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  1. #301
    The tuning of the raids was a failure. It destroyed the social and lower tier guilds. This is a mmo and people do play it for the social ties, those people got slapped down and told to do lfr. That's not what many of them were wanting. Their guilds broke up and those people quit.

    The main problem with this expansion is that they bought into everything the hardcore told them and did all they could to please them. As nice as the raids have been in this expansion they have been failures due to tuning. Dragon Soul was small and out for far too long yet managed to keep people playing because it allowed people in it's doors. Now most people are locked out and outside of raids there has been a lack of content.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert3620 View Post
    The main problem with this expansion is that they bought into everything the hardcore told them and did all they could to please them.
    They didn't, though. I feel just as neglected as everyone else on this forum. If they bought into everything hardcores had told them, they would remove all raid difficulties except heroic, remove LFR, remove LFD, etc. MoP is hardly a hardcore-focused expansion.

    What it did do was cut out the middle class players. It's a binary expansion, like Osmeric pointed out, of completely solo play or hardcore play. That's the problem, not some imagined focus on hardcore whining. Hardcores didn't get catered to, they simply got left alone while middle-class players were shut down in favor of solo play via LFR.

    Ironically, this sucks for hardcore guilds as they no longer have middle-class players filtering up into their guilds for recruitment. This has led to a gradual population decline that isn't very good for long-term heroic raiding. Yay for Flex Raiding.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-07-28 at 12:32 AM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  3. #303
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    Dailies. A lot of people feel like they have to do all the things, and dailies made that nearly impossible this expansion. Before I self-moderated, I was burning out, hard. Finances forced me on a leave of absence from the game, and when I came back I almost entirely ignored dailies, except for an alt who just hit 90 -- and then, I only do dailies for the rep he needs for his profession. To hell with the rest. Burn out kills subs, and they gave people too much to do.

    On the opposite hand, they also killed dungeons in favor of scenarios, and not everyone likes that change. Personally I adore scenarios and never much like dungeons, but I know I'm in the minority. I know people didn't like this decision, and that too killed subs.

  4. #304
    I'm still playing. I did take a 4 month break because (Thunder king wasn't so much a hold for me) but I'm back and enjoying the content. However, for me, there just were 0 5 man mounts to go for. Cataclysm I had Stonecore, Vortex Pinnacle, and Phosphorent to go for. Wrath I had Time-Lost, AND a bunch of raid mounts. Now, all I have to go for Is Elegon and Horridon...

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by lostdrewid View Post
    Dailies. A lot of people feel like they have to do all the things, and dailies made that nearly impossible this expansion. Before I self-moderated, I was burning out, hard. Finances forced me on a leave of absence from the game, and when I came back I almost entirely ignored dailies, except for an alt who just hit 90 -- and then, I only do dailies for the rep he needs for his profession. To hell with the rest. Burn out kills subs, and they gave people too much to do.
    I don't see how dailies are negative to the game. In fact, I added them to my list in what went right. You mention yourself in this very paragraph that dailies are optional, as you intentionally skipped them and as far as I can tell, you're still alive. Why should optional content that some people like be a negative to the game? Why not just ignore it? Why is Blizzard responsible for you burning yourself out on content you don't enjoy? At some point, they have to add another piece of content that you don't find fun. Will you burn yourself out on that as well and ask them to remove it? The game is for everyone, not just yourself. If the content is optional, treat it as such and leave it alone for people who want it.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I love my main but I get bored of playing the same class or characters all the time, so, like in wrath and cata, I like to play alts.. then remember.. jesus, I need to grind months of dailies to get anything on him/her.
    Gonna disagree. Leveled a new horde to 90 over the last couple weeks. W/o access to my other 18 alliance chars and professions, still managed to get the iLvl to get into MSV in 3 days, and HoF/ToES in 6.

  7. #307
    How can anyone possibly be complaining about catchup mechanics? It takes 3 weeks maybe to catch up. Unless you believe every single alt should be geared to the gills with a legendary cloaks after 3 weeks.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazooty View Post
    How can anyone possibly be complaining about catchup mechanics? It takes 3 weeks maybe to catch up. Unless you believe every single alt should be geared to the gills with a legendary cloaks after 3 weeks.
    Easily. I liked Cata and Wrath's much better.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So rather then mixing it into another thread based on 'omg 7.7 subs wow is dying', I'd like to simply ask what people think happened in mists that caused such a surge of losses in such a short space of time.
    If you are looking for reasons within the game, then most plausible ones have already been mentioned.

    Many players have/will hit a wall in MoP where they can't really progress anymore with their main character, but can't face up to the grind of having to do everything they already did again on an alt (or alts). Whether it's mostly solo players getting bored senseless out of LFR or casual raiders struggling with normal modes and longstanding guilds threatening to fall apart, I expect that many players will have felt at one point or another that they can't go forward but don't want to go back (on an alt) either.

    But I don't think the sub losses can just be attributed to issues with WoW or MoP specifically. Players do get bored or attracted by the next "new thing" and will move on. Over the last 24 months F2P really has come into its own; there are plenty of quality games out there offering a fresh experience for free (or at least for however much you want to pay in the cash shop). No single game may have lived up to its hype as "WoW-killer", but overall the industry is moving on and this is beginning to show. If anything, I think it's impressive that WoW still has 7.7m subscribers.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Always easy to talk about players who walked away, not thinking about what'd happen if Mists continued this atrocious idea that you should be able to cap a characters progression for a week in 1-2 hours of doing 5man content and a LFR run. Mists still award those people, but no. Not to the same extent as 4.3 did.



    You should really look up some 4.3 threads, because this is just disconnected from reality. Tabards made dungeons too rewarding. Dungeons added over time made you have less variance. Instant catch up made people bored out of their minds. But hey, I'm still seeing plenty of catch up mechanics in Mists. They're just not instant. And again, the backlash of 4.3 was so great that they did such a big change in Mists. Nope, it's not working for everyone, but damn if there's anything I can say with absolute certainty, it's that if Mists continued like 4.3, the exodus of players would be tremendous.



    I have never understood how an expansion that keeps people busy, instead of making them cap a character in an hour, can be regarded as a colossal failure. Then again, what patch or expansion hasn't been called a colossal failure in some regard. Yup, that includes BC.
    MoP has its issues. 4.3 was a clusterfuck.
    Because keep players busy should not be the primary goal of the developer. Entertaining their audience should be. If I wanted busy work I'd stay at my job and take on other peoples work. MoP is a COLLOSAL failure, it was a cure for a disease (4.3) that really wasn't a disease and was worse than the disease. It didn't work as a tool for subscriber retention (according to the developer people still sub and unsub between patches) and the cost was that the casual experience was sacrificed.

    Instant catch up MADE SOME PEOPLE bored but I would submit that group of vocal bored forums guys are the ones disconnected from reality. Playing 20-30 hours week on one guy is unsustainable and unsupportable and if the developers had any sense they'd tell you exactly that. Instead they did everything in their power to make sure you could do exactly that.

    Your supposition about the continued exodus of players is exactly that just a supposition. It is equally possible that Mists would have kept even more players if they went with a far more forgiving catch up model, far closer to instant what we have today. It's better than it was in 5.0 no doubt but it's still terrible and still not very casual friendly. You can't say it with certainty but we can say with certainty (because the developers have said as much) that casuals weren't engaged this expansion well I think it's obvious why that is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post

    Rail against it all you like, but mmo's fall flat on their faces without these elements, and they always will.
    Right. Okay. Don't call WoW an MMO then. I could care less. Everything that wow did and what made wow a success was totally and completely the opposite of every mmo standard in the universe. Flying is on EXCELLENT example of this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    for me at least I didn't have 9 fully geared alts because I wanted them...I was so god damn bored I either do that or quit the game. Cata near the end there was the time I could have walked away from the game and never come back. buuuuuut with MoP and the annual pass I had to have some reason to keep playing, my guild nuked DS so most either had numerous alt runs or just quit tell MoP, Alts were the one thing that at the least killed time for me. thats all it did, fill up time until the next Expac. THERE, an argument. it's not a criticism of having alts it's a criticism of the lack of end game that was in Cata.
    but you didn't lack an end game. You had one. It was called Alts. Now the people who can only play for like 2-3 hours a week DO LACK an end game, an end game they can have any meaningful progress in. SO that you could have more to do and not be bored because you play like 15+ hours a week or whatever.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 12:57 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    there's some truth to this but players have to try to get better. some guilds i know of broke up because the gm couldn't master attenuation and wouldn't sit for that fight. he wouldn't listen either. others got stuck on elegon because dummies couldn't set or reset their stacks or find a way to down 4 orbs each time.

    that's not blizzard's fault, it bad players that make that happen. Horridon wasn't that hard before nerf imo. people just didn't focus properly.
    Hardly. If Blizzard wants my gaming dollars they have to get better. My friends and I play just fine. I dont care much about loot, i dont need to brag about downing imaginary heroic bosses.
    What I'd like is to be able to learn a boss fight within a 2 hour play session. Just a sense of progress and camaraderie with my friends.
    We have no delusions about downing heroic content, none of us care to commit that much time of our lives to it. If its billed as "heroic" it should be that way. But raids billed as "normal", felt anything but.

    Over tuned "normal" raids feel like false advertising. When i do a normal raid i hope to have a little fun. Not get punched in the face by stone guards, vizier, garalon for 2 hours straight. If someone invited me over to a party, then punched me in the face. I'd leave, my friends would leave.



    And no, I dont consider LFR to be a raiding experience. Its like riding through Yosemite on a tour bus packed with people. Totally different than hiking or camping with some friends in Yosemite.

  12. #312
    I think the major issues with Mists were that it was extremely alt-unfriendly and took too long to address that problem, the pervasiveness of LFR made gearing alts even more repetitive, and the overall theme was controversial rather than a "safe bet" theme like Legion- opening itself up to all the the people unable or unwilling to see past "lol pandas are for babies" perhaps affording more bad press and reputation than past expansions. Throne of Thunder raid tuning was also alienating to many casual guilds. Considering only about 5% of players are Heroic raiders, lower-difficulty content should be a design priority.

    I also think that Mists didn't make enough changes to freshen up an aging game with an outdated subscription model.

  13. #313
    The idea that the players just need to get better is absurd. You do not design the content around people needing to get better. You design it around the players. Normal has been badly tuned this entire expansion because it's what the hardcore asked and called for. Then the idea was throw out, well if it's too hard go pound sand and do lfr. A lot of people said to hell with that and quit.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post


    Convenience does not make a game fun. Convenience leads to boredom. Aside from that fact, it's also worth pointing out that in some ways, MoP has been the most convenient expansion to date. Just yesterday I hit 90 on an alt and finished Lei Shen in LFR. That's convenient. I didn't even do one 5-man. The only inconvenient thing about MoP so far is that Have Group, Will Travel is no longer in the game.

    This is simple untrue. The game has also ROBBED so much player convenience and has just put players out for well no reason. Conveneience doesn't make a game fun or not but inconvenience can certainly make a game unfun. Boredom for you is a welcome addition for the guy who can only afford to put in so much time for the game. Would you go back to the days when you didn't have saved games and had to input codes? Saved games were a huge convenience.. Mists has lot's that isn't convenient about it like no flying for alts is another big one. Having to head to go to the stupid IOT to make craftable is another, lack of flying is another, mostly it's just the constant running around. Dungeons were also far more convenient as far as bite sized content goes.

    As for your experience with lei shen I would submit you are extremely atypical. I mean I finished my alt a couple of days ago and I still haven't seen lei shen but I didn't play like a mad man. Once again the casuals aren't the problem, the people who play for extended ridiculous periods of time are because they force the developers to design around THEM and not from the bottom up.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    I don't see how dailies are negative to the game. In fact, I added them to my list in what went right. You mention yourself in this very paragraph that dailies are optional, as you intentionally skipped them and as far as I can tell, you're still alive. Why should optional content that some people like be a negative to the game? Why not just ignore it? Why is Blizzard responsible for you burning yourself out on content you don't enjoy? At some point, they have to add another piece of content that you don't find fun. Will you burn yourself out on that as well and ask them to remove it? The game is for everyone, not just yourself. If the content is optional, treat it as such and leave it alone for people who want it.
    Keep in mind that early on, ignoring dailies meant there was a lot you couldn't access. Valor points earned from raids were pretty much useless unless you did dailies to unlock valor gear... which made people feel like they were forced to do dailies (if you earn currency from one aspect of the game, you shouldn't have to complete another aspect of the game for that currency to be useful).


    More generally, I think that part of the problem is that it's just very difficult to regain players who left because they truly were done with the game. Players who quit during TBC, Wrath, or even Cata are unlikely to come back based on changes that have been made. It's possible, certainly, but it's more likely they just moved on. You can fix things to retain current players, and attract new players though features and the like, but it is very difficult to convince players who left to come back. (I'm assuming players who left because they truly weren't enjoying the new direction of the game, not people who left due to finances/time/etc or people who just rage quit to try and force Blizzard to do something.)

  16. #316
    Can't speak for others but for myself as someone who's been playin since vanilla (with a break here and there) there was just nothing to keep me around anymore.

    - PvP doesn't feel right anymore, everyone is too powerful imo. Too much hp, too much selfhealing, too much cc, too many snare breaks.

    - PvE guild recruitement sucked on a high pop realm ;/ most new recruits turned out to be terrible players with many "omg don't stand in the fire" moments. But with no incentive to get better due to LFR it's not super hard to figure out why. Not that I object to LFR as I can see both the pro's and the cons..

    - I don't like dailys.. Never did, never will.

    - Everything goes too fast, you get gear way too easy and you quickly run out of things to do. I've had to resort to getting silly achievements to keep myself entertained.

    - I didn't really care for the raids either, I'm a huge lore fan but while raiding MSV there were moments when I just found myself not giving a shit about the boss. ToT on the other hand was a fantastic raid but again some encounters are just bad.

    - Bad player models, yes it's a minor thing but after all these years and terrific npc models it's time to see some improvements... not just the looks but animations aswel.

    - Bad tier designs don't really make me want to get them either, sure stats are important and there's the transmog option I do think it's cool to have something new and awesome to show aswel. I remember not liking the AQ40 tier but after a while it grew on me when people were impressed with it etc.

    - Leveling a totally new char from 1 tot 90 was dull and not really engaging. I hardly ran into people and found myself getting really bored at times. When entering Pandaria even with the 33% patch it was still a tedious place to level.

    - LFD/LFR/RGB ruin server community's and I wouldn't really miss them. Sure at first I'd miss the conviency but I'll get used to it.

    - I could do without flying mounts. Yes they're awesome and convient but using an FP and running the rest of the way really wasn't that bad.


    Hmm despite all these things I still play because I enjoy the game to some extent, I think mainly because of friends.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert3620 View Post
    The idea that the players just need to get better is absurd. You do not design the content around people needing to get better. You design it around the players. Normal has been badly tuned this entire expansion because it's what the hardcore asked and called for. Then the idea was throw out, well if it's too hard go pound sand and do lfr. A lot of people said to hell with that and quit.
    Right idea, wrong conclusion. Normal was tuned harder than it was in the previous expansion on the assumption that LFR would provide a low difficulty option, but Blizzard failed to provide something for the social/casual guilds who came to love raiding in Cata when it was easy, but didn't want to deal with the idiots and environment provided by LFR.

    The solution isn't to make Normal absurdly easy again, and their mistake wasn't making normal harder. The mistake was not simultaneously providing a lower difficulty outside of LFR, and they're providing the solution in 5.4 with Flex raiding, which will be perfect for such social/casual guilds, not only because it's lower difficulty but because it's less strict on comp requirements.

  18. #318
    I personally feel like 5mans should reward gear in line with lfr, or at least have vendors not requiring rep, so that people dont have to run the lfr on alts, its just tedious, mix it up a little

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    No they didn't. They did the exact opposite of addressing it in MoP. They made it worse, MUCH worse. Scenarios replacing longer heroics isn't going to keep people playing. LFR over pugged raids isn't going to keep people playing. Absolutely terrible loot systems in BOTH scenarios and LFR hasn't kept players playing. There's more "casual-friendly" end game content than ever before. The problem is most casuals didn't even want the game to be "casual-friendly". Most were happy working their way up to where the so called hardcores were over a much longer period of time. But now that the casual folks can see most of what the hardcore players are seeing, getting loot that looks and behaves just like it they really don't care for progressing.

    The gates, grinds, weekly lock out on lfr, emphasis on daily questing, de emphasis on valor, lowered valor cap and lowered valor gains all suggest that their goal was very much to keep players chasing the carrot and retained for as long as they could. Subscriber retention was their goal and they did this by offering players more to do. Well for casuals this was the shaft and they said no thanks and left.

    I agree about loot systems and pugs and all of that but I think were talking about two different things here. They wanted to keep the crowd who said "we're bored" in 4.3 subbed because they blew through all the content and would resub between patches. They didn't succeed at that despite their best efforts. It takes FAR more time to do anything in this game than it has since well TBC. At the same time casuals got shafted (actual casuals in terms of time to play) and left the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Right idea, wrong conclusion. Normal was tuned harder than it was in the previous expansion on the assumption that LFR would provide a low difficulty option, but Blizzard failed to provide something for the social/casual guilds who came to love raiding in Cata when it was easy, but didn't want to deal with the idiots and environment provided by LFR.

    The solution isn't to make Normal absurdly easy again, and their mistake wasn't making normal harder. The mistake was not simultaneously providing a lower difficulty outside of LFR, and they're providing the solution in 5.4 with Flex raiding, which will be perfect for such social/casual guilds, not only because it's lower difficulty but because it's less strict on comp requirements.
    Actually the solution is to make normals easy again. The mistake was making normals hard again. How many more times does the player base have to reject hard content before the developers figure it out? Simple dividing players up between tiers of difficulty will not pump much needed life back into raiding or help retain subscribers. Theirs no illusion that your better or stronger than you actually are in that system. Theirs you being told exactly where you are and given a number in the masses.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Right idea, wrong conclusion. Normal was tuned harder than it was in the previous expansion on the assumption that LFR would provide a low difficulty option, but Blizzard failed to provide something for the social/casual guilds who came to love raiding in Cata when it was easy, but didn't want to deal with the idiots and environment provided by LFR.

    The solution isn't to make Normal absurdly easy again, and their mistake wasn't making normal harder. The mistake was not simultaneously providing a lower difficulty outside of LFR, and they're providing the solution in 5.4 with Flex raiding, which will be perfect for such social/casual guilds, not only because it's lower difficulty but because it's less strict on comp requirements.
    Normal was not that easy before this expansion. That's what the hardcore were screaming about, that it was and Blizzard bought it hook line and sinker. Dragon Soul before the nerfs was about right or even Firelands was fine. If people want really hard content they have heroic. Normal should be normal.

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