false. There are people that play only to raid. They have good progress, but when raiding is done, they are logged off. Those people aren't hardcore to me. And the person who never raids or pvp's that plays 24/7 but likes to call themself a casual, doesn't fit either.


    Where the game went wrong was when it got greedy. People like to throw out "Rese tintered derpslasses" when talking about vanilla and BC, but then WoW was a game of exploration and PLAYER CREATED CONTENT. The player created content is long gone. But in the days of Tarren Mill/Southshore, kiting bosses to SW or Org, taking over a city for a day, those kinds of things are what made the game really cool. But since everything is about convenience now, you don't need to get a group of people together except for making an ICC25 transmog run. Other than that, you sit in SW or Org and wait for your Q. And a big part of the game dying is the dying of the mmo part of the rpg. In classic it mattered shit if you raided. Getting to max level was the end game. You thought you were hot shit if you were at 50. And that was fine. Because there was alot to do.

    But now, because Blizz dug this hole of convenience, it's time for them to lie in it. Because for as nice as it is to hit a button and join other players in a dungeon or a raid, it destroys the community aspect of the game. That is why Swtor fought so hard to leave LFD out of the game. They eventually put it in in a desperate attempt to get people to play, but the game still died. But even they knew that was bad for the game.

    I'm not saying some convenience isn't healthy. But too much is deadly. And today you don't even have to talk to another person in game if you don't want to. And that shouldn't be what an mmo is about. WoW had a really, really, really good run. But it's coming to an end. And nothing they do will stop that.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  2. #262
    Scarab Lord Sky High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay why was you having 9 alts ridiculous? Like it gets thrown around that it's a bad thing but I can't for the life of me figure out why. If you have 9 alts and you play for 15-20+ then the guy who plays for 2-3 hours a week is just getting by on his one toon and is far more satisfied than now where he's getting nowhere on that one toon because you having 9 alts is apparently ridiculous??

    It get's thrown around alot but nobody has ever put up a good argument. I think it's one of those things that's just assumed is bad but nobody ever looked into it having upsides as well. Even the devs say cataclysm was far to alt friendly but well how is that possible? Like how is that a bad thing? So what you have 9 alts. I don't see the downside... I would submit that even if it is a disease (and I don't buy that it is) mists as a cure is far worse.
    for me at least I didn't have 9 fully geared alts because I wanted them...I was so god damn bored I either do that or quit the game. Cata near the end there was the time I could have walked away from the game and never come back. buuuuuut with MoP and the annual pass I had to have some reason to keep playing, my guild nuked DS so most either had numerous alt runs or just quit tell MoP, Alts were the one thing that at the least killed time for me. thats all it did, fill up time until the next Expac. THERE, an argument. it's not a criticism of having alts it's a criticism of the lack of end game that was in Cata.
    Last edited by Sky High; 2013-07-27 at 10:30 PM.

  3. #263
    Its not alt friendly, you dont have any good catchup mechanism like in tbc, wrath, cata and the biggest problem of faildaria is the amounts of bugs reached a new high ...

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    - The replay value of wow just doesn't have that replay value it once did. It seems strange saying this now since it would have applied to cata too, but given how its been over three years since cata, and the massive changes they made to vanilla wow, one of the biggest complaints about cata was how lineal the game had become. I honestly have no motivation to level alts anymore because of how boring it is, which ironically fits into what I just said about the daily grind.
    Interestingly, both wotlk and cata had 2 different starting zones to level for alts. And people can critize cata all they want, but the level expierence was by far the best out of all expansions. There was so much diversity there. The sad thing is however, this game is totally endgame focused, so these beautiful zones and quests in cata are trivial in the big picture. Blizz failed right here.

    Rare mobs and treasure hunts led max lvl players back to old zones in mists, but those zones are hardly as spectacular as the cata zones, i like a continent and diverse zones, so in that regard outland was the best idea they ever had so far.

    Another outland host of zones with ideas of cata backed in, and more endgame content in those zones will make the game world quite better, oh, and 2 different starting zones, would be nice.

  5. #265
    The idea that everyone has to do everything really made everything feel...not special. I wasn't that particularly hardcore in vanilla, but the fact that the world had all these parts that you wouldn't see immediately but instead would see EVENTUALLY in your journey was really awesome. It really added a sense of adventure.

    In MoP, everyone does everything as soon as it comes out. There are no alternate routes, no deviation, no divergance, no doing things in whatever order you happen to do them, just the same linear path for everyone for everything.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Oh, I agree completely! This is why I love Flex raiding. It brings all of the social aspects of raiding back, where LFR had taken them away. I'm curious, though. Did you find 10 man Normal to be too challenging to "get together with people week after week, building social capital"? I don't feel that this is exclusive to Heroic raiding.
    Yes, normal mode raiding was too difficult for the great majority of players. That's why I characterized this expansion as "hardcore or solo".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #267
    You gear up then if you want to be competitive in PVE you need to do the legendary line.

    Any person worth his weight with a meta will blow away (spell dps wise) anyone without it.

    Even with the nerfs I'm on the meta part of the quest for my ALT. I have 4 out of 20 of the Secrets in one week. I GOT LUCKY. A buddy in my guild working his alt got 1, the guaranteed one off of Lei Shen. 4 a week will still take me FIVE WEEKS to complete it ON MY ALT.

    Cata was friendly because you ran LFR, got the gear. Ran Normals, got the gear. IF you kept going you went into Heroics and got the gear then you were good to go.

    Now the legendary if almost required if you or your alts want to be taken seriously and honestly if you don't feel the same way then you don't need to be responding to this thread and go back and run LFR to your little hearts content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Whatever problems Shadow priests have, have nothing to do with Mobility. And Shadow seriously shouldn't see any sort of buff before Disc is nerfed into the ground. Because right now any sort of buff that could in any way trickle into disc, would turn the damn thing into the incarnation of Jesus Christ the Avenger, as the definition of demigod would be insufficient.

  8. #268
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    Its not alt friendly, you dont have any good catchup mechanism like in tbc, wrath, cata and the biggest problem of faildaria is the amounts of bugs reached a new high ...
    I think blizzards claim that there catch up mechanism is that of scenarios - dungeons then LFR.
    This just strikes me as sloppy, really sloppy, given how previous expansions had some kind of catch up mechanism with new dungeons.

    and considering kosak himself said he wished there were more dungeons, including that of recent content, proves how much of a mistake it was.

    Its such a simply but very effective concept. Dungeons give items you need to gear up, add a couple of new dungeons in for catch up, and thats all, its worked perfectly fine last three expacks.

    Also, am I the only one who thinks scenarios should be once only features we don't have to grind, but in beating them we can choose a reward for an upgrade instead of a random box drop, and keep them as 1 man only.
    Big thanks to Davillage for awesome signature

  9. #269
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time. Double gating rewards. Ten minutes spend for flying to raid summoning stone. Ten minutes spend for flying to item vendor. Horrible idiotic currency caps.
    I do realise that Blizz wants to conquer time-paying asian market, but for me this kind of forced wasting my time is annoying beyond limits.
    Also, I think they are making (and still continue to make it) a huge mistake when they start breaking community into smaller groups. Instead of giving a content for 5 people, they are focusing on content for three/one. Instead of making an Ulduar-style one raid difficulty with hard modes actively enabled by players themselves, they make four copies of the same instance. While it is comforting for lots of people to have their own little niche, dividing a community is never a good thing.
    And I should mention the story being just bad in general. What even worse, with every patch it becomes more and more illogical and childish.
    Well, let's hope it is not too late for Blizz to start making things right

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, normal mode raiding was too difficult for the great majority of players. That's why I characterized this expansion as "hardcore or solo".
    Interesting. Hopefully Flex helps that situation out if for no reason other than as a stepping stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time.
    Convenience does not make a game fun. Convenience leads to boredom. Aside from that fact, it's also worth pointing out that in some ways, MoP has been the most convenient expansion to date. Just yesterday I hit 90 on an alt and finished Lei Shen in LFR. That's convenient. I didn't even do one 5-man. The only inconvenient thing about MoP so far is that Have Group, Will Travel is no longer in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Also, am I the only one who thinks scenarios should be once only features we don't have to grind, but in beating them we can choose a reward for an upgrade instead of a random box drop, and keep them as 1 man only.
    This would be an especially good idea when also applied to leveling. Leveling scenarios, in my opinion, are a great missed opportunity by Blizzard. Quests get stale, dungeons are finite, etc. There is a huge untapped resource of scenarios, especially the ones that can't be done in Heroic, like Greenstone Village.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-07-27 at 10:40 PM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post

    I think, what blizzard seems to not understand, is how one of the biggest contributing factors of keeping players hooked on there game, is the reply value, as it is with any game. Alts are the reply value for wow, because once you've done something on your main you can't replay it. So, in what they've done with cata, and with mists, people simply don't want to play on other characters. They don't have anything to work towards on them because achievements are now account wide, so.. there i literally nothing to do outside of your main. and once you've done it on that, most would probably agree they'd sooner do the new content, not bother with alts, cancel sub until the next content patch, and then repeat.

    Anyway, thats my two cent. Unless blizzard finds a way of giving replay value to there gamers and give them reason to play other characters, to have a goal to work towards on them.. this is how it will be.
    Ever played a fallout rpg? That i call true replayability. you can start over again and again and it only gets more interesting and enjoyable.

    Lucklily Wasteland2 is coming out this autumn made by the original fallout1+2 designers. I got tired from wow, lore goes in a wrong direction, the mmo is limited to explain a story you really need to read the novels, and the game got really boring technically speaking. Reply value is small, as i consider mmos now only a more complex browser game, that is mainly about farming and doing the same things on a daily or weekly basis. And this with multiple alts gets very exhausting and in the end it wasn't fun either.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    This is most likely true. People assume that all casuals want to hop in and do a raid and collect some loot with minimal effort. BLizz gave that. Didn't work. That's because those types of players are vastly overexaggerated. I'm a casual player. And I have absolutely no problem with not being able to do something. I will never kill H Lei Shen. And that's totally fine by me.
    I am not so sure this is actually workable overall, though.

    If you trace back when things started to go south for WoW, many things were happening. But one thing sticks out: multiple difficulty levels were added (in Ulduar, then fully in ToC/ToGC). I'm wondering if this is more than coincidence.

    I'll argue that one of the primary deliverables of the raiding experience is ego gratification. And raiding on a lower of several difficulty settings nerfs that payoff substantially.

    The developers had this idea that everyone would be happy if they had their slice of difficulty tuned to their personal level of performance. I'm not convinced that's true at all, in an MMO. Instead, it leads to segregation and stratification of the player population, with only the upper end raiders getting the full payoff. The more difficulty settings, and the more continuous the range of progression, the less happy the overall population would be.

    If this assessment is close to correct, Flex mode could be much less successful that they hope. It will be the lowest of the organized raiding settings, with the least ego boost.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    To me, it is the pathetic attempts to steal our time. Every basic action, which in no way defines any gameplay, steals a portion of time for the reason of plain stealing a portion of time. Double gating rewards. Ten minutes spend for flying to raid summoning stone. Ten minutes spend for flying to item vendor. Horrible idiotic currency caps.
    I do realise that Blizz wants to conquer time-paying asian market, but for me this kind of forced wasting my time is annoying beyond limits.
    Also, I think they are making (and still continue to make it) a huge mistake when they start breaking community into smaller groups. Instead of giving a content for 5 people, they are focusing on content for three/one. Instead of making an Ulduar-style one raid difficulty with hard modes actively enabled by players themselves, they make four copies of the same instance. While it is comforting for lots of people to have their own little niche, dividing a community is never a good thing.
    And I should mention the story being just bad in general. What even worse, with every patch it becomes more and more illogical and childish.
    Well, let's hope it is not too late for Blizz to start making things right
    yeah all too true.

    For me, i switched after 7 years of wow to a single rpg with a lot of replay value and i saw the light finally. WoW turned into a mindless farming browersgame. Thats not a game justa business drug to addict people - some epic item pixles won't arse me to return to this business.^^ and i don't expect any good lore either, i play through wc3 and can only wonder.

    Perhaps it got more lore than wow and all expansions combined. Well, at least lore that is important to me.

    I would play a wc4, but no wow game anymore.

  14. #274
    I know a lot of people like LFR and LFD but IMO thats what started killing the game. I know someone is going to say "Spamming trade chat for 30 minutes for a heroic wasn't fun". but if you think about it the que times are almost the same. As a tank if I posted in trade "Tank LF Heroic" in BC or WotLK the group filled instantly . Back in BC the servers had a community. Most of us had healers or tanks on our friends list and when you found a good one you remembered it. The servers policed themselves. If you were a douche it was much more difficult to get a good group. I am NOT looking thru rose colored glasses this is the way it was.

    I really think we have some very good points in this thread about how LFR has actually killed the casual guilds because its made the game way more single player and a lot less a community. People like to feel they have Earned things whether its titles achievements mounts or whatever and LFR has definitely taken the mystery out of the game. despite what some will say about this LFR and LFD have made this a much more of a single player game and less of a community. I really dont think they can put the $h^% back in the horse but I hope I am wrong.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by williedabull View Post
    I know a lot of people like LFR and LFD but IMO thats what started killing the game. I know someone is going to say "Spamming trade chat for 30 minutes for a heroic wasn't fun". but if you think about it the que times are almost the same. As a tank if I posted in trade "Tank LF Heroic" in BC or WotLK the group filled instantly . Back in BC the servers had a community. Most of us had healers or tanks on our friends list and when you found a good one you remembered it. The servers policed themselves. If you were a douche it was much more difficult to get a good group. I am NOT looking thru rose colored glasses this is the way it was.

    I really think we have some very good points in this thread about how LFR has actually killed the casual guilds because its made the game way more single player and a lot less a community. People like to feel they have Earned things whether its titles achievements mounts or whatever and LFR has definitely taken the mystery out of the game. despite what some will say about this LFR and LFD have made this a much more of a single player game and less of a community. I really dont think they can put the $h^% back in the horse but I hope I am wrong.
    it made the game more solo, but single player rpgs are FAR better than this shit.....to be honest. Cause actually if you play mop you play just a limited single player game that is stale on merely all fronts.

  16. #276
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    Mop becomes INCREDIBLY alt friendly if you decide to just be like....hey, i'll get my items eventually, I don't HAVE to grind everything out immediately. You don't need to pour your focus into your toons over the course of a few weeks, you can just lay back and take your time with it. I am living proof of this.

    I have 9 lvl 90's and since I stopped caring about Valor caps, and such, i find I have time to raid, AND do all my toons.....in the span of just 2 days a week doing LFRs and look at the result of only a month and a half of doing things like this

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - DK Main
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Paladin Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Warrior Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Hunter Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Shaman Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...coris/advanced - Druid Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Monk Main Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Mage Alt
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...prime/advanced - Warlock Alt
    At last someone with some sense.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    Convenience does not make a game fun. Convenience leads to boredom. Aside from that fact, it's also worth pointing out that in some ways, MoP has been the most convenient expansion to date. Just yesterday I hit 90 on an alt and finished Lei Shen in LFR. That's convenient. I didn't even do one 5-man. The only inconvenient thing about MoP so far is that Have Group, Will Travel is no longer in the game.
    Lol no, you completely misunderstand what I wanted to say here.
    The unfinishing stream of loot that lets a fresh 90 in a couple of hours get into ToT is bad beyond limits. But, I'd rather have alt gearing process to be something Wrath-like and have portal to IoT and item vendors in our Pandarian capital cities, than what we have now. You see? More time for active play, less time for flying afk on taxi.

  18. #278
    Field Marshal
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    Murder of pugging.

    Murder of alts.

    Valor gear behind rep. Removal of tabards. Lower rep agains in general. No multiple bonus dungeons per day (I can't play all 7 days a week).

    No instant catchup. No, I don't care about the last tier being relevant. Never have, never will.

    Putting things like trainers and vendors across the world. Autofly isn't seeing the world either, it's just wasting my time.

  19. #279
    The Lightbringer turskanaattori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummockelchen View Post
    Its not alt friendly, you dont have any good catchup mechanism like in tbc, wrath, cata and the biggest problem of faildaria is the amounts of bugs reached a new high ...
    What would be a "good catchup mechanism" if you don't mind me asking? Pick tabard -> farm HCs until you are decked in current tier epics? No thanks.
    It takes under 10 hours of /played at max level to complete ToT LFR if you stop sucking.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol no, you completely misunderstand what I wanted to say here.
    The unfinishing stream of loot that lets a fresh 90 in a couple of hours get into ToT is bad beyond limits. But, I'd rather have alt gearing process to be something Wrath-like and have portal to IoT and item vendors in our Pandarian capital cities, than what we have now. You see? More time for active play, less time for flying afk on taxi.
    I get what you're saying, and I wouldn't object if they did move the item vendors to the capital cities and gave an IoT portal. However, what I was trying to say is that they have to be careful with convenience. A lot of aspects of the game are in the grey area, and if they default to convenience then bad things can happen. I don't blame them for making weird decisions like the one you brought up because I know their intentions are to avoid convenience, which is good for the game as a whole.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

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