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  1. #221
    Has anyone on the PTR dared to try going Crit > Haste > Mastery with the Legendary cloak and EF?

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathimis View Post
    Has anyone on the PTR dared to try going Crit > Haste > Mastery with the Legendary cloak and EF?
    Under what numbers are you suggesting Paladins go with that stat priority? (no one will try stacking crit)

  3. #223
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Under what numbers are you suggesting Paladins go with that stat priority? (no one will try stacking crit)
    Pretty sure he is just asking if anyone has tried it, rather than suggesting it.

  4. #224
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jincuteguy View Post
    The reason why they are doing this every patch is to increase the "subs". They have to change something to make the community (us) discuss about it and stir up the forums. That is how they can maintain the subs, even though it's going down slowly.
    Been more than one person here that have said they are considering, if not already, ending their sub because of these changes.

    I think it's having the opposite effect to what you said.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    I also think that raid cooldowns should be removed from all DPS specs. It makes sense for tanks and healers to have raid cooldowns, because tanks and healers are raid support roles. It does not make any sense for DPS to have cooldowns; it causes too many problems with raid stacking and raid viability and impinges too much on the value that healers bring to the raid. Rallying Cry should be Prot Warrior only, Smoke Bomb should be reverted to not be a raid cooldown, Tranq should be removed from DPS druids, Devo Aura should be taken from Ret Pallies, Vampiric Embrace should be removed from the game or converted to a personal survival cooldown, and they never should have made HTT baseline for all 3 specs instead of just making it a Resto ability.

    As good as it perhaps sounds this won't make a difference at all. People will just stack classes with good personal cooldowns to survive certain abilities. Like rogues with feint/cloak.


    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Also, I don't think some Developers get that "30% using this L45 talent, 30% using that L45 talent" is simply not an achievable goal and I think this is partly why our design has been so in flux and shitty this PTR cycle.

    No matter what any throughput related talent tier (whether healing or DPS) will always have a required choice on any specific fight. This goes double if the talent tier is a rotation-based tier (like L45) and not a more cooldown-oriented tier (like our L90 talents). On Patchwerk fights you're not going to make "30% of Shadow Priests" take FDCL (unless it was overtuned to when 100% took it) so here you're not going to make "30% take this, 30% that" when it's obvious that one is superior for a given situation.

    If Aladya and other similar top paladins are all taking a talent, chances are it won't be "30%" taking another, unless said 30% of population is just terrible.
    I wonder what the talent percentages are across all level 90 holy paladins for that Tier actually are. Maybe i could understand their reasoning more if it was something absurd like 99%. Because i do come across paladins without the talent in LFR. And it shouldn't make a difference to begin with. They should be changing SH/SS because those choices are to weak when it comes to the high end side of PVE/PVP. And if they can't balance it then something else is wrong with the spec(mastery hint hint).

    The common casual has 2 options in my eyes: 1. Copy paste a build like EVERY other MMO/MOBA/RTS/etc. Every game has optimal builds and so does wow on forums and various sites. 2. Or they don't care enough and pick whatever they like in game. Over time they might see EF being suggest by another player and switch over or they stay with SH/SS(well currently probably SS).
    A lot of returning paladins from before Dragon Soul are still in the spam HL/DL/FL/HS mode and only figure out the rotation has changed after their healing is bad in say dungeons and other group activities.

    But really you can't balance a class at that "level". And if your trying to your going to end up burning yourself by creating something either stupidly OP or absurdly weak. Balance in my eyes should be done with players of equal skill/knowledge. Sure some fights might favor specific classes/specs. But overall there should be a balance you want to find. In the end it doesn't matter if 99% of the players take EF. Because if you can't balance it on the top end you won't do much better at the lower end either.

  6. #226
    Healing cleave trinket healed for 9mil - %11 on Galakras, sleep on that
    <CATASTROPHE> Sanktora

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonic View Post
    Healing cleave trinket healed for 9mil - %11 on Galakras, sleep on that
    mine only healed for 5mil - 7% but yea it had 80% overhealing. I imagine it would be insane for malkorok.

  8. #228
    First point, I don't agree with taking raid utility away from dps. If they have no purpose other than to dps then there's never a reason not to pick off the top dps specs and stack as many as you can, running down the list until the raid is full. Let's be real honest, how many warriors would see progression with no utility?

    The idea splitting any talent tree 33/33/33 is asinine. The whole idea of the current talent system was to be flexible so we could change to optimal specs per boss on the fly. Some talent tiers are immensely successful at this like the HoP/US/Clemency tier, or the LH/HP/ES tier. Some seem sort of personal choice but impact almost nothing like the level 30 control tier (from a raiding perspective).

    So the failure in the SH/EF/SS tier is that there's no clear niche for each talent and a corresponding fight, fight-type or mechanic-type that favors each one. If the fight is aura damage then it's good to be able to spam blanket healing which is the current SH model. If the raid is spread out and only a few people are taking damage at a time, I would argue that EF should fit there but it's currently too weak to be viable so we're back to SH. If the tanks are getting trucked to the exclusion of other raid damage then SS should be the right thing, but the proc is weirdly unpredictable and even so it might be good in that situation but I don't really remember the last time that really happened.

    I do not agree that we should be split in thirds based on personal preference in that tier. I do agree that we should be able to see situations where each talent is useful. That's what's missing.

  9. #229
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    I do not agree that we should be split in thirds based on personal preference in that tier.
    If this is in fact the logic behind all the changes, just....yeah...

  10. #230
    Greg Street
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    @Ady_Mx If you take EF, we're kind of okay with that. If every Holy paladin still does, then I agree we haven't fixed the problem.

    Greg Street
    ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @ykiigor_ Not sure you can speak for 95% of the community, but if around 30% chose SH, that would be just about ideal.
    That was my takeaway from this and he's mentioned before that the percentage of players taking any given talent is problematic for them. I think it's fine if 95% of players take one talent for some fights but 95% take a different one for another fight. That's flexibility and fun.

  11. #231
    What talent were you guys running on testing today?

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Some talent tiers are immensely successful at this like the HoP/US/Clemency tier, or the LH/HP/ES tier.
    HP / LH / ES isn't particularly successful I'd argue. ES is 0% use. HP is probably 80-90% use. They have made no attempt at all to make ES usable for Holy which goes against this 30/30/30 argument.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    HP / LH / ES isn't particularly successful I'd argue. ES is 0% use. HP is probably 80-90% use. They have made no attempt at all to make ES usable for Holy which goes against this 30/30/30 argument.
    Over all paladins ES does see use. It's not useful for Holy outside of Tsulong, granted. But that there are situations when each is useful and especially between LH and HP it's pretty easy to discern when you might want one over the other. Even in some fights in ToT there are logs with players having both HP and LH. 95% of the time Hand of Purity isn't taken, but when it is it's very good.

  14. #234
    The whole logic behind devs wanting roughly equal preference for talent choices is flawed..

    There are 3 variables:

    - 3 class specs to choose (each of which need to have some use for the 3 talents in a tier)

    - bosses have different abilities making different talents better (eg Tsulong u do actually use ES)

    - healers have different assignments

    ----------

    trying to balance talents so that they are all useful to all 3 specs on all bosses is an impossible task.

    they should focus on making talents each very good at what they do and then just have boss mechanics make players switch talents more

    ----------

    at the moment in a tier you normally have 1 'talent' and 2 'impediments' - ie. talents that are just useless in almost every situation.

    make all 3 talents so good at what they are meant to do (AE healing, ST healing, shorten CD etc) so u have something big to give up in order to get something big in a different area

  15. #235
    The original idea behind this new talent system is forgotten by everyone. Not sure why I keep hearing flexible so you can change to optimal talents between bosses. Not even close to how Blizzard stated originally quite the opposite.

    The original idea was to make a new talent system that was newb friendly first off. They didn't like how bad players were not speccing into mandatory spec talents they needed to perform specifically missing out on new key abilities.

    Secondly they didn't like how little choice there was. They said there were cookie cutter builds that everyone, well everyone besides the newbs above obviously, just copied from a website. They wanted some engaging decisions being made.

    The first reason is why they move certain key talents baseline like the resto shamen one we reference so much here. The second reason is why they want to see an even distribution of talents selected for us and everyone else. Now I think the reasoning they have behind deciding what talents a spec needs, balancing issues, how each one should feel, and the way they should play ..ect is completely retarded for the most part just like everyone else. Yet you have to give them credit for being consistant at least with the talent systems design. Or maybe it is utter persistance in the face of so much failure.

    It was never designed to be completely optimal. Nothing really is, it is designed for good enough to do the job. Well just thought I could clear that up and enlighten some. The talent system is still a horrible failure. Some talents are still mandatory for the spec for every fight and now there is a whole new section of mandatory talents for this fight or that fight. To top that off it is undeniably much more complex then the original. Now talents change when your holy or protection or retribution. You can mouse over a talent that takes up the length of my screen in description like reading a page from a book.

    Whatever, it is, what it is.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by amillati1 View Post
    trying to balance talents so that they are all useful to all 3 specs on all bosses is an impossible task.
    I agree with this. I know they were trying to simplify things but, especially for hybrids, they should have separate talent trees. For 6.0 I hope they go this route. Trying to balance for once spec without ruining or OPing another is too difficult the way they're currently set up.

  17. #237
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I agree with this. I know they were trying to simplify things but, especially for hybrids, they should have separate talent trees. For 6.0 I hope they go this route. Trying to balance for once spec without ruining or OPing another is too difficult the way they're currently set up.
    For what it's worth some of the best 90 talent tiers in my opinion are hybrid-oriented talents.

    There are a lot of actual choices from the talent trees, just it's a bit delusional to think that you'll have a 33/333/33, and definitely striving for that impossible goal is not worth ruining the talents themselves.

  18. #238
    Here is my Solution to the 5.4 Changes for Pally Talents with numbers to show their effect:

    -LoD does 20% more baseline healing.

    -Eternal Flame is Baseline for Holy and replaces Word of Glory. Eternal flame does NOT apply Illuminated healing.

    -Selfless Healer: Holy Judgement costs same mana as Holy Shock and Heals 1 target withing 15 yards of the target for the same as Holy Shock (no +25% crit bonus). Holy: Selfless healer does not reduce mana cost of heals.

    -Eternal Flame: Has Been replaced with a new talent named "Buff my Specials" and increases the healing of Light of Dawn, Eternal Flame/Word of Glory, Holy Prism, Light's Hammer, Stay of Execution by 25%.

    -Sacred Shield: As is but shield ticks scale with mastery.

    Here is the break down of those changes for a 551 ilvl pally with Might, Kings, Flask, Food with gearing setup Spirit > Mastery > Haste > Crit:



    Here is what the PTR looks now:



    First off I want to say if you look at the comparison you will see that my proposed changes buff max output by about 10% or 2% over the Selfless Healer no Spirit Build. Since the EF/Illuminated healing nerf is about 6-9% nerf this "buff" basically reverses the nerf.
    Secondly if you look at the HPS and the MPS you will see all of these changes are within 1% of each other. Some fights will favor a talent over another but overall they are pretty similar.

    Thirdly I think making EF baseline holy makes sense in terms of making healing more interesting. EF can heal for more than LoD but it wont roll shields but they are close. So it will lend it self to using LoD when there is raid damage going out, or about to go out for shields, but you will want to keep EF rolling on the tanks and it makes WoG not feel like shit when it over heals because you know at least you get the hot. Neither is OP over the other and lends itself up to making a decision on when to use each heal.

    4thly you will see sacred shield becomes more worth it because both mastery and haste help it and it isnt OP.

    5thly selfless healer now requires spirit like the other specs but now Judgment is a smart heal so we dont feel worthless casting it. And with the EF change it makes our finisher choices more interesting while doing the rotation.

    6thly the replacement for EF that boosts the tier 90 talents plus our HP healing finishers will work for all specs but not be overpowered for healing. Basically it keeps our current rotation and play style and will heal for a good amount. People that want to add SS or SH can do so and gain some versatility but overall similar Output and mana cost.

    In closing, it isn't perfect and the numbers might need to be tweaked when balanced with other classes but easily adjusted by just changing the base healing of LoD/EF/WoG.

    It is not too late for Blizzard to have its IM change and not result in a nerf and allow for interesting heal choices EF/WoG and tier 45 talent changes.
    Last edited by bouchbagette; 2013-07-31 at 10:20 PM.
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  19. #239
    I've been whining for a while that EF should be baseline but I have a slightly thought on the tier itself with zero math to back me up.

    A pally friend of mine suggested that everything in that tier should cost holy power. I thought about it and when you look at those three talents we have one holy power generator in SH, one spender in EF and a random bonus skill with SS. As we have proven over and over again this expansion holy power generation > all. We saw it in T14 with the PvP 4pc, T14/15 with the T14 tier 4pc and we're seeing it again with SH in T16 ptr.

    If the talents in that tier each are functionally the same be they generators, spenders or new then that seems much easier to balance. Leave EF or make EF also effect LoD, make the shield strength of SS be effected by HP, and have SH do something, no idea. I'm not a game designer.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I never NEVER understood the though of 'if the majority of the holy paladin takes this talent, then it's a failure on our part'
    If you look at Holy Avenger, the majority of raiding paladins take this talent....so how does it not fall into the same category.
    I think it's just ridiculous that they're changing our playstyle mid expac based off of one talent.
    I've tried both SH and SS, and I honestly hate it. I really don't like spamming EF either. Honestly, I really don't like our playstyle one bit...and I can understand them wanting to change the talent if that's WHY they were changing it...but it's not.

    Not for nothing, but "I don't like the playstyle" is a perfectly valid reason to change classes. Not saying you should, but just throwing it on the table. Why be miserable and just go through the motions for 6-8 months doing something you like to do in a manner that you can't stand? It ruins the experience.

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