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  1. #1041
    Hi guys! I have been playing holy since i started playing in 5.2 I'm in a 11/13 HC guild trying to kill lei shen but i still do have a lot of problems with theorycrafting and patch notes ( since i don´t have enough time to test in the ptr or read 52 pages of a thread :P ). I was wondering if you guys could simplify me what'll be the best build for my ten man semi hardcore guild. Like the standar build for most of the fights.

    Sorry if my english is bad (i'm from argentina) or i posted this on a wrong thread, i'm also new to MMO-Champion Forums.

  2. #1042
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kite59 View Post
    I was wondering if you guys could simplify me what'll be the best build for my ten man semi hardcore guild. Like the standar build for most of the fights.
    To put it short that is what the thread is figuring out and if you read even the last few pages of the thread you'll see it hasn't been quite figured out. Unfortunately you will have to see for yourself which build you want to try most until a few weeks into the patch after which most of the community will probably have settled on a "standard" build and rotation which will be posted and seen.

  3. #1043
    The Patient Piitz's Avatar
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    So the recent changes to HR/LH, are they already live on the PTR? If they are, buff or nerf? And what's the reason for the change? Input lag?
    Last edited by Piitz; 2013-09-05 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Spellinglol

  4. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piitz View Post
    So the recent changes to HR/LH, are they already live on the PTR? If they are they buffs or nerfs? And what's the reason for the change? Input lag?
    Input lag mainly, they've been live on the PTR for a little while now. I haven't actually done testing with them so someone else can answer the last part, even though at a guess it depends, since on groups past 6 it lessens control on IH uptime.

  5. #1045
    Bouche, on the spreadsheet you posted you have the same value for mastery on the 35% and 40% haste builds under EF. Not sure which one is the correct value or if that impacted the calculation but assuming a constant stat budget the 40% run should have less mastery than the 35% run.



    Thanks for doing all the work for us!


    Edit: I snipped the SS section and it appears there also.
    Last edited by Lucyrotten; 2013-09-05 at 04:20 PM.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Bouche, on the spreadsheet you posted you have the same value for mastery on the 35% and 40% haste builds under EF. Not sure which one is the correct value or if that impacted the calculation but assuming a constant stat budget the 40% run should have less mastery than the 35% run.



    Thanks for doing all the work for us!


    Edit: I snipped the SS section and it appears there also.
    I'm not 100% sure, but assuming gem priority was the only change while reforging stayed the same, it makes sense that mastery was unchanged. No mastery was being gemmed for in either set, but int>haste gems in the second, resulting in less haste from gems but the same haste and mastery from gear.

  7. #1047
    Pretty much every value in it is wrong, all the values are absurdly low. You get more than that with a rotation that does not include prism.

    -Swapping secondary stats with intellect is not an hps loss, going int or not depends on the boss fight
    -On paper haste over mastery can never be an hps loss if it's tested with equal spirit, problem with it is it costs alot more and is inconsistent
    -SH is not the best, even with low spirit

    Might be other things wrong too this is just what i could see at first glance


  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    Pretty much every value in it is wrong, all the values are absurdly low. You get more than that with a rotation that does not include prism.

    -Swapping secondary stats with intellect is not an hps loss, going int or not depends on the boss fight
    -On paper haste over mastery can never be an hps loss if it's tested with equal spirit, problem with it is it costs alot more and is inconsistent
    -SH is not the best, even with low spirit

    Might be other things wrong too this is just what i could see at first glance
    The number are all effective healing which is why they are "low". All my numbers for overhealing are from approximate averages from months of ToT and the limited raiding I did on the PTR. The rest of the number are pulled right from ptr and applied to simple math. Adding heals and dividing my cast times to determine HPS. You can argue for using non-averaged overhealing numbers but that doesn't make my numbers "all wrong". If you believe SH without spirit is not our best sustainable output show me some numbers.

    As for Lucyrottens question the difference is Haste to Intel as Pao mentioned and mastery wasn't touched. I didn't add a column for spell power as they were all the same except that the INT > Spirit > Haste build has 1k more SP.
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  9. #1049
    There hasn't been much commentary on how HR feels as a smart heal since they made the change. Does it feel like a buff (less overheal) or a nerf (not rolling mastery on everyone). Should Daybreak follow into the capped smart heal category. That was how we always wanted the spell to work given its absurd overheal. Seems silly it's the one they left untouched.

    As for haste I'm probably going to go for the 14 ticks break point and see how it feels. EF will be the standard talent, switching to SS on the appropriate fights and SH on the one appropriate fight (spell lock right). Will at least feel a bit more varied than now where it is EF regardless.

    Is HP still the go to spell next tier aside from a couple LH will be strong on?
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-09-05 at 07:59 PM.

  10. #1050
    I'm going to go for Spirit > haste to 7170 > mastery and see how it goes.

    I will most likely gem spirit / haste, spirit / int and spirit.

    Feel we're going to need a lot of spirit, I'm currently running just under 13k spirit and 41% mastery in 10 man for farming, but don't think this will be to viable in Seige

  11. #1051
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    Pretty much every value in it is wrong, all the values are absurdly low. You get more than that with a rotation that does not include prism.
    Personally I would not include Prism in a spreadsheet, at all.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Personally I would not include Prism in a spreadsheet, at all.
    This would probably be more optimal, as we could then judge that tier of talents on their own merits

    Should be DB2 as well for those rotations showing 2 HRs being used, which is leading to small HPS decrease in those number calculations
    Last edited by Rathimis; 2013-09-05 at 09:27 PM.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathimis View Post
    This would probably be more optimal, as we could then judge that tier of talents on their own merits

    Should be DB2 as well for those rotations showing 2 HRs being used, which is leading to small HPS decrease in those number calculations
    I did that intentionally as I have mixed feelings about it. Realistically we have no chance to maintain a double HR rotation for fights 8 min+ so my way of knocking it down was to do single daybreak procs to allow skipping a HR.

    These are charts to help decide between specs and stats, not to compare classes and I have added things like beacon heals, daybreak procs, prism, over healing etc because I think it helps scale the numbers more appropriately.
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  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    If you believe SH without spirit is not our best sustainable output show me some numbers.
    This is without Holy Prism in the rotation: http://i.imgur.com/27UomrB.png

    Last edited by Kolori; 2013-09-05 at 11:27 PM.


  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    I did that intentionally as I have mixed feelings about it. Realistically we have no chance to maintain a double HR rotation for fights 8 min+ so my way of knocking it down was to do single daybreak procs to allow skipping a HR.

    These are charts to help decide between specs and stats, not to compare classes and I have added things like beacon heals, daybreak procs, prism, over healing etc because I think it helps scale the numbers more appropriately.
    Hrmm. Thing is the sustainability is shown the HPM. The rotation isn't ever actually changing is it? It's always going to be HS HR HR (at least for the spreadsheets sake)... so you're just leaving out some of the HPS of the rotation/build and it's not even effecting the HPM as DB is free heals and both HR are calculated as cast?

  16. #1056
    This may have been mentioned earlier but how many targets are you assuming to hit with your HR and LoD spells?

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    This may have been mentioned earlier but how many targets are you assuming to hit with your HR and LoD spells?
    It assumes you hit 6 people, which will happen 90% of the time on 25 man. On 10 man HR will not hit 6 but LoD should.


  18. #1058
    Ya! I chose to do so because assessing healing through a rotation is already flawed and it was my way to add a non rotation component. It is perfect and I see why you disagree.
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  19. #1059
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    Ya! I chose to do so because assessing healing through a rotation is already flawed and it was my way to add a non rotation component. It is perfect and I see why you disagree.
    The reason I would not is because I would rather see the rotations compared against each other, because after all, the main concern with secondary stats is the "filler" component and getting the most throughput/mana that way. HPrism I see more as a CD that relies more on encounter timing and reaction than stats or its inclusion in a rotation, though I do have HPrism scale factors (separately) in my spreadsheet.

    [edit] Updated OP and added the relevant raid healing glyphs.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-09-05 at 11:35 PM.

  20. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kite59 View Post
    Hi guys! I have been playing holy since i started playing in 5.2 I'm in a 11/13 HC guild trying to kill lei shen but i still do have a lot of problems with theorycrafting and patch notes ( since i don´t have enough time to test in the ptr or read 52 pages of a thread :P ). I was wondering if you guys could simplify me what'll be the best build for my ten man semi hardcore guild. Like the standar build for most of the fights.

    Sorry if my english is bad (i'm from argentina) or i posted this on a wrong thread, i'm also new to MMO-Champion Forums.
    Hola soy de Costa Rica y llevo un poco más leído acá, la verdad parece que el mejor built del PTR es el mismo de ahora, full mastery y Eternal Flame...

    Sorry but is faster and easier in spanish...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    It assumes you hit 6 people, which will happen 90% of the time on 25 man. On 10 man HR will not hit 6 but LoD should.
    Ok in 10 man would be better use the glyph of LoD...

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