Page 11 of 60 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
21
... LastLast
  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Presumably he means that they assume that the raid will always have devotion aura for any single, really big, rare, raid-wide magical damage attacks, because of how easy it is to use compared to other similar cooldowns like PW:B, and... uh, spirit link totem? But that's a pretty damn specific and specialized niche, I gotta say. How many of those have we had in MoP? An event that's so rare that entire raids (HoF the obvious one) don't contain a single fight where it's used is the ability that they "need to balance around"?

    What does that even really mean? Does it mean that when they design encouners with periodic, massive raid-wide damage, that they don't account for other healer cooldowns? We're meant to heal through every nuclear inferno, and all rampages, and so on, using no cooldowns and only devotion aura? Obviously not... how can he even say that?

    When is it "very good", anyway? Aside from dark animus, I can't think of a single place where I would consider it "very good", outside of situations where other cooldowns (like PW:B) are much better (such as megaera or twins or iron quon).

    It's also dodging the part where it's a paladin cooldown, not a hpaladin one, but there you go.
    I can think of two abilities where I consider DA to be the far superior cooldown.
    Dark Animus - Interrupting Jolt
    Lei Shen - Thunderstruck
    Arguably Jin'rokh Lightning Storm aswell if someone plays bad and soaks many balls in a short interval, a Healing CD won't save you there while a DA might.

    Also in a 25m raid you want a mix of both damage prevention and healing cds which is why I find it silly that Palas are afraid of losing their raidspot. I find it the most optimal to have 2-3 DAs(obviously there are exceptions on fights like Megaera where you 100% stack, but that's not the case in SoO). Prot Pala brings 1 of these, then maybe you have 1 ret. But let's be honest, who stacks melees anyways? A caster is almost always better, so you need the DA from a holy pala.

    I do agree though that DA should prevent physical damage too, but then Barrier needs to be buffed abit to compensate, since it requires people to stand in it while DA doesn't.
    Last edited by fneelis; 2013-07-31 at 01:01 PM.
    Sonie <Method> - Twisting Nether EU
    SonieTV @ Twitter

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by fneelis View Post
    I do agree though that DA should prevent physical damage too, but then Barrier needs to be buffed abit to compensate, since it requires people to stand in it while DA doesn't.
    Well they can do it via glyph. Your DA now prevents physical instead of magical damage. Switch it in and out based on fight.

    Barrier is already stronger isn't it to compensate for stacked? Plus disc has spirit shell for spread.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Well they can do it via glyph. Your DA now prevents physical instead of magical damage. Switch it in and out based on fight.

    Barrier is already stronger isn't it to compensate for stacked? Plus disc has spirit shell for spread.
    It's only 5% stronger, that's not enough to make up for it not to require people to stack if DA was both phys and magic.
    Sonie <Method> - Twisting Nether EU
    SonieTV @ Twitter

  4. #204
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Liverpool, England
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by fneelis View Post
    It's only 5% stronger, that's not enough to make up for it not to require people to stack if DA was both phys and magic.
    Chance's are it would be small change, they do have various other abilities for damage prevention. But on your previous statement about paladin's fear of losing a raid spot. What you're saying is a holy paladin is guaranteed to be brought mainly for that DA, how is that any better than say shamans being a mana battery? You would more likely see an extra ret than a holy paladin (if people are worried about melee/ranged balance, most likely the melee either have a healing spec or a geared char which does) if they go live unviable for high end raiding if certain people are adamant on 3 DA's minimum. But that is in 25's only, it's a tad worse in 10's when it comes to fitting everything in.
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-07-31 at 01:38 PM.

  5. #205
    Barrier doesn't need a buff, because the disc has 2 raid cooldowns anyway - Spirit Shell.

  6. #206
    I don't think that there's any real reason that Devo Aura shouldn't be allowed to affect all damage. Barrier is 25% for 12 seconds and DA is 20% for 6 seconds. That gives Barrier the potential to prevent more than twice as much damage as Devo Aura because it lasts twice as long. Of course, this would have to be on situations where there is ticking raid damage over time (i.e. Megaera rampage) rather than damage reduction of a single large hit (i.e. Dark Animus jolt), but I still think the extra duration and 5% extra damage reduction on Barrier is enough that Devo Aura could be changed to affect all damage without Barrier needing to be buffed to compensate.

    That said, I think they probably should look at buffing the damage reduction cooldowns. For Devo Aura to prevent as much damage as the Tranq type cooldowns heal for on average on a typical 25H raid ability (using Megaera rampage as an example), Devo Aura would need to be 40% damage reduction or would need to be extended to a 12 second duration (or maybe 30% reduction for 9 seconds). Of course, you can argue that damage reduction is better than healing, so it maybe shouldn't be balanced at quite 1:1. However, it's clear that the damage reduction cooldowns probably should be buffed.

    I also don't think not buffing them and compensating through throughput buffs is a good approach. It sucks when one healer has a weaker raid cooldown than another healer, and burst cooldown based throughout is worth a lot more than passive "meter padding" throughput.

  7. #207
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    That said, I think they probably should look at buffing the damage reduction cooldowns. For Devo Aura to prevent as much damage as the Tranq type cooldowns heal for on average on a typical 25H raid ability (using Megaera rampage as an example), Devo Aura would need to be 40% damage reduction or would need to be extended to a 12 second duration (or maybe 30% reduction for 9 seconds). Of course, you can argue that damage reduction is better than healing, so it maybe shouldn't be balanced at quite 1:1. However, it's clear that the damage reduction cooldowns probably should be buffed.
    I think that a 40% raidwide damage reduction is insane and if anything it means the throughput cooldowns are too strong and need to be nerfed.

    ---

    Also, I don't think some Developers get that "30% using this L45 talent, 30% using that L45 talent" is simply not an achievable goal and I think this is partly why our design has been so in flux and shitty this PTR cycle.

    No matter what any throughput related talent tier (whether healing or DPS) will always have a required choice on any specific fight. This goes double if the talent tier is a rotation-based tier (like L45) and not a more cooldown-oriented tier (like our L90 talents). On Patchwerk fights you're not going to make "30% of Shadow Priests" take FDCL (unless it was overtuned to when 100% took it) so here you're not going to make "30% take this, 30% that" when it's obvious that one is superior for a given situation.

    If Aladya and other similar top paladins are all taking a talent, chances are it won't be "30%" taking another, unless said 30% of population is just terrible.

  8. #208
    It's definitely not easy to balance all these cooldowns, I think cooldowns are already out of hand.

    But I definitely feel that DA being limited to magic damage feels very outdated.
    Sonie <Method> - Twisting Nether EU
    SonieTV @ Twitter

  9. #209
    Devs seem to think that they can somehow manipulate the player bases' talent preferences, to some magical even split between the 3 talents.

    What they don't seem to get is they're working on an MMO - that's a social interactive game - where if the next guy/girl is taking a talent it's natural even for a new casual player to ask 'why?' and then probably do the same if they heard its good. A week later everyone has the same talent as it's the FOTM.

    Rather than try to act like some communist planned economy they should just be happy if 1 talent is FOTM for most bosses and move on...

  10. #210
    I think the developers never did realize that there was never a proper justification for scaling healing cooldowns.

    Why does, say for example, Divine Hymn need to heal 2.4 times the number of targets in 25 man when there are already 2-3 times the number of healers in said content?

    The entire point of running 5-6 healers for 25 man already means there are 2-3 times the number of healing cooldowns to begin with.

    So not only do 25 man have more healers, but now the throughput of 5-6 healers in 25 man is equivalent to that of more than 8-9 healers.

  11. #211
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    1,819
    All scaling the cooldowns did was make it easier to drop healers in 25m really, especially factoring in that we have dps cooldowns also scaling for 25m.

  12. #212
    I never NEVER understood the though of 'if the majority of the holy paladin takes this talent, then it's a failure on our part'
    If you look at Holy Avenger, the majority of raiding paladins take this talent....so how does it not fall into the same category.
    I think it's just ridiculous that they're changing our playstyle mid expac based off of one talent.
    I've tried both SH and SS, and I honestly hate it. I really don't like spamming EF either. Honestly, I really don't like our playstyle one bit...and I can understand them wanting to change the talent if that's WHY they were changing it...but it's not.

  13. #213
    It's certainly a legitimate issue that damage reduction cooldowns scale 150% from 10 to 25, but Tranq type cooldowns don't. Maybe what they should have done was nerf all Tranq cooldowns by 60% in 10 mans instead of buffing them 150% in 25 mans when they made the change to begin with. They probably went the other way around because of the amount of "you made me feel weak" complaints that would cause.

    I also think that raid cooldowns should be removed from all DPS specs. It makes sense for tanks and healers to have raid cooldowns, because tanks and healers are raid support roles. It does not make any sense for DPS to have cooldowns; it causes too many problems with raid stacking and raid viability and impinges too much on the value that healers bring to the raid. Rallying Cry should be Prot Warrior only, Smoke Bomb should be reverted to not be a raid cooldown, Tranq should be removed from DPS druids, Devo Aura should be taken from Ret Pallies, Vampiric Embrace should be removed from the game or converted to a personal survival cooldown, and they never should have made HTT baseline for all 3 specs instead of just making it a Resto ability.

  14. #214
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    I also think that raid cooldowns should be removed from all DPS specs. It makes sense for tanks and healers to have raid cooldowns, because tanks and healers are raid support roles. It does not make any sense for DPS to have cooldowns; it causes too many problems with raid stacking and raid viability and impinges too much on the value that healers bring to the raid. Rallying Cry should be Prot Warrior only, Smoke Bomb should be reverted to not be a raid cooldown, Tranq should be removed from DPS druids, Devo Aura should be taken from Ret Pallies, Vampiric Embrace should be removed from the game or converted to a personal survival cooldown, and they never should have made HTT baseline for all 3 specs instead of just making it a Resto ability.
    Most DPS players I know would rather have some extra raid utility, right now the role feels too unimportant as is.

  15. #215
    Comparing raid cds like devotion aura to raid cds like DH, HTT, Revival and Tranq is comparing apples to oranges.

    The former reduces the amount of healing you potentially have to do.

    The latter directly increases your healing output for a stipulated period of time on targets who need it the most.

    The former is blind and all-encompassing.

    The latter is selective and hits the people who need the healing the most.

    This means that, while both types of cooldowns have many overlapping situations in which they can be cast, both of them are cast for vastly different reasons and fulfill different purposes.

    Cooldowns which heal should be balanced under one unique category by themselves.

    Just as cooldowns which reduce damage by a % should be balanced under one unique category by themselves.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Most DPS players I know would rather have some extra raid utility, right now the role feels too unimportant as is.
    ...the only role (DPS) that actually kills the boss feels unimportant? /boggle

  17. #217
    The more common complaint I personally hear from DPS is that it's discouraging to do less damage than tanks, which I 100% agree with their sentiment regarding that. I'm pretty indifferent to whether dps specs should have "raid cooldowns" and/or "utility", I think it can work both ways, but they definitely shouldn't have raid cooldowns as strong as healer/tank cooldowns.

  18. #218
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Liverpool, England
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Comparing raid cds like devotion aura to raid cds like DH, HTT, Revival and Tranq is comparing apples to oranges.

    The former reduces the amount of healing you potentially have to do.

    The latter directly increases your healing output for a stipulated period of time on targets who need it the most.

    The former is blind and all-encompassing.

    The latter is selective and hits the people who need the healing the most.

    This means that, while both types of cooldowns have many overlapping situations in which they can be cast, both of them are cast for vastly different reasons and fulfill different purposes.

    Cooldowns which heal should be balanced under one unique category by themselves.

    Just as cooldowns which reduce damage by a % should be balanced under one unique category by themselves.
    Many overlapping situations? Healing cooldowns overlap more into DR CD territory than the opposite. There are very few situations where a DR CD is superior to having a healing cooldown on standby. You may try your best to treat them differently and think they are cast for different purposes, but they aren't, they are cast to make sure the raid doesn't die to whatever ability is being cast. You're splitting them into different categories by yourself and justifying doing so with the difference in mechanics between the two. If you want balance, you do so through comparison of the two not treating them as separate entities. Otherwise one group will complain that theirs is not as powerful as the other, a balance of power is required.

  19. #219
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    1,819
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    It's certainly a legitimate issue that damage reduction cooldowns scale 150% from 10 to 25, but Tranq type cooldowns don't. Maybe what they should have done was nerf all Tranq cooldowns by 60% in 10 mans instead of buffing them 150% in 25 mans when they made the change to begin with. They probably went the other way around because of the amount of "you made me feel weak" complaints that would cause.
    I don't agree that it was an issue. Devo for the most part still prevented less damage than the not scaled healing cooldowns healed, but they both had their advantages. Most of the complaints healers with healing cooldowns really just stemmed from, "The DR cooldowns prevent damage and that snips my heals!". Seriously even when the scaling change was announced healers were bitching saying, "This is a buff to Devo and barrier because that is more healing they can snip".

    All the scaling the cooldowns did was bring about more balance issues.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-31 at 05:13 PM.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by amillati1 View Post
    Devs seem to think that they can somehow manipulate the player bases' talent preferences, to some magical even split between the 3 talents.

    What they don't seem to get is they're working on an MMO - that's a social interactive game - where if the next guy/girl is taking a talent it's natural even for a new casual player to ask 'why?' and then probably do the same if they heard its good. A week later everyone has the same talent as it's the FOTM.

    Rather than try to act like some communist planned economy they should just be happy if 1 talent is FOTM for most bosses and move on...
    The reason why they are doing this every patch is to increase the "subs". They have to change something to make the community (us) discuss about it and stir up the forums. That is how they can maintain the subs, even though it's going down slowly.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •