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  1. #1021
    So, from those charts, for EF / SS the choice between haste and mastery is largely irrelevant from a pure hps standpoint. The difference in numbers is small enough not to matter. The difference will be in the other tangible benefits. Mastery will still allow you to spam heals for shields on stacked fights. Haste will allow you to be more reactive.

    I'm still stuck for a decision on 10s. I think ultimately I will have to try both mastery and haste and see how they work for me personally.

    Out of interest what is the HS cooldown at the top haste level you use (I'm assuming you're using raid buffs etc that will need to be discounted)? The benefits of a short cooldown HS in 10s aren't reflected too well by simple hps. Even now I find myself waiting on the HS cooldown half a year after I lost the set bonus. If I would get even close to 4 seconds again I'd jump at the chance.

  2. #1022
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    So, from those charts, for EF / SS the choice between haste and mastery is largely irrelevant from a pure hps standpoint. The difference in numbers is small enough not to matter. The difference will be in the other tangible benefits. Mastery will still allow you to spam heals for shields on stacked fights. Haste will allow you to be more reactive.

    I'm still stuck for a decision on 10s. I think ultimately I will have to try both mastery and haste and see how they work for me personally.

    Out of interest what is the HS cooldown at the top haste level you use (I'm assuming you're using raid buffs etc that will need to be discounted)? The benefits of a short cooldown HS in 10s aren't reflected too well by simple hps. Even now I find myself waiting on the HS cooldown half a year after I lost the set bonus. If I would get even close to 4 seconds again I'd jump at the chance.

    I think a balance between both mastery and haste will be best over just going completely one over the other. I don't see fully going haste as beneficial, just mostly to meet certain breakpoints and then mastery the rest of the way. I will probably be switching most of my gems to focusing on Int though.

    Kolori posted the HS breakpoints in the other thread.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063

    I don't think going for the 4 second breakpoint would be beneficial. 5.5 and 5 second haste levels are doable though.

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    So, from those charts, for EF / SS the choice between haste and mastery is largely irrelevant from a pure hps standpoint. The difference in numbers is small enough not to matter. The difference will be in the other tangible benefits. Mastery will still allow you to spam heals for shields on stacked fights. Haste will allow you to be more reactive.

    I'm still stuck for a decision on 10s. I think ultimately I will have to try both mastery and haste and see how they work for me personally.

    Out of interest what is the HS cooldown at the top haste level you use (I'm assuming you're using raid buffs etc that will need to be discounted)? The benefits of a short cooldown HS in 10s aren't reflected too well by simple hps. Even now I find myself waiting on the HS cooldown half a year after I lost the set bonus. If I would get even close to 4 seconds again I'd jump at the chance.
    Getting HS down to 4 seconds without CDs would take 50% haste from gear, or 21250 rating. 4.5 would take 33% haste, or 14167 rating. Chances are you can hit the 4.5 mark if you really wanted, but beyond that the gains aren't exactly stellar.

    If you're angling for an SS or EF breakpoint in the 14000 range, EF gets its 55% breakpoint (assuming SoI and spell haste buff) at 14535 haste. SS has a breakpoint at 50% spell haste, which is at 12688 assuming SoI and RB. Its next breakpoint is at 70%, which is 20053 haste rating from gear with SoI and RB.

    Or if you want to look at any of the EF and SS breakpoints (ignoring Divine Favor being up) then Theck did the math on that here.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-09-02 at 11:37 PM.
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  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Not all what I've heard but I may have generalized too much. Sorry bout that.
    I didn't see any pallies not going full spirit in top level progression this tier (25 man), a few of them used some purified gems to match bonuses but never spirit/mastery. The full Mastery Gemming or Mostly Mastery Gemming didn't appear at all until the top guilds were in farm. That doesn't mean there weren't a few that didn't go full spirit, but I know of none.
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  5. #1025
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    So i'm prob going after 20.5% haste on gear . With a raid buff that should get HS to 5 sec and EF it's next tick. Then i'll go after mastery and perhgaps even crit over haste gear at that point as long as the spirit feels right. If not then crit will be last of coarse. I will eat/flask intel and play gemming by ear ( likely to be all intel as well unless spirit is a problem)

    Going after more haste then that seems pointless as it hits both break points pretty well there and could bring about a nice balance.
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  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    So i'm prob going after 20.5% haste on gear . With a raid buff that should get HS to 5 sec and EF it's next tick. Then i'll go after mastery and perhgaps even crit over haste gear at that point as long as the spirit feels right. If not then crit will be last of coarse. I will eat/flask intel and play gemming by ear ( likely to be all intel as well unless spirit is a problem)

    Going after more haste then that seems pointless as it hits both break points pretty well there and could bring about a nice balance.
    Did you include SoI's 10% spell haste in your calculations? If you're angling for the 25% breakpoint then with the raid buff and SoI that BP is met at 3506 haste, or 8.25%. Even if you meant to go for the 35% BP, you actually won't need 20.5 haste on gear to get to there. With the raid buff and SoI active, you'll only need 7170 haste, or ~16.87%. (See http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/11/21...for-tankadins/ for full tables). That would put HS's CD at 5.13 seconds. The extra 1330 haste to get HS down to 5 seconds shouldn't be much of a problem though. But yes, after that the returns don't really seem to be there.
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  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Did you include SoI's 10% spell haste in your calculations? If you're angling for the 25% breakpoint then with the raid buff and SoI that BP is met at 3506 haste, or 8.25%. Even if you meant to go for the 35% BP, you actually won't need 20.5 haste on gear to get to there. With the raid buff and SoI active, you'll only need 7170 haste, or ~16.87%. (See http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/11/21...for-tankadins/ for full tables). That would put HS's CD at 5.13 seconds. The extra 1330 haste to get HS down to 5 seconds shouldn't be much of a problem though. But yes, after that the returns don't really seem to be there.
    Forgot all about the 10% from soi. I'll have to relook at it since I know SoI and raid buff don't effect HS.
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  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    Forgot all about the 10% from soi. I'll have to relook at it since I know SoI and raid buff don't effect HS.
    I already gave you the info in that post. 7170 haste will get you to EF's 35% breakpoint with SoI and the raid buff. Another 1330 haste (which adds up to 8500) will get you to 20% for HS's 5 second CD.
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  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by dragconus View Post
    Getting my HS down to 4 sec would make me unstoppable in a pvp/pve quick dps situation. But would be way to demanding getting to. I'm still going to go for 20.5% haste on gear though . If it feels questionable after that then i'll make some other changes. Crit is kinda ehh anyway but at some point after the sweet spot crit will be better then haste
    There is no need to get to 20.5% for EF or for HS. Where on earth are you getting the extra .5 from? Unless you're accounting for 20ms lag or something?

    Getting HS down to 4 seconds requires 50% haste (21250 rating). Not likely to happen, nor would it make you unstoppable. It would likely make for great burst potential with HA, SH, and the HS and Harsh Words glyphs though.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-09-03 at 02:21 PM.
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  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    There is no need to get to 20.5% for EF or for HS. Where on earth are you getting the extra .5 from? Unless you're accounting for 20ms lag or something?

    Getting HS down to 4 seconds requires 50% haste (21250 rating). Not likely to happen, nor would it make you unstoppable. It would likely make for great burst potential with HA, SH, and the HS and Harsh Words glyphs though.
    I didn't read everything at once .I for some reason thought HS would break down like hot break points instead of like spells so a 5.13 time on HS will be fine . The .5 % was in fact for lag.

    And I did say quick situations . Heroics, duels ect. And I would actually use sanctified wrath with it and just HS Denounce HS denounce as at that point it would refresh that fast. I used to do it when we had the four sec set bonus. I was in crap gear doing 130k+ on heroic bosses. Ah the good times haha.
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  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I think a balance between both mastery and haste will be best over just going completely one over the other. I don't see fully going haste as beneficial, just mostly to meet certain breakpoints and then mastery the rest of the way. I will probably be switching most of my gems to focusing on Int though.

    Kolori posted the HS breakpoints in the other thread.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post21834063

    I don't think going for the 4 second breakpoint would be beneficial. 5.5 and 5 second haste levels are doable though.
    You have to give up an insane amount of mastery for 5s CD on HS, so I wouldn't bother going for it. I might go for 5.5, but we'll see.

  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    You have to give up an insane amount of mastery for 5s CD on HS, so I wouldn't bother going for it. I might go for 5.5, but we'll see.
    It really isn't that insane. I'll be giving up more to go for int over mastery. Playing it by ear and haven't decided yet.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-09-04 at 01:39 AM.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    It really isn't that insane. I'll be giving up more to go for int over mastery. Playing it by ear and haven't decided yet.
    Not sure what your definition of insane is, but I was playing around with it on PTR trying to get to the 5s CD and I had to reforge every single piece of gear to haste and I still wasn't there - so I would have to re-gem as well. To me that is an insane amount of mastery to give up. Not worth it considering the numbers don't even show a significant boost to HPS by doing so.

  14. #1034
    Insane is determining your level of haste based off of a nice even cd of holy shock. I don't even know why anyone would ever discuss haste levels in that relation. That is just not how you play a holy pally. #doingitwrong

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Bythelights View Post
    Insane is determining your level of haste based off of a nice even cd of holy shock. I don't even know why anyone would ever discuss haste levels in that relation. That is just not how you play a holy pally. #doingitwrong
    Listen to ^ this guy. He's #1 holy pally in the US right now.

    On a side note, I was thinking about just rolling with SH and since almost every piece of gear has spirit on it, just reforge the spirit to haste until you get like ~9.5-10k spirit. That should be plenty of haste. Getting 8.5k haste is really not even a challenge right now. So that would bring HS down to 5 sec and idk what to judgement (i think the same). So a HS HR J LoD rotation and all of a sudden your numbers are big even a not that stacked fight.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Sashwa View Post
    Listen to ^ this guy. He's #1 holy pally in the US right now.
    He's #1 holy pally by your standards I guess? Didn't know there was a rank of best holy pallys out there :P and just because he does good on the meter doesn't make his opinion better than others. In fact, his reply to this thread doesn't add anything but what it looks a trolling attempt.

    On topic: I like the fact that we have another stat to work around, adds some complexity to the gearing up part as well as versatility. Haste and mastery are both good stats now and I will probably aim for some sort of balance, aiming for 14ticks of EF, lowering HS cd to 5sec, and then get as much mastery as possible.

  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by carinyitus View Post
    In fact, his reply to this thread doesn't add anything but what it looks a trolling attempt.
    He makes a good point. There is no point at balancing your haste around an even 5sec HS CD. What do you gain over 5.1? As your haste scales up so does your HR cast time and thus your rotation does not benefit at all from the 5sec HS.

    HS#1 @ 0sec -> HR#1 @ 1.1sec -> HR#2 @ 2.9sec -> LoD/EF @ 4.7 -> HS#2 @5.8sec. (this is at 35% haste). So what do you gain from the 5sec HS cd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sashwa View Post
    On a side note, I was thinking about just rolling with SH and since almost every piece of gear has spirit on it, just reforge the spirit to haste until you get like ~9.5-10k spirit. That should be plenty of haste.
    Selfless Healer is the only tier 45 talent that really has a true difference in stat scaling. Mastery scales much better with SH.
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  18. #1038
    1 Intelect is bringing higher healing output than 2 mastery raiting correct? Anyone can say by how much? For EF spec.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhall View Post
    1 Intelect is bringing higher healing output than 2 mastery raiting correct? Anyone can say by how much? For EF spec.
    Not true. Intellect is not > 2 of our major secondary stats. It isn't a blow out but close. I added a build to my chart to show the difference. While doing so I found a typo in my formula's and corrected them which unfortunatly changed some things. I didnt like how the scaling came out and now I know why it seemed off. Anyway:



    Here are the major changes:

    Haste does indeed scale well with EF and going from 22% to 41% haste (in exchange for Mastery) is an 8%-10% gain in effective HPS. It is also 16.5% more expensive.

    Hitting the 25% or 35% EF break points does give you a small bump in HPS but there is an upward trend in HPS with more Haste anyway.

    Sacred Shield does scale with Haste but not nearly as well as EF. Hitting the 30% haste break point is about a 5% gain in HPS but going beyond or further below has little effect on output.

    Swapping secondary stats for intellect is a small loss in HPS. It is not a huge loss but 1 intellect does not equal 2 mastery or haste and thus yellow gems > orange gems. But ultimately it will be Purple/Green gems that you may go with depending on how much spirit you want.

    SH spec without Spirit for stacked fight still has great output with low mana cost.
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  20. #1040
    Nice table again, Bouchbagette.

    Could you possibly add a few things to Eternal Flame tho?

    25% Haste > Int > Spirit > Mastery

    35% Haste

    35% Haste > Int > Spirit > Mastery

    And...

    Is it possible to show the matchup between 3 HP EF usage and 1-2?

    And...

    Shouldn't the DB1 in Eternal Flame be DB2, as you have 2 HR listed in the rotation? (Maybe less if you let HP push an HR out)
    Last edited by Rathimis; 2013-09-05 at 06:59 AM.

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