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  1. #801
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    EDIT: I apologise if that came across as hostile, its 3am and I'm quite sleep deprived >.<

    EDIT: This information was incorrect so I've removed it just incase it causes confusion.
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-08-23 at 09:18 AM.

  2. #802
    I don't get it. Did they change Holy Radiance? If not we are still going to heal a crapton of targets. Each HR tick will generate another 30% tick from GoAK. Then the base HR ticks transfer to beacon. Hopefully the GoAK 30% ticks do not transfer to beacon. Since it's the guardian doing the heals i'm assuming it doesn't. Haven't really looked at this.

    Why didn't they just straight up give us a 30% buff and 10% haste to get rid of the lag issues. Yeah i know it still sucks balls. But if it's such an issue get rid of the damn pet. Who really cares about all the temporary pets. Half the time the fucker is blocking my sight(i'm a dwarf...)

  3. #803
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    If the datamined version is correct, it is absolutely terrible for being on a 5 minute.
    I think it "might" be 130% not 30% just from the way it used to work, but the wording on the cooldown is terrible for describing a mechanic that itself is also terrible. So... hence why I said "scrap and remake" which I think most of us agree they should do.

    It sucks that mechanics changes are happening so late but I think it's not bad if it is indeed to fix input lag (which may be why the patch was delayed in the first place, which is a justifiable reason in my books).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    EDIT: I apologise if that came across as hostile, its 3am and I'm quite sleep deprived >.<
    I post on sleep deprivation all the time, and hence end up coming across as hostile all the time, oh well, don't think most take it as an excuse :\

  4. #804
    Is anyone else finding Sacred Shield to be pretty on par with Eternal Flame? I did a few tests between EF and SS and didn't find my HPS to be changing when I took either one - it stayed pretty much the same between the two.

  5. #805
    220% max output nerf to Goak, for 25 man, nice!

    70% max output nerf to Goak, for 10 man, great!

    Make sure u use Goak with HR on only 2 targets and its a buff tho!

    Srsly, wtf

  6. #806
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuseishu View Post
    That is indeed odd, HR even states it his diminishing returns beyond 6, but I'm seeing it healing all targets around me for 50% of the amount healed on myself regardless of how many there are beyond 6 (The maximum I found together in shrine was 10).
    Did you check the amount it was healing YOU for though? Because I think it still should heal everyone for 50% of the amount it healed the primary target, but the TOTAL healing output (which affects the amount it means them and YOU) should be capped as if it were just healing 6 total targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    Is anyone else finding Sacred Shield to be pretty on par with Eternal Flame? I did a few tests between EF and SS and didn't find my HPS to be changing when I took either one - it stayed pretty much the same between the two.
    Since I planned on having this discussion at some point, minus tuning this is my (fairly obvious) opinion on the talents:

    Selfless Healer: Good for instant casts (PvP for instance) and mana conservation.
    Eternal Flame: Good for proactive healing and has the best Beacon healing for tanks. Also the best scaling talent for 25m.
    Sacred Shield: Good for multiple targets taking predictable damage (read: 1 tank, 2 people with debuff). Worst scaling for 25m.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-23 at 05:38 AM.

  7. #807
    I'm seriously hoping that guardian change is just worded really, really, really poorly. Hopefully it is supposed to be 30% splashed rather than 10%? Otherwise that is a horrible cooldown.

  8. #808
    Stood in the Fire Kyuuseishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Did you check the amount it was healing YOU for though? Because I think it still should heal everyone for 50% of the amount it healed the primary target, but the TOTAL healing output (which affects the amount it means them and YOU) should be capped as if it were just healing 6 total targets.
    Checked it again when I got up, it still does indeed have diminishing returns, I must of been catching too many pets in the packs by the dummies in shrine despite only seeing one when I did it on the pack of 10 last night, it is quite difficult to find a consistent pack on the PTR though. Since it was healing me for 39k regardless when I was running around finding the biggest pack I could, whelp I had my hopes up then!
    Last edited by Kyuuseishu; 2013-08-23 at 09:09 AM.

  9. #809
    Sacred Shield can be very good on fights where multiple tanks are taking large damage at the same time (like 3 tanks on Dark Animus would be the perfect example). Or a fight like Thok where there is a very high tank dot that still keeps ticking even after that tank has ceased tanking the boss (although because of the interrupt mechanic I've found that for throughput Selfless Healer destroys the other 2). Another viable fight for it is Iron Juggernaut (well basically any boss with a dot tank debuff)

    The GoAK nerf was definitely needed, although I think this new version is pretty bad. GoAK itself was consistently doing more healing than Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and AG or HTT by themselves (Shaman combined CDs trumps everything obviously). And compared to Tranq and Divine Hymn Pallies were still doing even more healing themselves during their respective CDs. The only downside was that the CD was longer, it wasn't fire and forget, and you had to put a lot of mana into it, however even with the longer CD the amount it healed per min is still more.

    With the new version I think they should definitely drop it to 3 minutes.
    Last edited by Tagzz; 2013-08-23 at 09:41 AM.
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  10. #810
    But is there really any point to having a 30% healing cooldown in addition to Avenging Wrath?

    Seems like boring gameplay to me. /shrug

  11. #811
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tagzz View Post
    The GoAK nerf was definitely needed, although I think this new version is pretty bad. GoAK itself was consistently doing more healing than Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and AG or HTT by themselves (Shaman combined CDs trumps everything obviously). And compared to Tranq and Divine Hymn Pallies were still doing even more healing themselves during their respective CDs. The only downside was that the CD was longer, it wasn't fire and forget, and you had to put a lot of mana into it, however even with the longer CD the amount it healed per min is still more.

    With the new version I think they should definitely drop it to 3 minutes.
    Its a 5 minute cooldown. It should do a good amount of healing! And it only did more than tranq cooldowns in certain situations(usually when the raid was somewhat stacked) and needed to be used in conjunction with our other cooldowns. It wasn't a consistent cooldown. The healing of it was all over the place depending on the fight.

    Agree on lowering the cooldown. They cannot justify a 5minute cooldown anymore.

  12. #812
    Just tried GoAK out on LFR, Norushen, and I did about 5 million healing by using it once. Not really sure if the change is already in effect though, but it was about the same as a druid's tranq.

  13. #813
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arayaa View Post
    I'm seriously hoping that guardian change is just worded really, really, really poorly. Hopefully it is supposed to be 30% splashed rather than 10%? Otherwise that is a horrible cooldown.
    It's not going to be 30% splashed. The reason GoAK was causing so much input lag and the reason it was such a hit and miss cooldown was because it would trigger off of every heal including AoE and then proc a new AoE per target that you healed with your original AoE.

    So let's say I pop Guardian, then I do the following:

    100k heal on self, 50k heal on 5 targets for a total of 350k and 6 events. Then you would have:

    1) Guardian would then duplicate the heal: It would heal me for 100k, and the 5 targets for 50k - 6 events for 350k
    2) Guardian would then proc a new AoE on me: It would heal 5 nearby targets for 10k - another 5 events for 50k
    3) For each of the targets I hit for 50k, Guardian would then heal 5 nearby targets for another 5k - that makes for 25 events for a total of 125k.

    So 6 events became 36 events, and Guardian now turned a 350k cast into a 525k heal. For that matter, notice how the increase gets pretty pitiful beyond the initial heal duplication. It would be somewhat better (as far as I know the splash is uncapped) with more players, but the number of events would increase dramatically. For N targets healed that are stacked together, GoAK would have created N^2 additional events. For a 25m raid, healing 25 targets will cause 625 additional events.

    I could try to do some more basic math on the old guardian but since it's gone and 99.99(repeating)% gone for good, I'm not going to bother.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-23 at 10:12 AM.

  14. #814
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merberan View Post
    Just tried GoAK out on LFR, Norushen, and I did about 5 million healing by using it once. Not really sure if the change is already in effect though, but it was about the same as a druid's tranq.
    I don't think the new build is up yet.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Sacred Shield: Good for multiple targets taking predictable damage (read: 1 tank, 2 people with debuff). Worst scaling for 25m.
    Yeah but my point is even with it's "bad scaling" I didn't find my HPS to be affected when I switched between Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Tagzz View Post

    The GoAK nerf was definitely needed, although I think this new version is pretty bad. GoAK itself was consistently doing more healing than Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and AG or HTT by themselves (Shaman combined CDs trumps everything obviously). And compared to Tranq and Divine Hymn Pallies were still doing even more healing themselves during their respective CDs. The only downside was that the CD was longer, it wasn't fire and forget, and you had to put a lot of mana into it, however even with the longer CD the amount it healed per min is still more.
    How was the GoAK nerf needed?

    1)It has almost double the cd of Tranq/Hymn/Revival/Tide so you can't compare it with one use
    2)It has an effective range of 10 yards
    3)It needs constant damage for 15 seconds
    4)It needs you to constantly pump mana intensive healing into it(21.6k Holy Radiances) while the other 4 cds have a cost of under 20k and that's it.

    In most encounters we tested in 25 man i couldn't get more then 2 mil healing from it. Please don't tell me you're talking Malkorok numbers where all it did was actually overheal the green shielded people.

  17. #817
    Why cant they just scrap the whole guardian thing and replace with with raid cooldown similar to style of the 4.0 holy radiance, but with longer cd and more healing? Even if it's past mechanics phase they started fixing spells so it's least what they could do to try to solve it.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    How was the GoAK nerf needed?

    1)It has almost double the cd of Tranq/Hymn/Revival/Tide so you can't compare it with one use
    2)It has an effective range of 10 yards
    3)It needs constant damage for 15 seconds
    4)It needs you to constantly pump mana intensive healing into it(21.6k Holy Radiances) while the other 4 cds have a cost of under 20k and that's it.

    In most encounters we tested in 25 man i couldn't get more then 2 mil healing from it. Please don't tell me you're talking Malkorok numbers where all it did was actually overheal the green shielded people.
    You can't directly compare spells across classes, and you are being particularly fallacious in trying to compare GoAK to Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT. Those are the raid cooldowns for their respective specs; GoAK is not and never was designed to be the Paladin raid cooldown. If you really need to compare Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT, you need to compare them to Devo Aura - that is the Paladin raid cooldown. GoAK is a personal throughput cooldown, more along the lines of Power Infusion/Ascendance/Primal Elementalist/TFT, etc. It's completely ridiculous to expect it to be as strong as primary raid cooldowns.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    You can't directly compare spells across classes, and you are being particularly fallacious in trying to compare GoAK to Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT. Those are the raid cooldowns for their respective specs; GoAK is not and never was designed to be the Paladin raid cooldown. If you really need to compare Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT, you need to compare them to Devo Aura - that is the Paladin raid cooldown. GoAK is a personal throughput cooldown, more along the lines of Power Infusion/Ascendance/Primal Elementalist/TFT, etc. It's completely ridiculous to expect it to be as strong as primary raid cooldowns.
    I actually can compare it with anything i want.

    We already compared DA with those a billion times and DA still sucks, but DA cannot be buffed without allowing encounter mechanics to be ignored. For DA to prevent any similar to how much Healing Tide heals for very many abilities would need to have their damage vastly increased on 25 man or risk them becoming irrelevant.

    As for comparing GoAK with either of the others,in what way does GoAk resemble either of the others? GoAK represents for both prot and ret their most powerful cd. Its bad enough on the PTR without a stupid nerf like this.

  20. #820
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    You can't directly compare spells across classes, and you are being particularly fallacious in trying to compare GoAK to Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT. Those are the raid cooldowns for their respective specs; GoAK is not and never was designed to be the Paladin raid cooldown. If you really need to compare Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT, you need to compare them to Devo Aura - that is the Paladin raid cooldown. GoAK is a personal throughput cooldown, more along the lines of Power Infusion/Ascendance/Primal Elementalist/TFT, etc. It's completely ridiculous to expect it to be as strong as primary raid cooldowns.
    You mean like you are doing in the Shaman forums? Do us all a favor, Tib, and spare us.

    If GotAK needs to be more in line with the cooldowns you mentioned then it needs a cooldown closer to those mentioned cooldowns as well as buffs to be in line with those cooldowns.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-08-23 at 04:27 PM.

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