[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Deleted]

The 48.6k required m5 isn't happening

[mcbubble]

The 48.6k required m5 isn't happening

Aladya - what are you referring to here?

[nightfalls]

Aladya - what are you referring to here?

He's referring to Kolori's Haste (and 16k spirit) Build. It does some amount of healing but requires 48.6k mp5.

[Deleted]

Yeah that's the problem with haste, it's too mana intensive, but just to clarify one thing for the people wondering the required mp5 I posted is the total regen needed to sustain the rotation indefinitely in an environment where there is 0 movement and you cast non-stop without any other spell than SS(for the SS builds). That is obviously not possible on live and the required mp5 is much lower. Also we have mana tide, Divine Plea, Hymn on Hope etc..


Edit: perhaps a better way to represent the mana usage would of been in % eg the haste build needs 18% more regen than the mastery build.

[bouchbagfett]

Nice chart. Here is what I get out of it:

1. Dropping 4k spirit grants you 10k hps for hr-hr-hs-LoD rotation.
2. Haste scales great with EF, good with SS, makes mana costs quite high.
3. SH has the best versatility in that you can move to a 135k rotation but the 128k rotation is really sustainable. To hit the 146k peak you are increasing mana cost by 50%.

I am no fan of SH. I would buy into it if judgement was a single target holy prism but... What are your overheal %'s on IH, LoD, EF ticks, and SS?

Also using holy prism does lower the mana per second by adding a mana free gcd once per 20.

[Deleted]

What are your overheal %'s on IH, LoD, EF ticks, and SS?

IH - 15%, LoD 40%, EF 50%, SS 40%. This is as i said based on 25 man Flex mode testing so kind of limited to just a few attempts per boss.

Also using holy prism does lower the mana per second by adding a mana free gcd once per 20.

Yes but on 25 man Light's Hammer is also viable.

I am no fan of SH.

What I hate about it is that the rotation is faster than the HS cooldown so 10% of the time you are waiting for HS and 25% of the time you are casting judgement, that means that you spend 35% of the time not healing. I also hate the fact that it does no damage, they should make it so that when you cast judgment on a target your next HS does damage to it even when used to heal.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the numbers this is very interesting.

The numbers look a lot closer than before, i'm surprised that the haste EF build is doing so much hps but i guess its going to be pretty damn near impossible to sustain on progress fights that tend to be rather long.

SH seems to be doing rather well as well, now i'm not a big fan of the rotation that i find extremely boring and mindless but i still might just take it if things stay the same.


Someting that nobody has disscused yet is how horrible SH builds are at tank healing on very hard hitting bosses. We tried garrosh on the PTR the other night and unfortunately had to 2 heal it since we were short of healers and i just felt completely useless in P1 since keeping the tank alive with the normal rotation was just impossible. i Basically had to use everything and it still was very difficult to keep him up.

What i'm basically saying is that the SH build feels very unflexible overall if you want to have good numbers, anything from a dispel to just healing up someone quickly really takes a toll on your mana pool and your hps(if you've done the 3rd fight of SoO where you need to heal the panda npcs you know what i mean)

[Sellinz]

Just curious what you were using in place of the Amp trinket in the 'without amp trinket' data

[xiloclipse]

I wonder how significant the breakpoints are for EF in your table Kolori. Assuming they haven't changed, you're only off by 500 points on your EF mastery build. I would think that the extra tics would be a significant part of the value haste has for EF. Although I understand you're trying to offer a viewpoint on different extremes, I wonder if hitting the next haste breakpoint on the pure mastery build would be beneficial.

[Simulacrum]

Here are the numbers for the current ptr build. I crossed off the rotations for which certain builds are inappropriate. The effective healing numbers are obviously based on the %overhealing I assigned each spell and I used the 4 bosses that were open on Flex mode(25 man) as reference. Once I get more logs i will balance it more(logs from live are totally useless).
You can see the stats used for each build on the right.

...

That sure makes SS look like a pointless talent to take with a heavy mastery build? The difference between using it and just ignoring it entirely barely registers. Even for heavy haste it is small.

[Deleted]

What I hate about it is that the rotation is faster than the HS cooldown so 10% of the time you are waiting for HS and 25% of the time you are casting judgement, that means that you spend 35% of the time not healing. I also hate the fact that it does no damage, they should make it so that when you cast judgment on a target your next HS does damage to it even when used to heal.

Would J-HR-HS-LOD-CS-J-HR-HS-LOD-CS-HR-HS-LOD-CS-LOD work maybe? (not sure if at all viable especially as cs can miss, just throwing it out there)

edit: most interested in if you'd need far less spirit as i know it'd do less base hps

[Deleted]

That sure makes SS look like a pointless talent to take with a heavy mastery build? The difference between using it and just ignoring it entirely barely registers. Even for heavy haste it is small.

The overhealing assigned to SS is way too high. That spell needs to have 0 overhealing something that will not happen on the first 4 bosses in flex but will happen on say Dark Shaman or Nazgrim. As an occasional talent(much like Hand of Purity, Execution Sentence) you shouldn't expect great results on other fights.

@Mana. Its still 48.6k mana/5secs when it matters, you're not asked to dance around during Megaera's Rampage or Ra-den's last phase. Mana Tide won't do much when shamans won't gear for spirit because of Healing Rain's power, Hymns are worth more the fact that you gain 15% mana for the duration and Divine Plea at 16k spirit regenerates 64k mana.
#Pray for permanent metagem/ Kalecgos blue buff?

[rohendar]

One thing I'm missing from those numbers is SH with full Haste build. Even if this was considered a bad way to go, would have been nice to see the numbers.

[Thumbtacks]

I've never seen theorycrafting in action. This is exciting.

Dumb question from a dumb healer. At higher levels of play do you just ignore Beacon entirely? Low level dungeons I like using it because it makes me feel like a healing wizard (especially glyphed)

[Lucyrotten]

I've never seen theorycrafting in action. This is exciting.

Dumb question from a dumb healer. At higher levels of play do you just ignore Beacon entirely? Low level dungeons I like using it because it makes me feel like a healing wizard (especially glyphed)

Absolutely not. I will beacon the active tank for most of most encounters but you can swap your beacon around to frostbite targets, I use it to help with diffusion adds or helm on lei shen, any debuff target benefits from a beacon if the tank doesn't NEED it. It's a integral part of the class through the highest levels.

I don't always glyph it though since we have a bunch of good glyphs and we're adding HoSac glyph in 5.4 so not sure I'll have room for it.

[Taygete]

One thing I'm missing from those numbers is SH with full Haste build. Even if this was considered a bad way to go, would have been nice to see the numbers.

I'm curious about this too. Though it looks like that wont be the direction we're going in... blech.

[Linnea]

"If by bottom you mean HPS, isn't the EF nerf like < 5% HPS? Doesn't sound very harsh." - GC
GC actually thinks that the nerf to eternal flame, not proccing our mastery, is a less than 5% nerf to our total healing. What world is he living in?

[Floopa]

"If by bottom you mean HPS, isn't the EF nerf like < 5% HPS? Doesn't sound very harsh." - GC
GC actually thinks that the nerf to eternal flame, not proccing our mastery, is a less than 5% nerf to our total healing. What world is he living in?

Are you sure he doesn't mean after the buffs to the EF HoT (which are definitely noticable)?

[Kyuuseishu]

The tweet is old, he tweeted it before the recent buffs to EF and Holy Insight. But, many challenged him mainly Aladya, couple of the spreadsheets that have been done point to the value being higher.

[Floopa]

The tweet is old, he tweeted it before the recent buffs to EF and Holy Insight. But, many challenged him mainly Aladya, couple of the spreadsheets that have been done point to the value being higher.

Fair enough, but maybe he was working from internal builds? Not saying he's incorrect - I just think saying GC is "living in his own world" doesn't really add anything to a conversation. Insults rarely do. What's important is that the Paladin position in 10 mans seems fine, maybe good, possibly really good. How they perform in 25 mans has yet to be seen.