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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    On farm yes, but on progress when fights last longer and people make more mistakes we will most likely need all the spirit we can get for SS or EF builds to support very mana heavy HR-HR-HS rotation whole fight.
    It depends on group, Im lucky to have a good group,
    If you in a pug or a new group with some weak players than yes you need more spirit.

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by zepyjoe View Post
    It depends on group, Im lucky to have a good group,
    If you in a pug or a new group with some weak players than yes you need more spirit.
    You do realise that most people who post and contribute here are in heroic guilds pushing for good ranks? They don't pug or play with weak players.

    Your comment is so out of place...

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Henriksson View Post
    You do realise that most people who post and contribute here are in heroic guilds pushing for good ranks? They don't pug or play with weak players.

    Your comment is so out of place...
    No need to be rude!
    If everyone here was in a top ranked heroic guild then they have been on the ptr from day 1 and wouldn't need help from us common people.

  4. #1004
    Quote Originally Posted by zepyjoe View Post
    No need to be rude!
    If everyone here was in a top ranked heroic guild then they have been on the ptr from day 1 and wouldn't need help from us common people.
    The person who you quoted, Doctorant; I'm pretty sure he was talking about the need to have more spirit during heroic progression & not having more spirit in pugs.

  5. #1005
    I meant pug as in short one raider not a complete pug group(i worded it wrong sorry).
    with the HS mana change mana shouldn't be an issue, a few pages back there was a long discussion about the 5000 or so less spirit we need just from HS.

  6. #1006
    The majority of the people posting from PTR experience are pugging zero raid members ever. We don't have bad groups. I'm still planning to be reasonably heavy spirit until fight experience proves otherwise. Being able to spam relentlessly and not oom is priceless in undergeared hard modes.
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  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Being able to spam relentlessly and not oom is priceless in undergeared hard modes.
    This is exactly what I was talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zepyjoe View Post
    I meant pug as in short one raider not a complete pug group(i worded it wrong sorry).
    with the HS mana change mana shouldn't be an issue, a few pages back there was a long discussion about the 5000 or so less spirit we need just from HS.
    No, we are never short one raider. But mistakes happen when you clear trough heroics in first week. Those mistakes happen to every guild in a world because fights are new whether you were in PTR or not.

    However, we still don't want to wipe to those mistakes, which makes me (and most likely almost every top 10man guild holy paladin) to have spirit > mastery/haste build.

    I will personally go Spirit > Mastery > Haste but some people most likely will go haste-heavy. However, for progression spirit is invaluable stat to have.
    Last edited by Doctorant; 2013-09-01 at 08:56 AM.

  8. #1008
    I will most likely be pushing haste up to EF breakpoints then stacking Mastery on top. It's been a while since I looked it up but I think there is a +4 EF ticks breakpoints @ around 7.1k haste ((with 5% raid haste) confirmation, anyone?) so will most likely go for that which should be pretty easy to get.
    Last edited by Puffpower; 2013-09-01 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Wording.

  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffpower View Post
    I will most likely be pushing haste up to EF breakpoints then stacking Mastery on top. It's been a while since I looked it up but I think there is a +4 EF ticks breakpoints @ around 7.1k haste ((with 5% raid haste) confirmation, anyone?) so will most likely go for that which should be pretty easy to get.
    If my math is correct it should be 7170 haste. This should also give you 5.13 s HS.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Tungzten View Post
    If my math is correct it should be 7170 haste. This should also give you 5.13 s HS.
    Just as you posted this I remembered this from Totemspot which has them all listed.

  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    This is exactly what I was talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, we are never short one raider. But mistakes happen when you clear trough heroics in first week. Those mistakes happen to every guild in a world because fights are new whether you were in PTR or not.

    However, we still don't want to wipe to those mistakes, which makes me (and most likely almost every top 10man guild holy paladin) to have spirit > mastery/haste build.

    I will personally go Spirit > Mastery > Haste but some people most likely will go haste-heavy. However, for progression spirit is invaluable stat to have.
    Was thinking about the changing ill need to make to gear when SoO comes out, currrently sitting at 11k spirit unbuffed (im undergeared atm but trying to heal 13/13 heroic to gear up for before SoO so everyone else in the raid is gear so things die fast) but I was thinking will we need to change our spirit levels for the normal clear of SoO or would it be best to keep the low levels of spirit and high amounts of mastery?

    I haven't been on the PTR but i've seen some videos of the fights and with a fully heroic geared raid normals shouldn't really be that much of an issue? I don't know what the later fights are like, would we be needing more spirit for them so would changing to a more spirit build be better for the later fights on normal? Obviously for heroic ill be grabbing more spirit due to the reasons said above but im really asking do you guys think it'll be needed for clearing normal on the first week with a fully heroic geared roster?

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    Was thinking about the changing ill need to make to gear when SoO comes out, currrently sitting at 11k spirit unbuffed (im undergeared atm but trying to heal 13/13 heroic to gear up for before SoO so everyone else in the raid is gear so things die fast) but I was thinking will we need to change our spirit levels for the normal clear of SoO or would it be best to keep the low levels of spirit and high amounts of mastery?

    I haven't been on the PTR but i've seen some videos of the fights and with a fully heroic geared raid normals shouldn't really be that much of an issue? I don't know what the later fights are like, would we be needing more spirit for them so would changing to a more spirit build be better for the later fights on normal? Obviously for heroic ill be grabbing more spirit due to the reasons said above but im really asking do you guys think it'll be needed for clearing normal on the first week with a fully heroic geared roster?
    At least I'm going to normals with the gear I have now (Spirit -> Mastery), which is also the gear for HC modes. I see no point reforging for normals. I don't care about meter padding because normal bosses will go down anyway.

    However, haste breakpoints might be more worth now as previous posters said, need to think about those but in the mean time I'm sticking to spirit, then mastery.

  13. #1013
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    I'm probably not going much more than 15k spirit(16k tops) unless I find I actually find I need extra spirit. I am also definitely debating going for some haste breakpoints when the patch hits.

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I'm probably not going much more than 15k spirit(16k tops) unless I find I actually find I need extra spirit. I am also definitely debating going for some haste breakpoints when the patch hits.
    Yeah, well of course it remains to be seen how much spirit is needed, but it's quite obvious in 25 you need less spirit than in 10.

    I play 10 (no mana tides / innervates for me) so I'm going full out on spirit because until now I've always needed all that spirit on progress (excluding Lei Shen).

    Maybe some of the theorycrafters here ( looking at you Bouch, nice work btw so far) could compute is it worth to go for the haste breakpoints or not and how it would affect HPS/HPM. It is obvious that getting more haste increases HPS and decreases most likely HPM but how much would be nice to see.
    Last edited by Doctorant; 2013-09-02 at 05:54 AM. Reason: Spelling

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    This is true. However Paladins are in a really good spot in 5.4. They're definitely competing with Resto Shaman on 1 or 2 fights for that top spot.
    Really? All the talk was that Paladin heals are mediocre in 5.4 compared to druid/shaman.

  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Yeah, well of course it remains to be seen how much spirit is needed, but it's quite obvious in 25 you need less spirit than in 10.

    I play 10 (no mana tides / innervates for me) so I'm going full out on spirit because until now I've always needed all that spirit on progress (excluding Lei Shen).

    Maybe some of the theorycrafters here ( looking at you Bouch, nice work btw so far) could compute is it worth to go for the haste breakpoints or not and how it would affect HPS/HPM. It is obvious that getting more haste increases HPS and decreases most likely HPM but how much would be nice to see.

    I never have agreed that 10m requires more spirit and you really won't convince me otherwise, unless the 25m is doing something weird like having 5mana tides/hymn.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-09-02 at 02:13 PM.

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I never have agreed that 10m requires more spirit and you really won't convince me otherwise, unless the 25m is doing something weird like having 5mana tides/hymn.
    And I didn't say you would have agreed on anything like that. It was my own statement.

    My statement was based on armories and conversations with top paladins which indicates that 10-holys go with all out spirit and 25-pallies with little bit less spirit and more mastery. It was the case on progress and on farm.

    EDIT: In first phrase "you" is passive, not meaning you.
    Last edited by Doctorant; 2013-09-02 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Clarification

  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    My statement was based on armories and conversations with top paladins which indicates that 10-holys go with all out spirit and 25-pallies with little bit less spirit and more mastery. It was the case on progress and on farm.
    From what I know on progress 25 went all out with spirit this past tier also.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    From what I know on progress 25 went all out with spirit this past tier also.
    Not all what I've heard but I may have generalized too much. Sorry bout that.

  20. #1020


    My interpretation of my chart is:

    -Dropping Spirit like it’s hot with Selfless Healer will top output when HR and LoD hit 6 targets. But if you loose LoD targets it drops quickly.

    -For Sacred Shield there is little gain or difference in stacking Mastery/Haste. Break points for extra SS tick was meaningless.

    -There is no clear benefit from hitting the EF breakpoints either (15%, 25%, 35%, 45%) largely due to the fact so much of our healing is based on how many targets our HR hits more so than the extra EF tick.

    -EF continues to look the most versatile tier 45 talent but its scaling with haste is not linear and sticking with Mastery will give the most reliable HPS boost.

    -SH can be very powerful and is the least mana intensive spec but to pull it off you need a stacked raid. For 25man if you can count on 6 targets getting hit by LoD/HR you won’t be in a bad place in comparison to say, SS.

    -Going no spirit leaves you with 4k less mp5. SH spec is 11k mp5 cheaper to execute than EF rotation with double HR.

    Edits: Corrected chart. Red is Not True!
    Last edited by bouchbagette; 2013-09-05 at 01:07 AM.
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