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  1. #341
    The game is almost nine years old and still has 7.7 million subscriptions. I'd say the game is doing pretty well considering the fact that WoW is no longer new and fresh like when it first came out.

  2. #342
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    What was robbed from you this expansion? Alts are easier to progress than any expansion to date. Is there something else I'm missing?



    This is opinion, as was mine. Tell me, though. If you add more and more convenience to a game, it becomes shorter and shorter. There is only so much content a developer can create. Would you find a good game to continue to hold it's high regard in your mind if it were only 30 minutes long? The answer for me would be no. I want to spend time playing games, not just finish games for the sake of finishing games.



    Saved games aren't a convenience. They're a necessity. A human being cannot physically sit in front of a game for hundreds of hours without risking their health. This is very, very different from convenience.



    I am actually in support of having flying for alts. The point of removing flying in MoP during leveling was so you could see the content. But if you've seen it once, you earn the right to fly over it. The same can be said for alts. You saw it on your main and you should have earned the right to fly over and ignore it. Flying for your first character would be a bad idea, though.



    I would argue that your experience, not mine, is atypical. Almost everyone I talk to or hear from has the same experience as me. Very little time spent, almost not gold spent, and you can reach and kill Lei Shen within a day of reaching 90. It all comes down to the treasure run and having 20 Elder Charms for t14.



    Except Blizzard doesn't listen to the hardcores. If they did, LFR, LFD, and a number of other systems would be gone. As would Normal modes. I would argue the opposite, that Blizzard caters to casuals who are unsure what they want in anticipation of a short-term gain in money and subscriptions, instead of investing long-term in people who are devoted to their game and aren't unsure about their approach.
    Alts were far easier to progress in cataclysm especially with tabards and with 7/day to cap valor and no needless double gating and catch up dungeons. Now those dungeons may have been harder to accomplish but that's okay because I'm in favor of easy dungeons with gear as well.

    If the content in the game is so shallow that the only way to keep it going long enough is to make TRAVEL a ridiculous and arbitrary grind to keep me subbed then the developers have bigger problems.

    Saved games are not a necessity. They weren't for much of video gaming history. I could argue flying mounts are a necessity. Their were lots of methods in the past for continuing games without physical memory, see saved game codes or check points. Saving a game at any point is a huge CONVENIENCE and one that is almost now universally accepted.

    No your experience is definetly atypical and not how the developers have designed it. How much time did you put since you hit 90? How much luck did you have? How many coins did you roll on? We need more details but the reality is to kill lfr lei shen in one day you need a pretty good mixture of time investment and luck. The caps on lfr, coins and the weekly barrens crap is proof enough of that. Even 20 coins isn't enough often. Very very few people are killing lei shen on day one at lvl 90, especially if their new to this game and especially if they don't have hours and hours to commit to it. You committed hours to it, got extremely lucky or frankly are full of shit. Hell just completing all the lfrs back to back (never mind the ILVL requirement) is a good day at least. An hour in que and then an hour for each (more likely hour and half or 2 hours).

    No Blizzard did listen to the hardcores, it's just that totality of your wishes and wants are so obviously unreasonable that not all of them can be listened to. Getting rid of lfr and lfd are good examples of that. Those are obviously here to stay and it would be best if you recognized they are here to stay. Now you won't do this and instead you'll rail on about how you get ignored even though that simple isn't true. For the amount of the player base that we could label or dub "hardcore" you've gotten more than your numbers probably deserve. They have bean counters to listen to and the bean counters determine much of what goes on in the games. Like that's the best part you don't even realize how unrealistic your wishes are and when the developers (naturally) don't heed to those wishes you automatically think they haven't listened to when they've done nothing but listen to you or at least acceded to your desires far more than they should have. That's entitlement btw.. I mean that's real entitlement not what get's labeled entitlement.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 03:47 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I love my main but I get bored of playing the same class or characters all the time, so, like in wrath and cata, I like to play alts.. then remember.. jesus, I need to grind months of dailies to get anything on him/her.
    That might have been true if you were bringing up an alt within the first month or two of Mists launch. Current mists is INSANELY alt friendly, what with the changes they made in response to all the people who pointed out how hard it was early on. Especially with the double rep bonus you get for any daily faction. You can literally hit exalted with pretty much any faction except August Celestials in less then a week. Even quicker if you kill a few warbringers / warscouts for rep tokens (2k rep per token with the rep bonus adds up fast).

    Add to that the changes made to the Justice Point gear / valor gear gating, and the addition of the Isle of Thunder / Battlefield Barrens stuff, and you can be LFR ready within a week at most, and into ToT in your second week tops. Honestly, If you are having trouble getting an alt up to speed, you are probably doing something wrong.

    Hell, Since I mainly do LFR, and love to have alts for tradeskills, I tend to have fun messign with my alts once my main caps out on Valor for the week. I now have 3 characters who will probably be finished the Legendary Cloak questline up to its current point by time the next patch hits, and all I really do is run ToT LFR once a week and maybe do a Heroic Scenario or two.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No Blizzard did listen to the hardcores, it's just that totality of your wishes and wants are so obviously unreasonable that not all of them can be listened to. Getting rid of lfr and lfd are good examples of that. Those are obviously here to stay and it would be best if you recognized they are here to stay. Now you won't do this and instead you'll rail on about how you get ignored even though that simple isn't true. For the amount of the player base that we could label or dub "hardcore" you've gotten more than your numbers probably deserve. They have bean counters to listen to and the bean counters determine much of what goes on in the games. Like that's the best part you don't even realize how unrealistic your wishes are and when the developers (naturally) don't heed to those wishes you automatically think they haven't listened to when they've done nothing but listen to you.
    I am definitely, definitely, definitely not a hardcore (I haven't downed a singled normal mode boss in either Cata or MoP), but even I think LFR is really contributing to lessening the quality of WoW.

  5. #345
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    I am definitely, definitely, definitely not a hardcore (I haven't downed a singled normal mode boss in either Cata or MoP), but even I think LFR is really contributing to lessening the quality of WoW.
    Based on what I might ask? It strikes me that to have an opinion on the quality of that content one should partake in that content. It sounds like you're forum crusading.


    Understand I'm not pro lfr or anti lfr. I'm only pro lfr in a universe where raiding is all consuming. Well if raiding takes a back seat and you get 4 bosses every year or so then I'm fine with lfr going the way of the dinosaur. As long as we have big raid tiers with loads of bosses then LFR is here to stay and should stay.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 03:43 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #346
    I agree with those who said it's not alt friendly, but that isn't everything I think declined subs.

    I think that having content that was new deterred a lot of players. As whacky as that seems, WoW is still a very loyal fanbase with a lot of people having played the WC RTS games, a brand new story that had absolutely no predecessor in terms of lore really wasn't smart. I get that they have to introduce new story content, but if you give the fans a good basis or this then they'll stick with it, but bringing up something out of the blue seemed a weird side step.

    To make that easier to understand, MoP felt like a side quest. A ide quest that was picked up randomly and never really explained unil the very end, if we had learnt throughout Cata that Y'Shaarj was around and influencing things people would have felt more compelled to see throuh Pandaria, but because it was told the way it was, it was almost like introducing someone to a new game. MMO's should stay fresh, but they should rarely give out the majority of their content based on what they want to do with it, without first letting the player base get a glimpse and also feeling like it's a problem that needs solving.

    And yes you could say they've been doing this, but they kinda need to do it for every expansion, not just the major boss ones, there's absolutely nothing wrong with basing an expansion around 2 ultimate evils just to allow for an end boss and something that's just butting heads along the way. End bosses don't always have to be huge lore characters, just ones we actually know about and care about the end result of.

    Everyone wanted to kill Arthas, everyone wanted to kill Illidan, and ofc everyone wanted to kill Deathwing cuz he was being a bit of a d**k. But where was that in MoP? Sure we get to take out Garrosh, and we knew it from the get go, but I really, REALLY doubt that we'd even have a 7.7 mil player base if they hadn't forewarned us of what was coming.

    A lot of people moan about mechanics, and the way the game is built around the more casual plaer, but they're ignoring that Blizzard is STILL catering to all of it's fanbase in terms of gameplay, but what they're really not doing is introducing new characters that stick, make the player feel sympathy for them, giving them villians that nt only feel strong, but act in a way that they'd oppose i they were their character,

    Again I think a lot of MMORPG's have lost the RPG element, gearing doesn't feel like role playing, it feels like leveling up. Just a lot slower. Give us the good story, onsomething we can relate and we shall stay forever, but give us what you want to give us, and know that not everyone will like it.

    Nothing wrong with new story content, but don't spring it on us from the blue allow it to build up, heck imo there should have been indications in TBC about a threat we don't yet have to deal with but we know one day we'll get there. It's going to work out much better if people know "Ok these are the current bad guys in WoW, heck this is even a priority list for killing them, who's currently the most problematic for peace on Azeroth?" Afterall, isn't that what WoW is about? Creating peace on a planet that's going through a tonne of problems?

    Give us content we can relate to, not content you WANT us to relate to. But since you can make us relate to that content, put the work in early and you'll see the benefits.

    I'm not even saying they should be like "Omg we need an end boss for Expac 6, so lets put clues in expac 4!" I want there to be all these subtle hints throughout the world that let us theorize, and almost prepare for what is coming. I mean, the earth know when asteroids are going to hit to a certain degree of accuracy, why can't we know when a malevolent force is planning an uprising? Does every single one of them hide secrets so well that we only know the moment it begins? No. It's just lazy writing, as if they're only focused on current content, which really I don't think you can be anymore.

    Havve Expac 8 boss clues in Expac 2, have Expac 9 clues in Expac 4, don't keep a system, make it widely known that shit's gonnz go down, we just have no way of dealing with it until the enemy makes their move and no way of knowing exactly when it's going to happen. That way when an expansion comes out focused around a certain villain, people know why they're attacking and people will relate, the newer fanbase hasn't got the greatest grip of lore as it is so it still won't affect the, but it does allow the veterans a chance to look back and say "We'll I've been waiting to kill this bitch for 5 expacs, so damn well right I'm gonna do it."

    Also, if people are quitting WoW due to the current systems in place, they shouldn't get their hopes up for other MMOs, because it won't be long in the future that all of these other games have to resort to the same things as WoW to keep their fanbases up.
    Last edited by Dessan; 2013-07-28 at 03:49 AM. Reason: Drunken typos... That I've still probably missed half of...

  7. #347
    Apart from being burnt out in general with the game having played for many years,

    Having to do dailies to get rep for gear earlier in the expansion and now having to do them to get coins for raids.

    Having to do LFR loads to gear up alts and do even more dailies on them each week.

    Still having to progress through normal to get to heroic modes, playing through essentially the same content twice with mostly bigger numbers gets boring especially when combined with doing the LFR version too on alts, would much rather heroic mode not require gear from normals but thats not gonna change. I want to clear the raids once through on hard like I would do a normal single player game.

    Having to do multiple tiers of LFR on alts for gear/legendary questline, LFR is annoying enough as it is but ended up doing so much of it this expansion to gear alts for actual raids for when they were needed or If I wanted to switch mains.

    Raids although mostly fun, the actual villains this expansion really haven't been that interesting to me like previous expansions because there has not been a "main" villain we are just getting bosses that we have little background/buildup compared to tbc or wrath, the Sha just don't live up to Illidan/LK.

  8. #348
    The Lightbringer Auxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEYR View Post
    Yea, they really do. Unless you like to lvl and then unsub.
    Last time I checked, LFR's and Dailies aren't necessary to raid.
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  9. #349
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    The End boss is my own faction leader. /facepalm

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Based on what I might ask? It strikes me that to have an opinion on the quality of that content one should partake in that content. It sounds like you're forum crusading.

    Understand I'm not pro lfr or anti lfr. I'm only pro lfr in a universe where raiding is all consuming. Well if raiding takes a back seat and you get 4 bosses every year or so then I'm fine with lfr going the way of the dinosaur. As long as we have big raid tiers with loads of bosses then LFR is here to stay and should stay.
    I dunno. I didn't get to see the inside of Naxx or Ulduar until after Cata dropped, and I only got to go in ToGC once with a PuG. I did get to farm ICC trash for rep rings, though, and then cleared 10/12 with the 30% buff.

    By contrast, I have seen every raid instance and downed every boss in MoP via LFR.

    I'll tell you which experience was WAY more epic, though - my WotLK one.

    I guess I just feel like Blizzard has gone on this little crusade of making content accessible to everyone, with the unintended consequence of producing content that isn't even worth accessing.

    I honestly feel like a scaling buff like ICC had is a way better solution than the nerfed mechanics in LFR that basically turn everything into tank and spank.

    I never used to be able to get my foot in the door of raids because being married, kids, grad school, you name it just isn't conducive to being in a raiding guild. But because content wasn't accessible, it was way more desirable. I always dreamed of seeing raids, which created something worth playing towards - maxing out all my drops from heroics, whatever I could get from rep, crafting, etc., watching strategy vids on TankSpot, and then finally getting a chance to get in the place and try my hand at it. It was an epic experience.

    You might be able to just chalk that all up to nostalgia, though.

  11. #351
    I found, and others in my guild, the solo instances to be a god awful experience. Something about them is just such a pain in the ass. They feel tuned to high and like im on a frickin rail, you have no choice but to execute the thing in the only way its designed. Open world is OPEN!!!! for a reason... so your not required to play like a dang turret section from one of the many Terrible shooters that have been made.

    I feel like LFR has belittled the meaningful nature raiding had in prior expansions. Why try and play well or get into a raiding guild, or even start a raid team within a guild, if you can click the "Find Me Loot" button and just faceroll content? I want to say it would work out better if gearing didn't involve LFR if you didn't want to use it, like if you could get LFR, or near LFR, level gear from heroics. The 5 man feels like it was replaced buy LFR and neither seem fun after a few weeks, then if you get into raiding your half way to burned out on raiding from having to gear up 70-80% of the way through LFR. Why not have a level 90 difficulty for instances, so that ALL instances for the expac have a pre 90 and post 90 difficulty, Then have heroic modes that feel meaningful through proper tuning and gear drops. The fact that heroics drop 1 epic from the final boss is really off putting to me, someone who first hit max level in wrath and enjoyed gearing up for the most part.

    Hope this thread gets a good looking over by the devs.

  12. #352
    I blame the departure from the games established style and lore... pandaria is too colorful and it's inhabitants too cartoony and cliche.

    I barely made it out of jade forest without canceling my account, the damn Hozen made me feel like i was playing a disney channel cartoon or something.

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  13. #353
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    Solo scenarios are an affront to the entire concept of wow. There should never be another one made.... EVER.

  14. #354
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    I dunno. I didn't get to see the inside of Naxx or Ulduar until after Cata dropped, and I only got to go in ToGC once with a PuG. I did get to farm ICC trash for rep rings, though, and then cleared 10/12 with the 30% buff.

    By contrast, I have seen every raid instance and downed every boss in MoP via LFR.

    I'll tell you which experience was WAY more epic, though - my WotLK one.

    I guess I just feel like Blizzard has gone on this little crusade of making content accessible to everyone, with the unintended consequence of producing content that isn't even worth accessing.

    I honestly feel like a scaling buff like ICC had is a way better solution than the nerfed mechanics in LFR that basically turn everything into tank and spank.

    I never used to be able to get my foot in the door of raids because being married, kids, grad school, you name it just isn't conducive to being in a raiding guild. But because content wasn't accessible, it was way more desirable. I always dreamed of seeing raids, which created something worth playing towards - maxing out all my drops from heroics, whatever I could get from rep, crafting, etc., watching strategy vids on TankSpot, and then finally getting a chance to get in the place and try my hand at it. It was an epic experience.

    You might be able to just chalk that all up to nostalgia, though.

    I think some of it is nostalgia but it's also just poor game design. Look you can only rely on keeping the carrot away from people for so long before they realize the trick and give up. Even in studies of mice the mice after awhile either give up or worse turn on the other mice. At some point you have to entertain people and provide your audience something to do. Making content that people won't participate in isn't keeping them entertained and I think you can make a pretty good argument it wasn't keeping people entertained in the past. People were entertained by getting to max lvl and the immersion of the experience (which is dead now regardless of what the develoeprs do). Then they hit level cap, saw what kind of a scam was going on and left. Their was just such a huge churn of players that you never noticed the people leaving left right and center.

    I mean you cite WOTLK but WOTLK had normal 10 man raids which were FAR more accessible than the current normal 10 man raids. In fact WOTLK was the beginning of accessible raiding content because more and more players hit max cap and needed to be entertained. I actually prefer the stacking buff to but normals are overtuned this expansion anyway and could use a stacking buff. The bosses themselves could also just use less mechanics period. Like if they had a few that hit hard it would be better I think then the current lob a barrage of shit at you.

    At least in cataclysm I could avoid raids entirely and still get good progression. Now theirs little way to avoid lfr, you get shoved into it at every opportunity and well fuck raiding. Honestly. I don't mean to be uncouth but seriously if they didn't spend so much time developing these raids and spent it in favor of other crap we'd have other crap to do that wasn't just recolors of already existing shit.

    I mean to an extent I understand the argument your trying to make but what it says to me is we want other avenues of progression that aren't raiding. That are better than what exists currently, that can award you all kinds of gear gear at par with what you get in raids and doesn't rely on being shoved into raiding. That's WOTLK. That's Cataclysm to. That's everything they tried to undermine in mists in favor of shoving you into lfr.

    I'm in favor of exclusive raids but only if raids are like 4 bosses and come once every 12 months. In other words if the development time and resources afforded to exclusive raids matches their accessibility in terms of player use then yea exclusive as hell. I doubt the people doing those raids will like waiting that long for new content though.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 04:14 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #355
    While I refuse to hop on the 'WoW is dying' bandwagon (pretty sure almost 8million subs still = Blizzard drowning in cash) I'd say the biggest missteps this expansion were probably alienation of alts, initial over-reliance on dailies and the relatively brutal difficulty of 'normal' 10man raids.

    Servers often thrived on 10man 'PuG raids' and this expansion pretty much killed those. Heart of Fear and Throne are/were extremely punishing in 10man and I know of an entire guild that pretty much mass-unsubbed because they just couldn't progress in the raids. I imagine others have as well. Flex raiding will be nice for those groups but I don't imagine that alone is going to bring people running back to the game. It almost feels like compensation more than a fix.

    I really like Mists: I have enjoyed it far more than Cataclysm. But they need to come out swinging at Blizzcon with whatever is the next expansion.

  16. #356
    The Lightbringer Auxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    This expansion wasn't "Wowish" at all. Call them pandaren till you're blue in the face, but they are still pandas.
    Mythology isn't "mythic" at all. Call them minotaur till you're blue in the face, but they are still cows.

    Yet, the mythology is fairly well used in gaming...
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  17. #357
    --LFR causing ppl to see content immediately
    --"Required" dailies
    --Lack of DUngeons
    --Scenarios being unpopular

    Those 4 things combined IMHO make up 99% of the reason behind people quitting, including me. I have not logged in for 4-5 MONTHS (Logged in 1x to kill the ToT endboss in LFR) I still have a few weeks left of unpaid subscriber time, so count me as one of the -1 subscribers in the next quarterly report or the one after.

    Knowing BLizz, theyll try to combat this loss by delaying LFR unlocks even longer than they do now. Didnt they space out the last LFR like 5-6 weeks? Pretty desperate thing to do instead of just fixing the problem altogether.
    Last edited by Trakanonn; 2013-07-28 at 04:14 AM.
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  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by El Plastico View Post
    Solo scenarios are an affront to the entire concept of wow. There should never be another one made.... EVER.
    And along came proving grounds...

  19. #359
    The Patient sixx's Avatar
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    Well in my humble opinion.. Making this game to focus so much on Raiding is what is wrong.

    Lets see how I put this. Lets suppose we have this new guy that started playing the game, he hits max lvl then he learns that the best part of the game is raiding, cool. Now after a couple of weeks he is able to raid LFR, he queues up and in less than a couple of days he is able to beat every single boss in the game. Granted is on the lowest difficulty(LFR), but for this guy that just jumped into the game, doesn't that give him the feeling that he just beat the game? Hell yeah it does. Why keep playing the game them? He already beat it. "Oh but you can get better gear and experience higher difficulties", well so is beaten anyways, he'll just unsub and probably resub when the next patch with the next raid hits. Is not like he'll have a hard time either re-gearing for that upcoming raid. Game is more accessible and easier that lets say on Monday the new raid hits, he resubs then and probably by Saturday he's already gear ready for that new raid.

    The game right now is designed in such a way that with little effort you can "beat the game". Once you beat the game the excuse left for you to keep playing is better gear and beating bigger difficulties. Same excuse Diablo3 haves for you to keep playing it and look at it, is not going that great for it either.

    People always leaves this game. Everyday someone cancels his sub for numerous different reasons, either because he no longer haves the time, he's moving on, personal issues etc etc. What made WoW grow was the new Players that came everyday as well replacing this Old players that left and in turn them being more than those that leave. Lets say 2 left, 6 came in. But today on new players can "beat the game" in couple of months and there is no incentive to keep them around playing that eventually they unsub as well.

    Think about it. Like every time a new patch hits, the game always experiences a wave of people resubbing, but then again, the game doesn't have incentives to kept them around that they will unsub again once they beat the game.

    In the past because it took longer time to even be ready to raid something, that time consuming design is what kept players around making the player leave new players ratio in favor of the new players.

    Don't misunderstand me though, I'm all for making a game accessible to more and more people. Is just that it slipped Blizzard that making an accessible game would create this problem of beating the game early feeling and then having nothing else to do. So how to solve this? Welp, there is a bucket of things you can do to try and patch this problem, but reality is no one really knows yet. Hopefully Blizzard can figure it out.


    PS.: Soz for such a crappy post, It could have being made better, but hopefully you'll understand it xD. Is really late here and my brain is tired

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I think some of it is nostalgia but it's also just poor game design. Look you can only rely on keeping the carrot away from people for so long before they realize the trick and give up. Even in studies of mice the mice after awhile either give up or worse turn on the other mice. At some point you have to entertain people and provide your audience something to do. Making content that people won't participate in isn't keeping them entertained and I think you can make a pretty good argument it wasn't keeping people entertained in the past. People were entertained by getting to max lvl and the immersion of the experience (which is dead now regardless of what the develoeprs do). Then they hit level cap, saw what kind of a scam was going on and left. Their was just such a huge churn of players that you never noticed the people leaving left right and center.

    I mean you cite WOTLK but WOTLK had normal 10 man raids which were FAR more accessible than the current normal 10 man raids. In fact WOTLK was the beginning of accessible raiding content because more and more players hit max cap and needed to be entertained. I actually prefer the stacking buff to but normals are overtuned this expansion anyway and could use a stacking buff. The bosses themselves could also just use less mechanics period. Like if they had a few that hit hard it would be better I think then the current lob a barrage of shit at you.
    I guess I was just perfectly happy being led along for 2 years . But then again, I LOVED the 5-mans that were available in WoTLK, I didn't mind doing dailies because I was engrossed in the story, and I got new content and could continue to progress my character via the new 5-mans that came out with each raid patch. By the way, I vastly prefer getting new 5-mans that drop higher ilvl gear than the ones that ship with the xpac to having LFR with neutered mechanics. That's what I did all throughout Cata, too - grind 5-mans; do dailies. And I had fun. I suppose that model just requires too much development time and budget spread over different forms of content.

    EDIT: After reading your last edit, I think we actually more or less are in favor of the same things
    Last edited by Vigilant; 2013-07-28 at 04:25 AM.

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